• Pastors prepare to take on IRS over political endorsement ban
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[QUOTE]When Ron Johnson takes take his pulpit on Sunday, he will willfully break the law. After presenting his views on President Barack Obama’s handling of religious issues –- like abortion, gay marriage, and religious freedom - Johnson will ask his congregation a question. “In light of what I have presented,” Johnson says he will say, “How can you go into that election booth and vote for Barack Obama as president of the United States?” What Johnson plans to do is in violation of the IRS’ so-called Johnson Amendment, a 1954 law that has made it illegal for churches that receive tax exempt status from the federal government to intervene in “any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office.” Why is Johnson so brazenly violating that law this Sunday? Strength in numbers: He will be joined by at least 1,400 others pastors across the United States. Johnson’s sermon is part of a wider effort by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative Christian legal organization that since 2008 has organized Pulpit Freedom Sunday, when they encourage and pledge to help pastors who willfully violate the Johnson Amendment by endorsing from the pulpit. The movement is growing – and quickly. Pulpit Freedom Sunday had 33 churches participating in 2008, and 539 last year. The goal: Force the IRS to come down on these churches so that the Alliance Defending Freedom, whose network includes 2,200 attorneys, can test the Johnson Amendment’s constitutionality. “The IRS has the ability and the authority to regulate their sermons. We are giving them the opportunity to do that and if they challenge that, we will challenge that in court,” said Eric Stanley, Alliance Defending Freedom's senior legal counsel. “It is all about creating a test case to find the Johnson amendment as unconstitutional.” With 31 days until Americans elect their next president, what is said at this year’s Pulpit Freedom Sunday could hold more sway than in previous years. “I do think that the fact that it is an election year does make a difference,” Stanley said. “It is very relevant right now. Pastors who participate are speaking to something facing their congregation right at this moment.” Johnson, who leads an evangelical church in Crown Point, Indiana, said he will not explicitly endorse Mitt Romney, the Republican challenger, but will vehemently challenge President Barack Obama, including calling the president’s policies “un-American.” “As a pastor, I am going to tell it like I see it and I am going to communicate from the word of God,” Johnson said. “I hope that on Election Day, I hope that I have influenced people to protect their conscience.” Critics charge that the movement is a Republican front dressed up as an exercise in religious freedom. When CNN asked to be put in touch with a church that plans to endorse the president, representatives from the organization said they don’t screen who the churches plan to endorse. The two pastors that the Alliance Defending Freedom put CNN in touch with plan to either criticize the president or endorse Romney. “I think there is a possibility that in some of these mega-churches, a pastor's saying it is OK to vote for Mitt Romney … could increase voter turnout,” said Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. “The ADF wants to elect the next president. They want to elect Mitt Romney.” So far, the effort has received little to no response from the IRS. After the sermons are delivered on Sunday, pastors participating in the Pulpit Freedom event are encouraged to send videos of their remarks to the nation’s tax collection agency. According to Stanley, the majority of the messages in past years have gone unnoticed and only a handful of pastors receive letters, some of which threaten to revoke the churches tax exempt status. This trend of what some IRS watchdogs call nonenforcement has emboldened pastors and the Alliance Defending Freedom. According to pastors who have participated in the past, the fact that the IRS rarely if ever comes down on the churches emboldens them to keep endorsing. Stanley and the Alliance Defending Freedom theorize that the IRS doesn’t want to be challenged in court and that the agency may be disorganized. The IRS did not immediately respond to CNN’s request for comment. Lynn and Americans United say that bureaucratic uncertainty as to what level of IRS official can initiate an investigation leads to lack of enforcement. In the past, the IRS has investigated churches that they suspected of violating the Johnson Amendment. Four days before the presidential election in 1992, the Landmark Church in Binghamton, New York, ran a full-page ad in USA Today that said, "Christians Beware," and that was followed by a list of Clinton's positions on homosexuality, abortion and the distribution of condoms. At the bottom, the church asked for donations to help pay for the ad. According to Lynn, Americans United filed a complaint, and in 1995 the church lost its tax-exempt status. Landmark Church Pastor Dan Little took the IRS to court, arguing that the agency was violating the church's First Amendment rights and that the agency was only able to revoke the tax-exempt status of a "religious organization," not an actual church. Both a federal judge and an appeals court rejected those arguments. When asked about people who question whether a pastor should be allowed to endorse from the pulpit, Johnson, the Indiana pastor, laughs. “Pastors understand how the so called separation of church and state, as it is currently understood. We understand how marginalized we are becoming,” Johnson said. “We are supposed to be part of the community discussion about issues that matter.”[/QUOTE] Source: [url]http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/05/pastors-prepare-to-take-on-irs-over-political-endorsement-ban/[/url]
trying to enforce a hivemind, I see. Let people decide for themselves, you shmuck. Stop advertising your opinion completely unrelated to the religion in a church.
Mass arrest of pastors please
That's a lot of churches, meaning if they were to lost their tax-exempt status, it'd be a lot of potential revenue for the government. Fine by me, please, tempt the IRS.
If you ever go to a church, try to find the car the pastor drives and see if it's a car that's valued under 60k. They can seriously afford to pay taxes and unless they're actively helping people and the community, they shouldn't receive any form of exemption.
[QUOTE=Nikota;37936640]If you ever go to a church, try to find the car the pastor drives and see if it's a car that's valued under 60k. They can seriously afford to pay taxes and unless they're actively helping people and the community, they shouldn't receive any form of exemption.[/QUOTE] Pastors and their churches are not the same thing. That said, I hope the IRS calls them on it and starts demanding taxes paid.
