[img]http://i.imgur.com/BTtog44.png[/img]
[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/10/30/heres-why-nsa-officials-never-seem-to-stop-talking-about-911/[/url]
[quote]NSA talking points prepared to respond to the wave of leaks about surveillance practices advised officials to cite 9/11 to justify programs, according to a document obtained by Al Jazeera America via a Freedom of Information request.
“I much prefer to be here today explaining these programs, than explaining another 9/11 event that we were not able to prevent,” was among the suggested responses, as was "NSA and its partners must make sure we connect the dots so that the nation is never attacked again like it was on 9/11."
And it appears officials have taken that advice to heart: Sept. 11 or 9/11 was mentioned 14 times during a House Intelligence Committee hearing about the leaks Tuesday -- five of them from NSA Director Gen. Keith B. Alexander. In one of his early mentions he gave the specific death count for the terrorist attack when explaining the origin of the programs: "How did we end up here? 9/11 -- 2,996 people were killed in 9/11."[/quote]
[url=https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/813055/nsa-talking-points.pdf]The document (PDF)[/url]
Guys, I don't think the NSA needs to be spying on American citiz-
BUT 9/11, WHAT ARE YOU? A TERRORIST? I BET YOU FLEW THOSE PLANES INTO THE TOWERS YOURSELF!!!1
WITHOUT THE NSA MORE PEOPLE COULD DIE
you wouldn't want that would you? it'd be a shame if your family just so happened to die in a terrorist attack all because you didn't support us, that would be terrible.
9/11 fundamentally changed the way people in America viewed terrorism and was the direct catalyst for every counter-terrorism initiative since then. The PATRIOT Act that started this ball rolling was overwhelmingly passed specifically because people didn't want an event like 9/11 to ever happen again.
It's not surprising that reminding people of that is the best they can do with a press release, and obviously they're not trying to hide it if all Al Jazeera had to do to get it was file a FOIA request.
do you guys in other countries have an equivalent of 9/11?
like do you guys ever watch political debates on tv in london and somebody goes "hey what about that one time the americans didn't want the stamp tax" and suddenly gets everyone to support them?
To prevent 9/11 from happening again, we'll just kill thousands of civilians from other countries and piss off the rest of the world by spying on them. That'll make sure that nothing like 9/11 ever happens again in this great country of ours. Remember, it's better to make sure that anyone who could harm us is dead, rather than having another 9/11 on our hands. 9/11. Don't forget it, because if you do, we lose one of our biggest bargaining chips. 9/11, it's what's for dinner.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42705814]do you guys in other countries have an equivalent of 9/11?
like do you guys ever watch political debates on tv in london and somebody goes "hey what about that one time the americans didn't want the stamp tax" and suddenly gets everyone to support them?[/QUOTE]
We had the July 7th bombings.
You know, there's going to come a time when 9/11 will be history and won't scare the public every time it's mentioned.
They'll just look back on it like the red scare and think it was so silly in the future.
[QUOTE=valkery;42705821]To prevent 9/11 from happening again, we'll just kill thousands of civilians from other countries and piss off the rest of the world by spying on them. That'll make sure that nothing like 9/11 ever happens again in this great country of ours. Remember, it's better to make sure that anyone who could harm us is dead, rather than having another 9/11 on our hands. 9/11. Don't forget it, because if you do, we lose one of our biggest bargaining chips. 9/11, it's what's for dinner.[/QUOTE]
9/11, It's America's Favorite Ketchup™
[QUOTE=Saxon;42706027]They'll just look back on it like the red scare and think it was so silly in the future.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, the Red Scare was a circumstance of paranoia and aggression towards Stalin, communism and socialism in general, a byproduct of America in a competitive arms race with Russia out of fear that Russia might become a deadly superpower willing to throw its weight around and cause trouble for everyone. While we had close calls, Stalin's actions causing many tragedies in Russia and other countries, and probably numerous dead spies on both sides, the Red Scare and the Cold War surrounding it didn't ever go into full-blown chaos in a deathly carnage unleashed upon a populated city like 9/11 did.
I'm not sure if i'm phrasing it entirely right, but what i'm trying to say is that the Red Scare formed political and social policies out of paranoia that was partially founded, partially just everyone being dicks to eachother. 9/11, as much as it's overused even today by the politicians and the media to get their way, had a far more sudden impact on the U.S. when nearly 3,000 end up dead from a handful of extremists deciding to organize and terrorize people.
The government, to a degree, does have the right to try and prevent further circumstances like that from happening, but obviously if things like the Boston Bombings still occur despite all the information the NSA and CIA get daily on pretty much every single person they need to know about (and they [i]had[/i] info on the bombers, but some idiot basically shirked it off), then obviously they're not doing a very good job about it nor very responsible with the information.
To prevent another 9/11, we could all just skip it and pretend it's September 12th instead.
NSA hire me please for 200 grand a year I solved terrorism.
[QUOTE=MasterFen006;42705938]We had the July 7th bombings.[/QUOTE]
I remember when the CNN coverage of the 2012 olympics decided to cut out the 7/7 memorial.
No duh. Anyone who's been alive long enough to remember the world both before and after 2001 can see that.
