• Australian government set to announce anti vaccination parents will lose social benefits.
    52 replies, posted
[img]http://www.theage.com.au/content/dam/images/1/3/w/8/f/3/image.related.articleLeadwide.620x349.1mie6x.png/1428724772565.jpg[/img] [quote]Parents who do not vaccinate their children will lose welfare payments of up to $2100 per child under a federal government policy set to be announced before the May budget. Under changes that could save more than $50 million a year, Social Services Minister Scott Morrison is preparing to scrap a "conscientious objection" provision which allows anti-vaccination parents to still claim welfare benefits including childcare assistance and Family Tax Benefit A. Parents of about 39,000 children have signed "conscientious objection" forms that certify they have a "personal, philosophical, religious or medical" objection to immunisation. This form, which requires a consultation with a doctor or immunisation nurse, is necessary for the parents to receive Family Tax Benfit A. But access is means tested so not every one of those parents would be receiving the payment.[/quote] [url]www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/abbott-government-to-announce-antivaccination-parents-will-lose-benefits-20150411-1mie6x.html[/url]
Good. The antivax blight was never big in Australia but they're strangling the movement before dumb parents can tell other dumb parents about why they shouldn't vaccinate kids.
what an incredibly shit way of dealing with the anti-vax issue [editline]11th April 2015[/editline] if 99% of the problem with anti-vax is caused from lacking the education to know better then it seems pretty fucking cynical to assume threatening poor people with welfare cuts has any effect whatsoever on the underlying structure of the problem
[QUOTE=Kommodore;47502828]what an incredibly shit way of dealing with the anti-vax issue [editline]11th April 2015[/editline] if 99% of the problem with anti-vax is caused from lacking the education to know better then it seems pretty fucking cynical to assume threatening poor people with welfare cuts has any effect whatsoever on the underlying structure of the problem[/QUOTE] Shit as in shitty, or shit as in ineffective? Because it's definitely not the latter, withholding money from people until they stop endangering their children sounds pretty effective to me. You don't need education to understand "get shots or you don't get money" [editline]11th April 2015[/editline] I mean sure it's a pretty strong-arm method but as long they're forced to get vaccines, who gives a shit whether they understand why or not? There's always going to be that hardcore group who'll remain antivax no matter how many educational posters you throw at them
Honestly mostly because the law implies if you're a middle class or rich yuppie retard you can feel free to just not vaccinate your kid no problem and that's ok because fuck poor people [editline]11th April 2015[/editline] And partly because they still have no sense or appreciation for the social responsibility of vaccinations. That's not a sign of a healthy, integral society. The government also has a social responsibility: to cultivate a rational society not say "fuck it you're poor and dumb and it's too much effort to deal with this the right way, we're gonna make you even poorer if you don't." It's the fact that anti-vax suddently started existing or at least returned to prominence at all which is the actual problem that no one seems to focus on.
good, thats a nice first step for not giving your kids bleach enemas maybe theyll decrease sometime soon
[QUOTE=Kommodore;47502907]Honestly mostly because the law implies if you're a middle class or rich you yuppie retard you can feel free to just not vaccinate your kid no problem and that's ok because fuck poor people [editline]11th April 2015[/editline] And partly because they still have no sense or appreciation for the social responsibility of vaccinations. That's not a sign of a healthy, integral society. The government has a social responsibility to cultivate a rational society not say "fuck it you're poor and dumb and it's too much effort to deal with this the right way, we're gonna make you even poorer if you don't."[/QUOTE] True, but no issue can be changed with just a single law. Looking at the recent trend this'll be just one of several acts by government to make sure all Australians are vaccinated, this one is just targeting the lower class demographics. The only problem with dealing with the issue through education is that fear-mongering spreads much faster than truthful information. In the race to get people to take a stance on vaccines, antivax movements can be much more aggressive with their information networks since no one is regulating the bullshit they spout.
Kind of a harsh measure. Aren't there other ways to present facts to the general public?
[QUOTE=Benjimon007;47502962]Kind of a harsh measure. Aren't there other ways to present facts to the general public?[/QUOTE] I think you underestimate the cognitive shitstorm that goes on when they are given information that disproves them, they'll call it fake, funded by the government, call it faulty findings.. etc etc
I hope they're going through it case by case and not just decide to just do blanket denials since it'd be stupid to cut off someones benefits if their kid is immunocompromised.
[QUOTE=markg06;47503002]I hope they're going through it case by case and not just decide to just do blanket denials since it'd be stupid to cut off someones benefits if their kid is immunocompromised.[/QUOTE] This is exactly what they'll do. If they actually do this properly I will be surprised and reconsider my labelling scott morrison as a horrible human being. He should more often satiate his desire to see people in pain through torturing people like anti-vaxxers rather than people who deserve mercy as was his previous outlet as minister for immigration.
I'm glad the Coalition is doing this. I would have expected them to sit on the fence and let the tin foil hat conspiritards have their way. This is a pleasant surprise, a policy I fully agree with. Antivaxxers put the wider community in danger by diminishing herd immunity.
