[QUOTE]“When you put an object on the screen for the player, that is a draw call,” Hallock explains. “That GPU talks to the CPU and says, ‘Hey, this thing has to go on screen.’ Current APIs are very limited in the number of calls they can make per frame. Each frame requires several thousand draw calls. Now, in a best case scenario, today’s APIs get you three to five thousand draw calls. That’s how many objects appear on screen.
“Mantle kicks that limit up to 80 thousand or 90 thousand.[/QUOTE]
Even though that i LOVE AMD that line is a bit of a too much BS.
[QUOTE={TFS} Rock Su;43572774]Even though that i LOVE AMD that line is a bit of a too much BS.[/QUOTE]
Its entirely possible if they managed to unfuck multicore dispatches
[quote]Look, this is just a video card. It's tangentially related to Mantle. So imagine this card high-fiving with its API buddy.[/quote]
Had myself a little chuckle
So I have the same question as one of the comments. Is this going to be an AMD card only thing? This almost seems to good to be true, but that tech demo looks pretty impressive and real.
[QUOTE=The DooD;43573283]So I have the same question as one of the comments. Is this going to be an AMD card only thing? This almost seems to good to be true, but that tech demo looks pretty impressive and real.[/QUOTE]
Obviously AMD only, but who knows. Just WHO knows..
How about some actual performance demonstrations, then we'll talk.
[QUOTE=damnatus;43573703]How about some actual performance demonstrations, then we'll talk.[/QUOTE]
This runs on Mantel and shows the difference somewhat
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT6NeZSS3_8[/media]
We're getting a demo soon
I just realized this was in the article
[QUOTE=Saxon;43573718]This runs on Mantel and shows the difference somewhat
[/QUOTE]
Nah, they gotta show me a comparison on a well known game like BF4 or Crysis 3, because this was made for Mantle from scratch and probably works quite poor with directx by definition.
I reckon this really doesn't mean all that much in the long run, unless Nvidia were to also introduce the functionality in future generations of cards (probably not going to happen). As is stands, Mantle is developed by a competing entity, not Khronos or Microsoft. I'd much rather see better OpenGL 4.X adoption than have people pour into what is basically a windows-only API currently, as to allow better Cross-OS game support.
[QUOTE=Medevila;43575504]I'd much rather see an OpenGL alternative, yeah
However PS4/XBOne are both AMD so the chance of developers utilizing the API is more likely than if this were an Nvidia development[/QUOTE]
they're both AMD GPUs with their own proprietary graphics API (not mantle)
Aw, and here I'd hoped Sony would switch to Mantle which would make MS reconsider using DirectX for Xbone if both PS4 and some PCs invite devs to do more stuff on their systems than they could do with Microsoft's console.
Already pretty sick of them trying to bully people into buying new Windows versions by making new DX versions exclusive, tho if Linux and OpenGL really should expand as Valve hopes that effect might lessen anyway.
I just splashed out on a 780 and I don't want to be filled with regret a few months down the line with a bunch of games running better on the AMD Cards.
[QUOTE=nintenman1;43574719]I reckon this really doesn't mean all that much in the long run, unless Nvidia were to also introduce the functionality in future generations of cards (probably not going to happen). As is stands, Mantle is developed by a competing entity, not Khronos or Microsoft. I'd much rather see better OpenGL 4.X adoption than have people pour into what is basically a windows-only API currently, as to allow better Cross-OS game support.[/QUOTE]
If developers like it enough (which i think they will) its gonna happen, regardless if Nvidia is on the boat or not.
Its not like DirectX or OpenGL that are almost copies of each-other, its possible to do a lot of things that weren't possible in the past with mantle.
Its not a very complicated system, its just glorified direct access to the GPU, Nvidia can make an API to do the same thing if they want to.
Also this is pretty good for AMD's APU market if it takes off.
[QUOTE=damnatus;43573825]Nah, they gotta show me a comparison on a well known game like BF4 or Crysis 3, because this was made for Mantle from scratch and probably works quite poor with directx by definition.[/QUOTE]
If you watch the interview with the developer of that demo, the developer said that it was built for direct X, and mantle was after. Heck he said mantle isn't fully optimized yet!
[QUOTE=Dr.Fragg;43576404]I just splashed out on a 780 and I don't want to be filled with regret a few months down the line with a bunch of games running better on the AMD Cards.[/QUOTE]
Well the AMD R7 290 is just as good and cheaper as well, and that's without mantle. However nvidia and AMD is pushing opengl support to be like mantle,(the increasing drawcall bit) and I'm guessing nvidia will support mantle in the future.
[QUOTE=Dr.Fragg;43576404]I just splashed out on a 780 and I don't want to be filled with regret a few months down the line with a bunch of games running better on the AMD Cards.[/QUOTE]
It happens all the time. Like when my high end gpu wasn't enough to have AA in Batman Arkham Asylum. You needed an 8600 GT or up for that. :v:
[QUOTE=The DooD;43573283]So I have the same question as one of the comments. Is this going to be an AMD card only thing? This almost seems to good to be true, but that tech demo looks pretty impressive and real.[/QUOTE]
IIRC, it's API is open source.
I would rather say its open standard for now.
there's a reason why directX and openGL exist: abstracting away from bare-metal allows for less experienced programmers to create amazing things. having another single-vendor standard isn't going to help advance much in the graphics world. besides, I'm willing to bet that the Mantle api is going to just be [I]soooo easy to program for[/I]...