Nearly every stupid security decision in the past twelve years has been justified by preying on people's fear of another 9/11. We went to two wars, instated the PATRIOT Act, massively intruded on citizens' rights and freedoms, and in general screwed over pretty much every relevant branch of government all because of that one tragedy - not that wasn't indeed a [i]tragedy,[/i] but even the casualties in either war alone has far exceeded the 3,000 people that died during the attack. It's been used as an excuse - yes, an [b]excuse[/b] - for nearly everything in the modern political world. Everything has been motivated by fear since that day. Talk about "mission accomplished" for the terrorists.
Hell, hasn't the entire M.O. of the GOP been for the past decade to repeatedly say, "You don't want another 9/11, [i]do[/i] you?" in lieu of any real arguments?
[QUOTE=AfroNick;42706429]To prevent another 9/11, we could all just skip it and pretend it's September 12th instead.
NSA hire me please for 200 grand a year I solved terrorism.[/QUOTE]
"B-but we must NEVER FORGET"
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42705814]do you guys in other countries have an equivalent of 9/11?
like do you guys ever watch political debates on tv in london and somebody goes "hey what about that one time the americans didn't want the stamp tax" and suddenly gets everyone to support them?[/QUOTE]
They have to support America, because if something bad happens to us, Piers Morgan might come back.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;42706717]They have to support America, because if something bad happens to us, Piers Morgan might come back.[/QUOTE]
PLEASE ENGLAND TAKE HIM BACK
WE'LL PAY ANY PRICE YOU WANT
Here's the thing though... leaving aside the NSA's PR decisions, they're kind of right.
What did America collectively shout at the top of its lungs for years after 9/11?
[B]Never
Again.[/B]
You can't have "never again" and privacy at the same time.
hey it worked for the past twelve years, who's to say it won't work for the next twelve years
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;42706774]Here's the thing though... leaving aside the NSA's PR decisions, they're kind of right.
What did America collectively shout at the top of its lungs for years after 9/11?
[B]Never
Again.[/B]
You can't have "never again" and privacy at the same time.[/QUOTE]
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin
[QUOTE=RichyZ;42706824]ben franklin didn't live in the age of the internet and spaceships
just sayin[/QUOTE]
That's true, but that doesn't make what he says irrelevant.
[QUOTE=UziXxX;42706800]Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin[/QUOTE]
This quote is so overused by people who don't actually seem to quite get why it's not applicable any more.
We can have both safety and liberty, it's really not hard. Personal freedoms are at a (mostly) all time high, you can do near enough whatever you want. Work for who you want within reason, live how you like. And you are still safe, laws are in place to protect you from harm, without impeding on your ability to function as an independent, autonomous actor.
What's next, you're going to throw that blood of patriots watering the tree of freedom at us?
[QUOTE=UziXxX;42706800]Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin[/QUOTE]
That sentiment was relevant neither in the 18th century nor now.
[editline]30th October 2013[/editline]
Also just because an old, womanizing satirist said something doesn't make it true.
Franklin was still a badass tho.
this is about as bad as using korea as an excuse for vietnam
[editline]30th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Explosions;42706930]That sentiment was relevant neither in the 18th century nor now.
[editline]30th October 2013[/editline]
Also just because an old, womanizing satirist said something doesn't make it true.
Franklin was still a badass tho.[/QUOTE]
its not exactly as relavent as it was back then, franklin was a bit of an idealist when it came to politics, but that asside, using 9/11 consistantly as an excuse for more and more survalence is bogus, the shear scale of what they do is barely concievable, they have created a system for monitoring [B]all of it. [/B] there is no way you can justify a warent to collect and listen to phonecalls for 60 million people, let alone several billion people. there are better ways to find the one person you are looking for than trolling through billions of messages a day for one coded message about terrorism. Counter-inteligence has existed for decades, it worked just fine hunting down people before the advent of this system, its just they took the easiest route and decided instead of actually actively focusing on the threats, they passively listen in on everything until they get a hit on their big computer
[QUOTE=UziXxX;42706800]Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin[/QUOTE]
Ben Franklin? The father of American spycraft? The guy who used his position as ambassador to France, our closest and most trusted ally at the time, to spy on their government?
That's the guy you're quoting to condemn the NSA?
[QUOTE=catbarf;42707205]Ben Franklin? The father of American spycraft? The guy who used his position as ambassador to France, our closest and most trusted ally at the time, to spy on their government?
That's the guy you're quoting to condemn the NSA?[/QUOTE]
This is all ad hominem. Hypocrisy aside, he's still not wrong in saying it, and it doesn't preclude it from being an ideal to strive for.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;42707354]This is all ad hominem. Hypocrisy aside, he's still not wrong in saying it, and it doesn't preclude it from being an ideal to strive for.[/QUOTE]
There's a reason nobody ever says:
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Barry, that guy from the pub.
It's because they apply what they assume the founding fathers would think about certain situations (appeal to authority, if we're going to be listing logical fallacies). If their perceived pinion is no longer relevant, they it might as well just be some nice saying any asshole could have made up.
If the NSA are so good at preventing terrorism, then why did the Boston bombings happen?
These colors don't run Mr. Gorbachev
[QUOTE=Badballer;42707628]If the NSA are so good at preventing terrorism, then why did the Boston bombings happen?[/QUOTE]
If schools are so good at teaching, why did someone think this was a logical argument?
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