[QUOTE=Kommodore;47502907]Honestly mostly because the law implies if you're a middle class or rich yuppie retard you can feel free to just not vaccinate your kid no problem and that's ok because fuck poor people[/QUOTE] And honestly, what do you think an anti-vax conspiracy person would say to coercing people into vaccinations. I mean to other retards, it validates their retard ideas. It isn't an issue you should force, really, there should be education specifically for these people. Maybe a public service announcement calling them retarded or such
[QUOTE=Kommodore;47502828]what an incredibly shit way of dealing with the anti-vax issue [editline]11th April 2015[/editline] if 99% of the problem with anti-vax is caused from lacking the education to know better then it seems pretty fucking cynical to assume threatening poor people with welfare cuts has any effect whatsoever on the underlying structure of the problem[/QUOTE] Some people actively disregard the facts of vaccinations. Reminds me of that college humor video of "If Google was a person" and a woman asked for "are vaccines effective" and the result came up with a stack of pages "proving it effective" and a single page denying it and the woman grabbing the latter, yelling "Aha! I knew it was true!"
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47503567] Reminds me of that college humor video of "If Google was a person" and a woman asked for "are vaccines effective" and the result came up with a stack of pages "proving it effective" and a single page denying it and the woman grabbing the latter, yelling "Aha! I knew it was true!"[/QUOTE] That literally is the anti-vaccination movement. I love it because it sums it up so well. and that "one" study has been debunked countless times and the guy responsible lost his medical license for child endangerment. I don't understand why anyone would trust it.
where have i heard this before 2011 [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1142969[/url]
[QUOTE=ScottyWired;47502854]withholding money from people until they stop endangering their children sounds pretty effective to me.[/QUOTE] The children are going to be endangered more by the lack of proper food since their parents will no longer be able to afford it, while something certainly needs to be done this isn't the way to do it.
[QUOTE=ScottyWired;47502736]Good. The antivax blight was never big in Australia but they're strangling the movement before dumb parents can tell other dumb parents about why they shouldn't vaccinate kids.[/QUOTE] Eh it was kind of born in Australia. Then it spread by the internet to the west coast... Too bad nobody here would ever propose something like this, though anti-vaxxer parents should be forced to see pictures of polio wards if we are going to force people having abortions to see fetal pictures
[QUOTE=Chryseus;47504499]The children are going to be endangered more by the lack of proper food since their parents will no longer be able to afford it, while something certainly needs to be done this isn't the way to do it.[/QUOTE] Actually "needle day" is a thing around here, where you get pulled out of learning for 20 minutes and laugh as your fellow classmates cry at the thought of getting stabbed. I caught on pretty fast that anyone feeling light-headed after the injection got chocolate milk so once a year I put on my best "oh gee I feel kinda funny" face. And neither me nor my family spent a single cent. No excuses to that.
[QUOTE=ScottyWired;47502854]Shit as in shitty, or shit as in ineffective?[/QUOTE] I hate the antivaccination trend as much as the next internet guy, but if the goal of this legislation is to protect the interests of the children (and others who require herd immunity) then cutting off welfare is likely somewhat counterproductive. You can end up harming the children twice over for the bad decisions of their parents If failing to vaccinate without a valid medical reason is a form child endangerment then the parents should probably be dealt with for their neglectful behavior directly ED: Like get CPS involved or whatever
[QUOTE=s0beit;47503210]And honestly, what do you think an anti-vax conspiracy person would say to coercing people into vaccinations. I mean to other retards, it validates their retard ideas. It isn't an issue you should force, really, there should be education specifically for these people. Maybe a public service announcement calling them retarded or such[/QUOTE] You can't educate someone who refuses to accept the material. We've tried to teach anti-vaxxers why they're in the wrong and it's failed every time. They simply reject it, claim it's a mind control attempt or some such nuttery. Educating them doesn't work. We've already tried that. It's time to explore other options, and if that means hitting pocketbooks then so be it.
I don't know what other solution there is but essentially punishing children by subjecting them to poverty because their parents are bellends doesn't sit well with me.
[QUOTE=sourcegamer101;47502912]good, thats a nice first step for not giving your kids bleach enemas maybe theyll decrease sometime soon[/QUOTE] I am still morbidly curious as to how the fuck that movement even got started in the first place. I mean, was it some guys attempt at trolling dumb anti-vax parents that went over-board or something? A poor attempt at a joke on Tumblr? What started it all?
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;47504911]I am still morbidly curious as to how the fuck that movement even got started in the first place. I mean, was it some guys attempt at trolling dumb anti-vax parents that went over-board or something? A poor attempt at a joke on Tumblr? What started it all?[/QUOTE] It's a cheap chemical peddled by people who are morally okay with killing people's children for a quick buck.