All religious entities should be taxed. They aren't special organisations.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37936870]All religious entities should be taxed. They aren't special organisations.[/QUOTE] They're people, just like organizations.
[QUOTE=Nikota;37936640]If you ever go to a church, try to find the car the pastor drives and see if it's a car that's valued under 60k. They can seriously afford to pay taxes and unless they're actively helping people and the community, they shouldn't receive any form of exemption.[/QUOTE] Funny story actually, my pastor back home has a side job writing a review column for new cars, so every week he's driving around a new one
I hope the mighty fist of the IRS comes down hard on these churches.
[quote]“In light of what I have presented,” Johnson says he will say, “How can you go into that election booth and vote for Barack Obama as president of the United States?”[/quote] because i don't want a giant fat asshole sitting in the whitehouse spewing shit all over america
[QUOTE=Nikota;37936640]If you ever go to a church, try to find the car the pastor drives and see if it's a car that's valued under 60k. They can seriously afford to pay taxes and unless they're actively helping people and the community, they shouldn't receive any form of exemption.[/QUOTE] My Pastor is a professor with a doctorate at a university, before that he worked with the county government in the county next over to mine. Just because he has wealth doesn't necessarily mean it's all from one source. [editline]6th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Bentham;37936582]That's a lot of churches, meaning if they were to lost their tax-exempt status, it'd be a lot of potential revenue for the government. Fine by me, please, tempt the IRS.[/QUOTE] For every "rich megachurch" you see, there are hundreds of poor churches that get by barely. This isn't going to be a great deal of revenue in any way. It'll be pocket change, at best.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37936870]All religious entities should be taxed. They aren't special organisations.[/QUOTE] If you impose taxes on churches, then you could just throw the entire establishment clause out the window. The US government cant impose a tax on them and not let them represent their interests in congress.
that doesn't really matter when there are shitloads of rich megachurches. also the poor churches scam these poor souls just as much as megachurches.
[QUOTE=Splash Attack;37937426]If you impose taxes on churches, then you could just throw the entire establishment clause out the window. The US government cant impose a tax on them and not let them represent their interests in congress.[/QUOTE] As long as their interests are secular I see no issue.
[QUOTE=The DooD;37936394]Mass arrest of pastors please[/QUOTE] And execution...
[QUOTE=Bomimo;37937601]And execution...[/QUOTE] Man is it me or is it getting genocidal in here?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37936870]All religious entities should be taxed. They aren't special organisations.[/QUOTE] Separation of Church and State
[QUOTE=Splash Attack;37937426]If you impose taxes on churches, then you could just throw the entire establishment clause out the window. The US government cant impose a tax on them and not let them represent their interests in congress.[/QUOTE] We're not making them pay taxes now, and their interests have a serious chance of being made law, simply because they have a religious basis. There's no difference between a church saying something themselves and having someone speak directly for them and their doctrine.
[QUOTE=The DooD;37936394]Mass arrest of pastors please[/QUOTE] The spaghetti industry has controlled our government for too long
[QUOTE=Burgervich;37938736]Separation of Church and State[/QUOTE] Indeed, the church has to pay taxes like everyone else. One odd thing is that Scientology isn't tax exempt in France, but is tax exempt in the US.
[QUOTE=Splash Attack;37937426]If you impose taxes on churches, then you could just throw the entire establishment clause out the window. The US government cant impose a tax on them and not let them represent their interests in congress.[/QUOTE] Do you really think Christianity and religious groups as is DON'T have a demonstrated set of interests in congress and the senate? Without paying any taxes? They have a lot of influence politically.
It's kind of an issue of freedom of speech... I think Stephen Colbert has a good opinion on this point, his satire aside. Just let them say what they want. However, they need to be aware of the consequences. Getting your religion all over politics isn't a one-way street; politics is bound to end up all over your religion as well. Do you really want to go down that road? I think it's necessary to allow them to say what they want, but they also need to be aware that it's a dangerous road to go down.
[QUOTE]Johnson, who leads an evangelical church in Crown Point, Indiana, said he will not explicitly endorse Mitt Romney, the Republican challenger, but will vehemently challenge President Barack Obama, including calling the president’s policies “un-American.”[/QUOTE] God, a being with absolute power and authority who does not require the approval of his subjects, is far more un-American than anything that Barack Obama has ever done. No true American would ever bow to such a tyrant.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;37936380]trying to enforce a hivemind, I see. Let people decide for themselves, you shmuck. Stop advertising your opinion completely unrelated to the religion in a church.[/QUOTE] Many issue in politics do very much relate to issue in religion. Really, allowing pastors and other church figures to endorse candidates wont hurt anyone.
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;37939785]Many issue in politics do very much relate to issue in religion. Really, allowing pastors and other church figures to endorse candidates wont hurt anyone.[/QUOTE] It shouldn't have anything to do with religion though.
[QUOTE=Splash Attack;37937426]If you impose taxes on churches, then you could just throw the entire establishment clause out the window. The US government cant impose a tax on them and not let them represent their interests in congress.[/QUOTE] They already can dude, who do you think donated to prop 8?
[QUOTE=Nikota;37936640]If you ever go to a church, try to find the car the pastor drives and see if it's a car that's valued under 60k. [/QUOTE] Oh god and facepunch is usually in LOVE with calling people out on generalizing a whole group of people.
[QUOTE=The Baconator;37939970]They already can dude, who do you think donated to prop 8?[/QUOTE] Not churches
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;37940172]Not churches[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Catholic_Bishops_Donate_200K_to_Prop_8_Fight.html?fullSite=y[/url] [url]http://m.voices.yahoo.com/proposition-8-donors-much-did-mormon-church-2608706.html[/url] You were saying? (Sorry for the mobile sites)
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