• Mitt Romney Sure Is A Job Creator: American Airlines Listening To Advice From Bain Capital, Cutting
    32 replies, posted
[url]http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/02/05/romneys-firm-instructs-american-airlines-to-sack-13000-workers/[/url] [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/01/american-airlines-wants-cut-13000-bankruptcy_n_1247753.html[/url] [release]On Wednesday, February 1st, American Airlines announced that it will take the advice of Mitt Romney’s firm, [b]Bain Capital, and lay off 13,000 workers -15 percent of its workforce- replacing their pension plans with 401(k) plans and ending company-paid retiree healthcare.[/b] The lay off announcement came only seven days after American Airlines hired Bain Capital to guide it through a bankruptcy procedure for which the airline had filed last November. American Airlines spokesperson told the Wall Street Journal, the cost of hiring Bain – hourly fees of up to $1,100- as “a usual and necessary part of the Chapter 11 process. We will be reviewing these costs carefully to ensure that they are monitored and managed appropriately.” Bain Capital is a private equity firm, which was founded by a group of Bain & Co. partners including current Republican presidential frontrunner Mitt Romney. Romney formally retired from Bain Capital in 1999 [b]but still continues to receive a portion of Bain Capital profits as Romney’s 2010 tax returns show an “obligation to continue to provide services to Bain.”[/b] Joshua Gotbaum, director of The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) – the federal agency that helps secure failed pension plans – said “before AMR takes such a drastic action as firing 13,000 workers and [b]killing the pension plans of 130,000 employees and retirees[/b], it needs to show there is no better alternative. The company had failed to provide even basic financial details.” James Little the President of Transport Workers Union (TWU), which represents 24,000 workers said “We’re going to fight this. I have a hard time sitting back when American Airlines is taking hard-earned money to pay[b] $525,000 a month to have Bain[/b] come in and tell them how to cut heads.” Little also mentioned Mitt Romney, “He’s talking about creating jobs. He’s not a job creator. He’s a job cremator.” [b]AMR plans to purchase hundreds of new aircrafts to replace them with more fuel efficient ones to cut fuel use.[/b] U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane has not yet approved the new jet order but temporarily approved AMR’s proposal to retain Bain and 11 other firms for bankruptcy counsel, but withheld final approval. Unions are outraged that the airline would order hundreds of new aircrafts but claim it is in severe enough financial distress to sack employees and cut pension plans.[/release] [img]http://mittromneycentral.com/uploads/Mitt_Romney_Jobs-e1308094431856.png[/img]
mitt romney is a massive penis
This makes absolutely no sense.
Hey, with unemployment dropping, they've got to do something to make the government/economy look like it's just as bad
You guys do know how much it costs for hundreds of Jet planes right? In the billions and tens of billions.
What a DOUSHE.
I wonder how Fox is going to blame this on Obama?
[QUOTE=JustGman;34579680]I wonder how Fox is going to blame this on Obama?[/QUOTE] Not Obama. They'll blame Unions for being outrageous somehow.
I don't get it, how does Mitt Romney have [i]anything[/i] to do with this?
[QUOTE=SPESSMEHREN;34579745]I don't get it, how does Mitt Romney have [i]anything[/i] to do with this?[/QUOTE] he founded Bain Capital and continues to pull fees from them
I'm going to have to say, I don't think this is exactly Romney's fault. The company was filing for bankruptcy. You're going to have massive rounds of layoffs.
You guys act as though Bain is going around getting people laid off for fun. American Airlines is trying to crawl its way out of bankruptcy, people are going to lose jobs regardless if Bain is there or not. Its better to have a company such as Bain come in and effectively try to bring the company out of bankruptcy instead of American Airlines continuing to struggle, which eventually would leave to more job loss.
Mitt has not been apart of bain since 1999, all he gets is retirement from them now.... this part “obligation to continue to provide services to Bain” doesn't mean jack shit and just gives them a reason to pay him, try harder op.
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;34580412]You guys act as though Bain is going around getting people laid off for fun. American Airlines is trying to crawl its way out of bankruptcy, people are going to lose jobs regardless if Bain is there or not. Its better to have a company such as Bain come in and effectively try to bring the company out of bankruptcy instead of American Airlines continuing to struggle, which eventually would leave to more job loss.[/QUOTE] And yet they're able to purchase hundreds of brand new jet planes, the price of them being around 200 million dollars each.
[QUOTE=ScottyTripod;34580494]Mitt has not been apart of bain since 1999, all he gets is retirement from them now.... this part “obligation to continue to provide services to Bain” doesn't mean jack shit and just gives them a reason to pay him, try harder op.[/QUOTE] Romney's IRA has anywhere from $20.7 million to $101.6 million in it. Most of that money has been made off of both his retirement pension [b]AND[/b] as well the tremendous amount of investment holdings he still has in Bain Capital. From the beginning of 2010 to August 12, 2011, his IRA grew anywhere between $1.5 million and $8.5 million. Those funds came from both the pension and his investments. [url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204468004577168972507188592.html[/url] So to say "all he gets is retirement from them now" is a major understatement and frankly wrong.
[QUOTE=Nikota;34579612]You guys do know how much it costs for hundreds of Jet planes right? In the billions and tens of billions.[/QUOTE] And if they can afford to drop the coin on those jets they can afford to keep the pensions. It's not rocket science. Hell they don't even need to buy new jets, just retrofit the old ones with new engines. MUCH cheaper than replacing the whole damn fleet.
