• Archbishop of Canterbury says Paris attacks made him question the existence of God
    79 replies, posted
[img]http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/A637/production/_86815524_86815520.jpg[/img] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34893039[/url] [quote]The Archbishop of Canterbury has said the terror attacks in Paris made him "doubt" the presence of God. The Most Reverend Justin Welby told the BBC's Songs Of Praise the killings had put a "chink in his armour". He said his reaction to the attacks was "first shock and horror and then a profound sadness", heightened because he and his wife once lived in Paris.[/quote]
Are you like fucking kidding me? If that made you DOUBT the existence of God, why wouldn't something like the Rwanda killings do that?
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;49161648]Are you like fucking kidding me? If that made you DOUBT the existence of God, why wouldn't something like the Rwanda killings do that?[/QUOTE] Probably because he lives in a western nation so he relates to stuff happening in the western world a lot more People don't have the time nor the mental capacity to worry about every single crime that's happened everywhere in the world, so they worry about what happens near them, or to things that they can relate to. It's not exactly hard to get nor is it an inherently bad thing.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;49161648]Are you like fucking kidding me? If that made you DOUBT the existence of God, why wouldn't something like the Rwanda killings do that?[/QUOTE]Awareness. People simply aren't as aware of these things. Its stupid to lose your shit because people in the West don't know everything that happens everywhere in the world. Similarly people in the East, or in underdeveloped nations, are going to know basically nothing about what happens in the West unless its a major event, and even then not always. You think the average person in Bahrain or Chad gives a shit about most of the shit that happens here?
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;49161648]Are you like fucking kidding me? If that made you DOUBT the existence of God, why wouldn't something like the Rwanda killings do that?[/QUOTE] As awful as it is, killings that take place in parts of the world I have no connection to have less of an impact on me (don't get me wrong, I still feel bad about it, but not near the level I would if my hometown was attacked). Paris hit me harder than the killings I know that take place in Syria and Palestine on the reg. Heck, there was a Mosque bombing in Kuwait that ISIS carried out to try and cause dissension between Sunni and Shia sects of Islam. Instead, it made us bond together strongly. Even this attack didn't affect me as much as the Paris attacks because - as horrible as it is to say about the country I was born in - it isn't really "home" to me.
Bitch please of course I couldn't feel any emotion towards what's happening 8000km away from here. I'll just see what happened in Paris via TV, say "Oh damn" and keep on with my business as if nothing happened. I'm more than aware of that. But that won't me stop to say or claim something due to the logical implications those acts had. I'm not going to scrap my thought just because there wasn't any emotional connection. What I'm saying is: [I]If [B]that [/B]made you DOUBT the existence of God, why wouldn't something like the[B] Rwanda killings[/B] do that? [/I] That= Paris attacks. No less than 200 humans killed. Rwanda Killings= Fuck we still don't know exactly how many were killed with machetes and people who paid for their own bullets. I'm not saying "Oh how come he didn't cry for those children?" But "If you are the archbishop of Canterbury, and you are just sustaining the existence of God on purely emotional grounds....and that faith is shaken because you feel threatened....."
Not to be that guy, but finally someone gets the reason as to why some people chose not to believe in a god. The world's too fucked up for there to be such a being.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;49161886]Bitch please of course I couldn't feel any emotion towards what's happening 8000km away from here. I'll just see what happened in Paris via TV, say "Oh damn" and keep on with my business as if nothing happened. I'm more than aware of that. But that won't me stop to say or claim something due to the logical implications those acts had. I'm not going to scrap my thought just because there wasn't any emotional connection. What I'm saying is: [I]If [B]that [/B]made you DOUBT the existence of God, why wouldn't something like the[B] Rwanda killings[/B] do that? [/I] That= Paris attacks. No less than 200 humans killed. Rwanda Killings= Fuck we still don't know exactly how many were killed with machetes and people who paid for their own bullets. I'm not saying "Oh how come he didn't cry for those children?" But "If you are the archbishop of Canterbury, and you are just sustaining the existence of God on purely emotional grounds....and that faith is shaken because you feel threatened....."[/QUOTE] Alright if you insist on continuing, it probably [I]would[/I], but it [I]didn't[/I]. The Paris attacks did. [editline]21st November 2015[/editline] I really don't see why you're pushing such a stupid argument.
