The phrase "Under God" should be removed from the pledge for the simple fact that it is unconstitutional.
The U.S Constitution clearly forbids all mention of God and in a public, government-funded school is this not endorsement of religious belief?
I submit that forcing children in public schools to say/hear "Under God" is a dogmatic and brainwashing attempt to indoctrinate children by the religious right-wing.
It wasn't there to start with and shouldn't be there now.
It is indeed unconstitutional.
Saying the pledge should be optional anyway.
Or just throw it out because it's pointless.
[QUOTE=Rhinovirus;32384044]
I submit that forcing children in public schools to say/hear "Under God" is a dogmatic and brainwashing attempt to indoctrinate children by the religious right-wing.[/QUOTE]
Not really, im pretty sure that line was put in at a time where an atheist was such a rare find, that the whole christian thing really was appropriate.
I could not care less whether it's there or not, and it sounds like a costly, shit spewing, drawn out court battle just waiting to happen. Oh wait.
I mean should kids say it? It's no longer required (not in my state.) But it should be their choice whether they do or not. I don't know, I'm just not the kind of guy to care and make a fuss about what's on my bills or in a pledge. It could say "In allah we trust," I really don't give a shit. Is that terrible of me?
[QUOTE=Turnips5;32384099]It wasn't there to start with and shouldn't be there now.
It is indeed unconstitutional.[/QUOTE]
it seems that you're giving your opinion that it's unconstitutional, could you provide a court case reference to back up your statements?
you can use this site to help you: [url]http://www.findlaw.com/casecode/[/url]
I don't mind saying it if anything when I do the pledge I like to think of my friend that died in 9/11. I personally think its a little pointless trying to get rid of it like how people wanted to get rid of that Christmas tree the President puts up.
wasn't there some whole big debacle a while back about school sponsored prayer at graduation? if that's not constitutional then this isn't either
also, only kind of related, but if separation of church and state was truly enforced, there wouldn't be any laws against gay marriage.
"Under God" is a divisive, non-inclusive statement that undermines the very beliefs and goals of America's founding fathers.
And don't think I can't talk about this as a Canadian, I've read a lot more about American history and the people who created the nation than most Americans ever will, and I can assure you, the founding fathers would be rolling in their graves if they could, screaming "SEPARATION OF CHRUCH AND STATE"
[QUOTE=ntzu;32384121]Not really, im pretty sure that line was put in at a time where an atheist was such a rare find, that the whole christian thing really was appropriate.[/QUOTE]It was put in in 1954 to give the pledge the "characteristic and definitive factor in the American way of life". I feel it should be taken out because it's unconstitutional, not to mention definitely doesn't to accomodate for polytheistic religions.
Considering it was added in the 1950s during the Red Scare it's pretty damned pointless.
Yes. It absolutely does need to be removed from the pledge (and everywhere else in government), along with all references to God and any form of religion.
[QUOTE=wlzshroom;32384207]
also, only kind of related, but if separation of church and state was truly enforced, there wouldn't be any laws against gay marriage.[/QUOTE]
That's now more of a social problem than a religious, the religious reasoning is used a argument to excuse the fact that it's no more than pure bigotry.
And the U.S has a history rich of pointless bigotry.
I don't think so. It is a very comforting thing to many people, and if it bothers you that much, you could always just be silent when that part is said.
I don't know where you guys go but it's not required to say it (the pledge) if you don't want to. And the people who do get up don't really say it anymore, rather they just put their hands on their chest.
[QUOTE=GoldenGnome;32384287]I don't think so. It is a very comforting thing to many people, and if it bothers you that much, you could always just be silent when that part is said.[/QUOTE]
I just don't say the pledge at all now.
If it's not going to recognize me I'm not going to recognize it.
Not only that, saying god is with your country sounds really nationalistic to me.
[QUOTE=Fables;32384269]And the U.S has a history rich of pointless bigotry.[/QUOTE] Much like every other nation that has ever existed.
I also think if it was removed that you'd be controlling your child's environment and would eventually lead to other things like removing "In God We Trust" from our currency. I mean would you cover your child's ears if they heard someone else say "Oh my god!" or "Jesus help me!".