[editline]17th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Del91;43576923]IIRC, it's API is open source.[/QUOTE]
open source doesn't matter, nvidia won't implement this because it will require specific hardware requirements and because AMD is a direct competitor.
[quote]“When you put an object on the screen for the player, that is a draw call,” Hallock explains. “That GPU talks to the CPU and says, ‘Hey, this thing has to go on screen.’ Current APIs are very limited in the number of calls they can make per frame. Each frame requires several thousand draw calls. Now, in a best case scenario, today’s APIs get you three to five thousand draw calls. That’s how many objects appear on screen.
“Mantle kicks that limit up to 80 thousand or 90 thousand.[/quote]
If this really was true then I'd like to see it utilized in games like Arma (and Wargame, etc.) where there could be thousands of trees, hundreds of soldiers, dozens of tanks and a large quantity of smoke particles on screen at once.
Is this relevant to voxel tech too? I know little about voxels, but I think I understand they have a high memory requirement, but shouldn't they also have a a massive draw call amount, too?
I'd like to see a scene like:
[img_thumb]http://www.atomontage.com/sshots/ae_kladno_dof_278.jpg[/img_thumb]
With detail like:
[img_thumb]http://www.atomontage.com/sshots/ae_panels_g.jpg[/img_thumb]
With scale like:
[img_thumb]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BoU4btzqsCY/TMxaHfdDMeI/AAAAAAAAADI/5LBzO8xe54c/s1600/apache2.jpg[/img_thumb]
(Atomontage + Outerra)
[QUOTE=Leintharien;43577474]If this really was true then I'd like to see it utilized in games like Arma (and Wargame, etc.) where there could be thousands of trees, hundreds of soldiers, dozens of tanks and a large quantity of smoke particles on screen at once.
Is this relevant to voxel tech too? I know little about voxels, but I think I understand they have a high memory requirement, but shouldn't they also have a a massive draw call amount, too?
[/QUOTE]
the problem with this is more about memory than drawcalls
edit:
I thought that the only reason direct-to-metal communication was possible with consoles was because of its standardized hardware (I guess that's also why Mantle is limited to a specific hardware set), it sounds like it'd be a nightmare if it became a standard
[QUOTE=The DooD;43573283]So I have the same question as one of the comments. Is this going to be an AMD card only thing? This almost seems to good to be true, but that tech demo looks pretty impressive and real.[/QUOTE]
Yes. In a sense this is basically a return to the era that predates DirectX and OpenGL. And I'd say we'll see a bigger multicore threading push into Dx and OpenGL in a response. I wouldn't be surprised if MS actually has that done and now in testing.
I'm not exactly worried about Nvidia falling behind in performance, when Mantle came out, Carmack commented that Nvidia's OpenGL extensions "can give similar improvements".
There's only a few people on this planet that I allow myself to blindly trust, he's one of them.
Hell at least It's open source and most likely won't bias in favour of the AMD brandname (I sure hope not), I'm fucking sick of this shit like Physx playing way better on Nvidia and AMD (Probably has something just can't think of it at the moment). In summary I hate how game companies bias towards GPU makers, its so damn sketchy.
I've always been dubious of these claims because they simply don't go into enough detail, boasting about "draw calls" is pointless because the amount you can get is highly dependent on the amount of work you're doing (Drawing a single box and a character model are 2 draw calls, yet the amount of work done between them is entirely different), and I'm dubious of the limits AMD claim because Nvidia haven't ever done that, in fact they were getting numbers fairly close to that "limit" a decade ago, are modern GPUs only 3 times faster than a GeForce 2? I doubt it.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;43577848]Yes. In a sense this is basically a return to the era that predates DirectX and OpenGL. And I'd say we'll see a bigger multicore threading push into Dx and OpenGL in a response. I wouldn't be surprised if MS actually has that done and now in testing.[/QUOTE]
Microsoft have been working on multi-threaded DirectX for years (Back with Vista), OpenGL does threading as well.
[QUOTE=TheDecryptor;43579334]I've always been dubious of these claims because they simply don't go into enough detail, boasting about "draw calls" is pointless because the amount you can get is highly dependent on the amount of work you're doing (Drawing a single box and a character model are 2 draw calls, yet the amount of work done between them is entirely different), and I'm dubious of the limits AMD claim because Nvidia haven't ever done that, in fact they were getting numbers fairly close to that "limit" a decade ago, are modern GPUs only 3 times faster than a GeForce 2? I doubt it.
Microsoft have been working on multi-threaded DirectX for years (Back with Vista), OpenGL does threading as well.[/QUOTE]
While multi-threaded DirectX is a thing, its amazingly terrible, not worth it and may even cause a slowdown
Multithreading in OpenGL is just resource loading
However, while this will be a boost, not many games are draw call bound, although it'll definitely help
[QUOTE=Leintharien;43577474]If this really was true then I'd like to see it utilized in games like Arma (and Wargame, etc.) where there could be thousands of trees, hundreds of soldiers, dozens of tanks and a large quantity of smoke particles on screen at once.
Is this relevant to voxel tech too? I know little about voxels, but I think I understand they have a high memory requirement, but shouldn't they also have a a massive draw call amount, too?
*pictures*[/QUOTE]
Euclideons tech could easily do this
I'd love to use this, but fuck anything that's both platform and hardware specific. Limiting the number of people that can play your game is the last thing most devs want to do. At best, this'll appear as an alternate option for rendering to OpenGL or DirectX in a few games here and there, unless it really is every bit as good as they're claiming.
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