Trenton, NJ Teen Curfew: Teens Out Past Midnight Will Go to Church
84 replies, posted
[quote]
[URL="http://nj.com/mercer"]TRENTON[/URL] — Starting July 1, Trenton police officers will enforce a new curfew against any teenager under the age of 18 that is out in public after midnight.
The teens, though, will not be going to jail - they're going to church.
And police will call their parents too, Police Director Ernest Parrey Jr. said Wednesday.
The main effort, he said, is to offer the teens counseling and aid through area churches. Officers will take the teens right to churches or faith-based organizations, the director said.
The move comes after several recent shootings - and the shooting deaths of two teens under the age of 18 in the past three months.
[/quote]
[URL="http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2016/06/trenton_police_will_begin_curfews_july_1_for_teens.html"]Souce[/URL]
I wasn't aware kids out past midnight all needed religious "counseling" and aid
[QUOTE=lope;50532482][URL="http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2016/06/trenton_police_will_begin_curfews_july_1_for_teens.html"]Souce[/URL]
I wasn't aware kids out past midnight all needed religious "counseling" and aid[/QUOTE]
Maybe if they are having gunfights as past-time.
Edit: I can imagine this is not to go to get preached at, but more like counseling. Around here atleast the parishes/kongregation also do humanitarian aid to those in distress/need and has nothing to with [B][I]praise the lordah[/I][/B]
Shouldn't there be separation between church and state? Legally requiring anyone to go to a place of faith is a bit much.
so what if you're of a faith that doesn't have a place of worship in the area, like Buddhism or if you're atheist?
surely they can't force someone to go to a place of worship if they don't follow that religion.
Guys are worried about kids being forced to go to church but you gotta realize, this is a [I]punishment[/I] :v:
[QUOTE=Retardation;50532538]going outside after midnight makes you a criminal[/QUOTE]
A lot of places in the US have curfews for minors unattended by adults.
I don't see a problem with it, but FP being full of minors I'm sure I'll be one of the few okay with this.
I mean they have the right idea: rehabilitation through counseling rather than penalizing them would probably improve them for the long run. Churches just happen to be free to seek that sort of aid through. School counselors are typically overwhelmed and underfunded and finding a standalone professional counselor costs money that any curfew-breaking minors won't have.
As long as the approach is one of getting them to interact and rehabilitate in that sort of environment rather than "You need Jeezus in your life" then there shouldn't be much of an issue in the long term.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50532547]A lot of places in the US have curfews for minors unattended by adults.
I don't see a problem with it, but FP being full of minors I'm sure I'll be one of the few okay with this.[/QUOTE]
It'd be fine if they just took you to the station to be picked up my mom and dad, or even just drove you to your house and walked you up to the door when your parents answered.
But the church thing is going to cause a lot of problems.
Really depends on the church, there are church organizations that are secular and help people that I'm perfectly fine with.
I mean hell, even locally there's one right next to my old high school made so that kids have a place to go and be fed and socialized rather than causing trouble, and it's perfectly fine because it's just that.
[QUOTE=Revenge282;50532557]It'd be fine if they just took you to the station to be picked up my mom and dad, or even just drove you to your house and walked you up to the door when your parents answered.
But the church thing is going to cause a lot of problems.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty certain you don't have to worry about forced conversion or indoctrination, if that's your worry.
You remember that thing in your constitution that says "Separation of church and state" ?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50532537]Guys are worried about kids being forced to go to church but you gotta realize, this is a [I]punishment[/I] :v:[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure having to go to church qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment. Especially cruel.
Wow, really huh?
Making a curfew is just one step closer to a police nanny state. This is borderline tyrannical.
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50532604]Wow, really huh?
Making a curfew is just one step closer to a police nanny state. This is borderline tyrannical.[/QUOTE]
I can't tell if this is serious or not
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50532547]A lot of places in the US have curfews for minors unattended by adults.