We're talking about an adult, educated man. Surely he should realise the folly of [i]this attack[/i] being what causes him to doubt God just because it's closer to home. Assuming he views his God as global, then with the same logic, the abundance of unjustice happening all the time farther from home should already be plenty of reason to doubt. Even if he has some kind of religiocentric view that non-Christians "have it coming", plenty of terrible things are happening in highly Christian countries such as those in sub-Saharan Africa. I think this logic stands regardless of what he really means by the "presence of God"; the title of this thread uses the word "existence", but reading the article I think that's a bit of a leap. To me it comes off as either a very naive or a very narrow-minded thing to say. Sober comment about retaliation, though.
[QUOTE=jA_cOp;49161923]We're talking about an adult, educated man. Surely he should realise the folly of [i]this attack[/i] being what causes him to doubt God just because it's closer to home. Assuming he views his God as global, then with the same logic, the abundance of unjustice happening all the time farther from home should already be plenty of reason to doubt. Even if he has some kind of religiocentric view that non-Christians "have it coming", plenty of terrible things are happening in highly Christian countries such as those in sub-Saharan Africa. I think this logic stands regardless of what he really means by the "presence of God"; the title of this thread uses the word "existence", but reading the article I think that's a bit of a leap. To me it comes off as either a very naive or a very narrow-minded thing to say. Sober comment about retaliation, though.[/QUOTE] Plenty of bad things have happened to christians in European countries, in Christs name even. Genocides, Civil war, etc.
[QUOTE=Apache249;49161899] I really don't see why you're pushing such a stupid argument.[/QUOTE] I'm putting my money on every smart ass atheist coming out of the woodwork to see this and claim a victory for themselves, rather than a man seeing so much death and destruction, and wondering why the entity he has prayed and worshiped for probably most of his entire life, is allowing this all to happen. Or smart ass people being like "why didn't x make him do this?". And yeah I'm not gonna care about what goes on in Africa for instance, because right here in Chicago, I gotta worry about getting a job and eventually going to college right now, I don't have time or the care to bleed my heart out for a country I wasn't born in.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;49161886]Bitch please of course I couldn't feel any emotion towards what's happening 8000km away from here. I'll just see what happened in Paris via TV, say "Oh damn" and keep on with my business as if nothing happened. I'm more than aware of that. But that won't me stop to say or claim something due to the logical implications those acts had. I'm not going to scrap my thought just because there wasn't any emotional connection. What I'm saying is: [I]If [B]that [/B]made you DOUBT the existence of God, why wouldn't something like the[B] Rwanda killings[/B] do that? [/I] That= Paris attacks. No less than 200 humans killed. Rwanda Killings= Fuck we still don't know exactly how many were killed with machetes and people who paid for their own bullets. I'm not saying "Oh how come he didn't cry for those children?" But "If you are the archbishop of Canterbury, and you are just sustaining the existence of God on purely emotional grounds....and that faith is shaken because you feel threatened....."[/QUOTE] Who cares? You're questioning the logic of someone's emotions, which are by their nature illogical. There's nothing to gain from critiquing someone's reaction to a massacre.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49161936]Plenty of bad things have happened to christians in European countries, in Christs name even. Genocides, Civil war, etc.[/QUOTE] Obviously, but the modern context for such religiocentric Christian people (and I don't assume he's such a person) is "Western Christian Civilization" vs "Islamist Fundamentalism". In this frame of mind, injustice against non-Christians can be hand-waved simply because if they're not Christian, they're doing it wrong and maybe they deserve it. There is some religious basis for this kind of thing - in Christianity with things like special salvation - but I think it's more rooted in xenophobia. Just a digression anyway, I was just looking for a way in which his comment doesn't come off as incredibly naive.
His doubting because of this makes me doubt the seriousness of his religious belief. Honestly, I can't imagine being a Christian in that high of a position and at that advanced of an age never having faced the ramifications of this type of evil as it relates to Christianity.