[QUOTE=loco;32384205]I don't mind saying it if anything when I do the pledge I like to think of my friend that died in 9/11. I personally think its a little pointless trying to get rid of it like how people wanted to get rid of that Christmas tree the President puts up.[/QUOTE]
Hey, if the president wants to put up a Christmas tree, let him. Let him say "I'm celebrating MY holiday on behalf of my family." Just because he's the president, doesn't mean he has to live his life like he represents every American's value with everything he does.
Any who, I remember someone saying that the term "under god" wasn't put in on account of religion, and to look it up.
I did.
It WAS because of some church, or Christian group.
So, yes. It SHOULD be removed.
I think all religious shit including "god bless america:downs:" should just go.
We're a superpower in the 21st century, and this shit is embarrassing.
[QUOTE=loco;32384310]I also think if it was removed that you'd be controlling your child's environment and would eventually lead to other things like removing "In God We Trust" from our currency. I mean would you cover your child's ears if they heard someone else say "Oh my god!" or "Jesus help me!".[/QUOTE]
The funny thing is that "In God We Trust" should be removed as well. There are lots of Americans who don't trust God.
Also, it's not the Pledge of Allegiance itself that is unconstitutional, it is the laws that force yo uto say it.
[QUOTE=loco;32384310]I also think if it was removed that you'd be controlling your child's environment and would eventually lead to other things like removing "In God We Trust" from our currency. I mean would you cover your child's ears if they heard someone else say "Oh my god!" or "Jesus help me!".[/QUOTE]
Well, phrases like "Oh my god!" or "Jesus Christ..." in forms of exasperation have just seemed to be part of culture, with no other phrase existed to replace them. Just like "God bless you."
[editline]19th September 2011[/editline]
But yes, "In God We Trust" should definitely be removed.
[QUOTE=Folgergeist;32384352]I think all religious shit including "god bless america:downs:" should just go.
We're a superpower in the 21st century, and this shit is embarrassing.[/QUOTE]I don't see how it's embarrassing. It's just against our principal of separation of church and state.
Also while in court you put your hand on the bible and swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth so help me God. What if you don't believe, can you just lie then?
My schools stopped doing the pledge, I don't think it really matters because at most they'll do the pledge in elementary school, once they hit middle and high school, they'll be able to decide for themselves what they want to do when it comes to religion so I don't think it matters.
[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32384363]The funny thing is that "In God We Trust" should be removed as well. There are lots of Americans who don't trust God.
Also, it's not the Pledge of Allegiance itself that is unconstitutional, it is the laws that force yo uto say it.[/QUOTE]
Wait, there's a law that forces you to say it?
[QUOTE=Shiftyze;32384388]Also while in court you put your hand on the bible and swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth so help me God. What if you don't believe, can you just lie then?[/QUOTE]
you are also given the option to simply affirm that you will tell the truth in court
I do believe it should be taken, not for any reason concerning myself, but purely for the fact that it is technically the idea of a non-specific, monotheistic religion being taught in a school.
As for phrases like "oh my god," I believe that is a phrase the basically means "I now have knowledge of something that challenges the level of absurdity of an all knowing creator of the universe", so it's a fine thing to say.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;32384368]Well, phrases like "Oh my god!" or "Jesus Christ..." in forms of exasperation have just seemed to be part of culture, with no other phrase existed to replace them. Just like "God bless you."
[editline]19th September 2011[/editline]
But yes, "In God We Trust" should definitely be removed.[/QUOTE]
Well who is to say that the pledge hasn't become a part of our culture as well? I kinda feel like it is a part of American history the same with "In God We Trust".
AFAIK, the founding fathers disliked the church in general, and most of them were deists (Jefferson edited a version of the bible sans supernatural horseshit, I believe). Yeah, they knew the corrupting effects the church could have on a government, with Europe's churches being proof. They wanted separation, not out of disbelief of a god (like I said, they were mostly deists or separatist christians who hated the church) but rather because they knew of the influence a religious organization with vested interests could have on people, and how people could get swayed/bullied.
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