I don't see a problem with it, but FP being full of minors I'm sure I'll be one of the few okay with this.[/QUOTE]
"I don't belong to a certain group so I don't care about their rights."
Shouldn't the parents decide whether or not their kids can go outside?
[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;50532589]You remember that thing in your constitution that says "Separation of church and state" ?[/QUOTE]
For one, it doesn't actually say that.
For another, what it does say is it won't establish a state religion and make said religion a requirement for elected office.
Don't just fling out "separation from church and state!!" without knowing anything about it.
[editline]16th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=orgornot;50532612]"I don't belong to a certain group so I don't care about their rights."
Shouldn't the parents decide whether or not their kids can go outside?[/QUOTE]
Minors don't have rights. On top of that, you can't just yell "my rights!" any time you're barred from doing something you want.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50532586]I'm pretty certain you don't have to worry about forced conversion or indoctrination, if that's your worry.[/QUOTE]
Of course that isn't my worry. My concern is that you're letting the government handle something minor like a curfew with church-sponsored counseling.
1. That shouldn't happen because of the continuously repeated separation of church and state that we have. (Which should be even moreso defined.)
2. The government is playing the role of nanny, even if by giving the kid to the church. That is the parents role, you punish the parents for their childs actions in order to enforce proper parenting.
[QUOTE=Revenge282;50532675]Of course that isn't my worry. My concern is that you're letting the government handle something minor like a curfew with church-sponsored counseling.
1. That shouldn't happen because of the continuously repeated separation of church and state that we have. (Which should be even moreso defined.)
2. The government is playing the role of nanny, even if by giving the kid to the church. That is the parents role, you punish the parents for their childs actions in order to enforce proper parenting.[/QUOTE]
Church counsellors are also trained counsellors bear in mind, its part of their trainig when they go to seminary school. Who basically work for free, also as far as the seperation of church and state goes that only goes for the state sponsering or enforcing a church. Meanwhile just sending kids for just the counselling imo shouldnt be a problem. Especially if the pastors or priests dont bring up religion in it.
Though in my opinion if you are worried about the state sponsoring one particular religion they could always offer this sort of counselling up in synagouges, mosques, etc its all a matter of availability.
[QUOTE=Revenge282;50532675]Of course that isn't my worry. My concern is that you're letting the government handle something minor like a curfew with church-sponsored counseling.
1. That shouldn't happen because of the continuously repeated separation of church and state that we have. (Which should be even moreso defined.)
2. The government is playing the role of nanny, even if by giving the kid to the church. That is the parents role, you punish the parents for their childs actions in order to enforce proper parenting.[/QUOTE]
1. Read my post about what "separation of state and church" means
2. This is hardly a nanny-state policy.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50532703]1. Read my post about what "separation of state and church" means
2. This is hardly a nanny-state policy.[/QUOTE]
The state isn't the entity to be enforcing behavioral correction on minors for a curfew, either enforce it with the law properly, or return them and have the parents handle it. See below for the rest.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50532617]For one, it doesn't actually say that.
For another, what it does say is it won't establish a state religion and make said religion a requirement for elected office.
Don't just fling out "separation from church and state!!" without knowing anything about it.[/QUOTE]
There have been multiple court cases where this exact thing was upheld without it being written verbatim. It's an interpretation of the 1st amendment. A simple Google of the term will give you plenty of sources for that.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50532617]Minors don't have rights. On top of that, you can't just yell "my rights!" any time you're barred from doing something you want.[/QUOTE]
This is just silly. Of course they do. Being able to decline involvement with a religion, no matter how benign you may think the act to be, is something everyone is afforded.
[QUOTE=Native Hunter;50532700]Church counsellors are also trained counsellors bear in mind, its part of their trainig when they go to seminary school. Who basically work for free, also as far as the seperation of church and state goes that only goes for the state sponsering or enforcing a church. Meanwhile just sending kids for just the counselling imo shouldnt be a problem. Especially if the pastors or priests dont bring up religion in it.[/QUOTE]
I'm aware that they are competent counseling. That isn't where my problem lies. My issue lies with the government assuming that the church is the answer to kids breaking curfew. Let the parents handle it, and if they fail to do so, then the parents should bear fault.