[QUOTE=srobins;49161989]Who cares? You're questioning the logic of someone's emotions, which are by their nature illogical.[/QUOTE] One thing is feeling it - perfectly natural - and one thing is saying it without a hint of self-awareness at the hypocrisy in it. [QUOTE=srobins;49161989]There's nothing to gain from critiquing someone's reaction to a massacre.[/QUOTE] Of course there is.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49162026]His doubting because of this makes me doubt the seriousness of his religious belief. Honestly, I can't imagine being a Christian in that high of a position and at that advanced of an age never having faced the ramifications of this type of evil as it relates to Christianity.[/QUOTE] This was pretty much my same thought. Anyone who actually believes in something with that seriousness should have asked themselves those questions before.
[QUOTE=jA_cOp;49161923]We're talking about an adult, educated man. Surely he should realise the folly of [i]this attack[/i] being what causes him to doubt God just because it's closer to home. Assuming he views his God as global, then with the same logic, the abundance of unjustice happening all the time farther from home should already be plenty of reason to doubt. Even if he has some kind of religiocentric view that non-Christians "have it coming", plenty of terrible things are happening in highly Christian countries such as those in sub-Saharan Africa. I think this logic stands regardless of what he really means by the "presence of God"; the title of this thread uses the word "existence", but reading the article I think that's a bit of a leap. To me it comes off as either a very naive or a very narrow-minded thing to say. Sober comment about retaliation, though.[/QUOTE] Nah dude, didn't you read? God only cares if you believe in him and accept him him as your maker and follow his rules in a very specific way. :hurr: [editline]21st November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;49162026]His doubting because of this makes me doubt the seriousness of his religious belief. Honestly, I can't imagine being a Christian in that high of a position and at that advanced of an age never having faced the ramifications of this type of evil as it relates to Christianity.[/QUOTE] "Blessed is the mind too small for doubt"
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49162047]This was pretty much my same thought. Anyone who actually believes in something with that seriousness should have asked themselves those questions before.[/QUOTE] Thanks. Exactly that. I wish I could have it put it into fewer words.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49162026]His doubting because of this makes me doubt the seriousness of his religious belief. Honestly, I can't imagine being a Christian in that high of a position and at that advanced of an age never having faced the ramifications of this type of evil as it relates to Christianity.[/QUOTE] Every religious person in existence has times of doubt, regardless of whether they consciously realize the fact or not. Even the Bible - the actual holy book of Christianity - mentions that the Apostles doubted their faith at times. It's what you do afterwards that makes the difference.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49162047]This was pretty much my same thought. Anyone who actually believes in something with that seriousness should have asked themselves those questions before.[/QUOTE] Not really. The base and bedrock for belief is want. There's no evidence that god exists at all in the form subscribed by any holy book, yet billions are not only absolutely sure, but their absolutely he's an Aryan superjew that literally lives in a city of gold in the clouds, who takes an unending and unblinking interest in their every waking moment. That is purely want.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;49162099]"Blessed is the mind too small for doubt"[/QUOTE] "Blessed is the mind who reads critically." (I made that one up) [QUOTE]Every religious person in existence has times of doubt, regardless of whether they consciously realize the fact or not. Even the Bible - the actual holy book of Christianity - mentions that the Apostles doubted their faith at times. It's what you do afterwards that makes the difference.[/QUOTE] I never said that he should never doubt, but that this issue of evil, especially one of human caused evil, is a pretty fundamental question for any serious religious thinker. As an archbishop I would expect him to have come to terms with some conclusion on this topic. The fact that doubt is his response tells me that he hasn't.
I questioned gods existence when all these over-privileged kids started protesting meaningless shit at their university campuses.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;49161683]You think the average person in Bahrain or Chad gives a shit about most of the shit that happens here?[/QUOTE] omg you mean noone in Guatamala heard about angelina making fun of janiston's engagement?