[QUOTE=TestECull;47504864]You can't educate someone who refuses to accept the material. We've tried to teach anti-vaxxers why they're in the wrong and it's failed every time. They simply reject it, claim it's a mind control attempt or some such nuttery. Educating them doesn't work. We've already tried that. It's time to explore other options, and if that means hitting pocketbooks then so be it.[/QUOTE] I personally enjoy it when the news or other media has 'Debates' between two people on opposite sides of vaccination. In particular, one time I saw one that had on the pro-vaccination side an actual medical doctor pointing out all the ways it's prevented avoidable deaths while also explaining the fact the entire anti-vaccination study is grounded on a single fraudulent study that made the author lose their medical license... And then on the anti-vaccination side, arguing against the actual guy with a medical doctorate and years of research, was a soccer mom without any actual medical qualifications who is simply associated with an anti-vaccination organization, who just said that everything the doctor was saying was propaganda or part of some conspiracy, and then goes onto explaining how her first child got a vaccination and was diagnosed with Autism, and her second didn't get vaccinated and wasn't autistic, which obviously forever proves that vaccines cause Autism. It really is depressing how easily some people buy into the, 'The entire scientific community is propagating a conspiracy for no real reason to cause x bad thing,' mindset. It's the same thing with global warming, all of the climate scientists at some point decided to play a giant practical joke on the world and have been for decades lying and forging evidence to prove that the planet is heating up, all because they can.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;47504911]I am still morbidly curious as to how the fuck that movement even got started in the first place. I mean, was it some guys attempt at trolling dumb anti-vax parents that went over-board or something? A poor attempt at a joke on Tumblr? What started it all?[/QUOTE] Bleach is commonly used in homeopathy since the idea is that you use diluted poisons to clear yourself of an illness. The bleach enemas themself are probably harmless since you're supposed to use like a ridiculously low concentration of bleach in water
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;47506002]Bleach is commonly used in homeopathy since the idea is that you use diluted poisons to clear yourself of an illness. The bleach enemas themself are probably harmless since you're supposed to use like a ridiculously low concentration of bleach in water[/QUOTE] It's still absolutely ridiculous the extent that people will go through with shit like this. I know there's mountains of evidence to the contrary, but I would still very much like to believe that people can't [B]possibly[/B] be [B]that[/B] stupid.
[QUOTE=Kommodore;47502828]what an incredibly shit way of dealing with the anti-vax issue [editline]11th April 2015[/editline] if 99% of the problem with anti-vax is caused from lacking the education to know better then it seems pretty fucking cynical to assume threatening poor people with welfare cuts has any effect whatsoever on the underlying structure of the problem[/QUOTE] My problem is it only damages poor anti-vaxxers, when a lot of anti-vaxx communities are well off. Make it mandatory, full stop. [QUOTE=ScottyWired;47502854]Shit as in shitty, or shit as in ineffective? Because it's definitely not the latter, withholding money from people until they stop endangering their children sounds pretty effective to me. You don't need education to understand "get shots or you don't get money" [editline]11th April 2015[/editline] I mean sure it's a pretty strong-arm method but as long they're forced to get vaccines, who gives a shit whether they understand why or not? There's always going to be that hardcore group who'll remain antivax no matter how many educational posters you throw at them[/QUOTE] Withholding money from [B]poor [/B]people. Unless I have some misunderstanding about how welfare works in Australia. [QUOTE=ScottyWired;47502938]True, but no issue can be changed with just a single law. Looking at the recent trend this'll be just one of several acts by government to make sure all Australians are vaccinated, this one is just targeting the lower class demographics. The only problem with dealing with the issue through education is that fear-mongering spreads much faster than truthful information. In the race to get people to take a stance on vaccines, antivax movements can be much more aggressive with their information networks since no one is regulating the bullshit they spout.[/QUOTE] I don't understand why we can't fear-monger harder? We have legitimate fears. Vaccinate your child or they'll get polio and [B][I]DIE[/I][/B] horribly, they'll give other kids polio and they'll [B][I]DIE [/I][/B]horribly. Should work better than "oh no autism"
Much as I like the principal, whacking people with a giant financial stick is just going to entrench them further. "If vaccines are safe, why are they bullying us into getting them!?" :rolleyes: As shitty as it sounds, the only way these people will quit being idiots is when their kids start dying of preventable diseases. We're gonna have to sit around and wait for some kids to bite the dust from polio or measles or something, then make sure their parents are on every TV in the developed world sobbing hysterically about how they could have saved their child if only they didn't listen to Jenny McCarthy.
[QUOTE=GamerKiwi;47508675]Withholding money from [B]poor [/B]people. Unless I have some misunderstanding about how welfare works in Australia. [/QUOTE] You're already required to have vaccines to get family welfare, this is just making sure that people can't submit a bullshit reason to not be vaccinated and still get get the money. [QUOTE=GamerKiwi;47508675]I don't understand why we can't fear-monger harder? We have legitimate fears. Vaccinate your child or they'll get polio and [B][I]DIE[/I][/B] horribly, they'll give other kids polio and they'll [B][I]DIE [/I][/B]horribly. Should work better than "oh no autism"[/QUOTE] Yeah but people are daredevils and will gladly risk getting polio if it means they don't have to be injected with a syringe full of scary science stuff.
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