[I](Also, I don't really want to argue this point much, but I feel it should be stated: I find it hard to believe that an ordained counselor would work without bringing up their religion as some sort of reinforcement.)[/I]
My issue is with the government sending kids to counseling for being outdoors past midnight. I'm 18 so I'm not sure if this affects me or not, but anyone who lives in NJ would remember when they got their probationary license at 17 and weren't allowed to drive past 11pm. If you got caught, you would just get told to go straight home. Not treated like a criminal and forced into counseling.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50532610]I can't tell if this is serious or not[/QUOTE]
Whether or not you have a different stance on the subject, any government telling its citizen body when it can and can't leave their homes DOES qualify being at risk of becoming a police or nanny state.
Bottom line, you can not arrest people for being outside. That is fucking tyanny. It's an arbitrarily oppressive use of power. Spin it any way you want man. Thats the definition.
[QUOTE=da space core;50532505]Shouldn't there be separation between church and state? Legally requiring anyone to go to a place of faith is a bit much.[/QUOTE]
They're using churches because, for the most part, clergy in America is a good place to get general counseling on how to live a life of non-douchebaggery, and they're for the most part willing to aid those not of their faith(or indeed of any faith).
You needn't be religious to get benefitted by religion over here. If life's going to shit for you and you don't feel like anyone you know is a good place to get advice? Go find the nearest padre, they'll be happy to offer two cents. It's kinda nice.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50532617]
Minors don't have rights.[/QUOTE]
Okay now I can't tell if you're serious or not...
Are you joking?
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50532762]Okay now I can't tell if you're serious or not...
Are you joking?[/QUOTE]
Minors do not have full rights is a better way to put it.
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50532748]Whether or not you have a different stance on the subject, any government telling its citizen body when it can and can't leave their homes DOES qualify being at risk of becoming a police or nanny state.
Bottom line, you can not arrest people for being outside. That is fucking tyanny. It's an arbitrarily oppressive use of power. Spin it any way you want man. Thats the definition.[/QUOTE]
Ah, so it's a slippery-slope for nanny state, then.
[QUOTE=Levelog;50532771]Minors do not have full rights is a better way to put it.[/QUOTE]
Well, That is a better way to put it than making a sweeping statement. lol
If you guys really want to get into it, there are actually two dimensions to the rights of a "minor" there is Childs rights and there is youth rights. Child rights are for much younger children whereas youth rights apply to anyone under the age of 18.
One rights recognized by the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights is the right to security of person.
The right to security of person, by my interpretation is violated once a youth can be apprehended for simply being outside.
Why should your 17 year old be arrested on his way home from a late night with his friends because of what is clearly an abuse of power?
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50532604]Wow, really huh?
Making a curfew is just one step closer to a police nanny state. This is borderline tyrannical.[/QUOTE]
Curfews are not a new concept to US cities. This particular kind of punishment(?) for breaking it might be but if curfews are the "slippery slope" point then tons of cities are way past it.
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50532830]
The right to security of person, by my interpretation is violated once a youth can be apprehended for simply being outside.
Why should your 17 year old be arrested on his way home from a late night with his friends because of what is clearly an abuse of power?[/QUOTE]
Given that this is a nation-wide thing (not the church part, just curfew), then obviously your interpretation is wrong.
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50532748]Whether or not you have a different stance on the subject, any government telling its citizen body when it can and can't leave their homes DOES qualify being at risk of becoming a police or nanny state.
Bottom line, you can not arrest people for being outside. That is fucking tyanny. It's an arbitrarily oppressive use of power. Spin it any way you want man. Thats the definition.[/QUOTE]
How old are you?
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