Catholicism is built on allowing skepticism. Doubt is what allows christians to come to jesus. Without doubt, a christian can never really feel close to god. Even Jesus had his moment of doubt. Saying "I doubted my faith in god" is just patting oneself on the back for overcoming that doubt. The Amish do this as a ritual. They allow, on a man's 18th birthday, for him to go into town and whore around and drink, and then they give him a choice: "you've seen what the real world is like. Do you want to leave, or do you want to stay?" They almost always stay [editline]22nd November 2015[/editline] [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tABnznhzdIY[/media]
[QUOTE=proboardslol;49162719]Even Jesus had his moment of doubt.[/QUOTE] This isn't true at all. I assume you're talking about the Garden of Gethsemane before his capture, but Jesus didn't express doubt there. He simply showed that if it wasn't the only way, he wouldn't have done it. With that said, we do have good examples of doubt in the Bible. John the Baptist, for example, doubted the veracity of Jesus being the Messiah while in prison. Thomas famously doubted the risen Christ. Peter doubted the power of Jesus when he walked on the water. etc. etc. Real doubt is never a problem. The issue is one's response to doubt. In any field you don't respond to doubt by giving up all belief. You respond by doing the necessary research and figuring out if the doubt is founded on truth or on falsehood.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49162573]"Blessed is the mind who reads critically." (I made that one up) I never said that he should never doubt, but that this issue of evil, especially one of human caused evil, is a pretty fundamental question for any serious religious thinker. As an archbishop I would expect him to have come to terms with some conclusion on this topic. The fact that doubt is his response tells me that he hasn't.[/QUOTE] It's a quote from Warhammer 40K, written in one of the Imperium's holy books. It's a jab at religious extremism/fanaticism, where those who commit without question will typically be too weak-minded to do otherwise.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49162806]This isn't true at all. I assume you're talking about the Garden of Gethsemane before his capture, but Jesus didn't express doubt there. He simply showed that if it wasn't the only way, he wouldn't have done it. With that said, we do have good examples of doubt in the Bible. John the Baptist, for example, doubted the veracity of Jesus being the Messiah while in prison. Thomas famously doubted the risen Christ. Peter doubted the power of Jesus when he walked on the water. etc. etc. Real doubt is never a problem. The issue is one's response to doubt. In any field you don't respond to doubt by giving up all belief. You respond by doing the necessary research and figuring out if the doubt is founded on truth or on falsehood.[/QUOTE] I'm talking about when he said "father why have you forsaken me"
[QUOTE=kweh;49161896]Not to be that guy, but finally someone gets the reason as to why some people chose not to believe in a god. The world's too fucked up for there to be such a being.[/QUOTE] I find the idea not to believe in god because something bad happens the equivalent of getting mad at the president of the USA for not serving me tea in the morning and not being my butler in my studio apartment. The idea "Why god let bad things happen?" is an human centric, and egoistical view. We are talking about a being who supposedly takes care of everything. Not just us. There is about 7.3 billion in the world. That is not sustainable. The current level of technological development is not sustainable. Its ruining the atmosphere, and turning the ocean into acid and a dead zone. The load of garbage being produced isn't healthy either. All this activity is killing off other species and its making every thing out of balance and out of whack. Hasn't it occurred to people that maybe God (if that view is correct) is starting and trying instigate a world war via a clash of cultures in order to correct theses deficiencies? If we kill enough of our selves off, perhaps things will become better for the whole once again. Remember what may be good for the whole of creation may come at expense with what we think is good for us as human beings and as a species. The former may need to grind us into a misty, red paste if only to achieve that end.
[QUOTE=JohhnyCarson;49164752]There is about 7.3 billion billion in the world. That is not sustainable.[/QUOTE] About half of the food produced isn't eaten and birth rates are plummeting in many countries. Also I don't see why killing ourselves is a very good idea when things are doing very well for most humans compared to the past. This is a period in history with the lowest poverty, least disease, fewest wars, the greatest number of accountable democratic governments, the most social justice, highest wealth, greatest international cooperation, and the fact that in the space of a few decades the ozone hole crisis has been largely averted.
I like how it went from [quote]The Most Reverend Justin Welby told the BBC's Songs Of Praise the killings had put a "chink in his armour".[/quote] to [quote]Paris attacks caused archbishop to 'doubt' [B]presence [/B]of God[/quote] to [quote]Archbishop of Canterbury says Paris attacks made him question the [B]existence [/B]of God[/quote] Its a highly fucking sensational headline on BBCs end and you're taking it even further. The guy literally claim to "talks with god" in the same interview, and you're just completely taking it out of context to the point where its bullshit.
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