[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;34580796]Romney's IRA has anywhere from $20.7 million to $101.6 million in it. Most of that money has been made off of both his retirement pension [b]AND[/b] as well the tremendous amount of investment holdings he still has in Bain Capital. From the beginning of 2010 to August 12, 2011, his IRA grew anywhere between $1.5 million and $8.5 million. Those funds came from both the pension and his investments. [url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204468004577168972507188592.html[/url] So to say "all he gets is retirement from them now" is a major understatement and frankly wrong.[/QUOTE] You truly don't understand, he does jack shit anymore, of course he invests in it, its proven to work and he knows everything about the company, he helped create it. When he left he made it so he would get a large payment from the company each year, the “obligation to continue to provide services to Bain” is just a reason for these checks on paper. I know a few vice presidents or other higher ups of major company's, this is what they told me. His case though may be an outlier, but he probably just keeps tabs on them and isn't really part of the inner workings of the company anymore since his retirement in 1999.
[QUOTE=Nikota;34580770]And yet they're able to purchase hundreds of brand new jet planes, the price of them being around 200 million dollars each.[/QUOTE] Evidently they believe purchasing more fuel efficient jets will help cut cost, once again in an attempt to get out of bankruptcy. Obviously in the state they are in things need to change, they are not buying new planes for the fuck of it.
Great. My step-dad works for AA and the entire family is worried about his job. This sucks.
[QUOTE=ScottyTripod;34580925]You truly don't understand, he does jack shit anymore,[/quote] He is currently still one of the largest investors in the company. He makes massive amounts of money off of them. He was one of the three founders. He does more than jack shit. Investors alone have a great amount of power in how a company functions in such areas as what political policies they adopt, what issues the company should spend money on, etc. Especially investors as big as he is, never mind the fact he used to be one of the company's heads (and as such has an influential and authoritative proceeding reputation). Hell, he led the lobbying charge on their behalf for the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act in 1999 even [i]after[/i] he'd officially left Bain. That should tell you just how pro-active he was (and indeed still is) in the company's affairs. [QUOTE=ScottyTripod;34580925]of course he invests in it, its proven to work and he knows everything about the company, he helped create it. When he left he made it so he would get a large payment from the company each year, the “obligation to continue to provide services to Bain” is just a reason for these checks on paper.[/quote] Again, investors have more significant roles in companies than what you are making them out for. Apparently you aren't aware of how he got his holdings, either. Before he left, he negotiated an agreement with Bain & Company that allowed him to receive a retirement pension and investment funds in Bain Capital. That alone gave him a lot of control at his discretion over them even after he'd left, along with the justification of his "obligation to continue to provide services" to the company. He makes large amounts of money off them through his investment holdings and his retirement pension, and he still has a lot of influence and power over the company. That's that. [QUOTE=ScottyTripod;34580925]I know a few vice presidents or other higher ups of major company's, this is what they told me.[/QUOTE] Any names? For these vice presidents and "other higher ups of major companies", I mean? Any names for the companies themselves, for that matter?
You know business don't cut 13,000 jobs and all of these pension plans while smoking big cigars in Aruba, right? The airline industry is taking a massive dick slap, and has been since 2001. Among other things, the new regulations since 9/11 has cut their profits massively. Put that in with UPS and Fedex, who took the entire air freight industry, and you see things like this happen.
[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;34581367]He is currently still one of the largest investors in the company. He makes massive amounts of money off of them. He was one of the three founders. He does more than jack shit. Investors alone have a great amount of power in how a company functions in such areas as what political policies they adopt, what issues the company should spend money on, etc. Especially investors as big as he is, never mind the fact he used to be one of the company's heads (and as such has an influential and authoritative proceeding reputation).[/quote] [URL="http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/01/12/the-bain-bomb-fizzles/"]"Romney left Bain in 1999 and had no operational role thereafter. It is true that he remained an investor, but so did dozens of university endowments, private foundations and pension systems. None of them played a part in Bain's investment decisions or portfolio company management."[/URL] If you think CNN is lying then so be it, but they actually looked into what he does. [QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;34581367] Hell, he led the lobbying charge on their behalf for the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act in 1999 even [i]after[/i] he'd officially left Bain. That should tell you just how pro-active he was (and indeed still is) in the company's affairs.[/quote] This went into effect a few months after mitt left bain and I would like to see a source please? [QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;34581367] Again, investors have more significant roles in companies than what you are making them out for. Apparently you aren't aware of how he got his holdings, either. Before he left, he negotiated an agreement with Bain & Company that allowed him to receive a retirement pension and investment funds in Bain Capital. That alone gave him a lot of control at his discretion over them even after he'd left, along with the justification of his "obligation to continue to provide services" to the company. He makes large amounts of money off them through his investment holdings and his retirement pension, and he still has a lot of influence and power over the company. That's that.[/quote] I am pretty sure what I posted was in agreement with most of this, except he doesn’t have much of any control anymore as you can see in the CNN article I linked. Furthermore, most of his money is tied into multiple blind trusts which means he doesn't have knowledge of where his money is invested, a third party handles them. Most politicians do this to protect themselves from unwanted problems down the road. [QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;34581367] Any names? For these vice presidents and "other higher ups of major companies", I mean? Any names for the companies themselves, for that matter?[/QUOTE] One was a senior Vice President for Bank of America, the other two worked for Procter and Gamble. I am not going to give any names though.
So what you're saying is that American Airlines managed to save 85% of it's workforce from layoffs by following Romney's company's advice?
[QUOTE=Ridge;34582271]So what you're saying is that American Airlines managed to save 85% of it's workforce from layoffs by following Romney's company's advice?[/QUOTE] you spin me right round baby right round like a record baby right round round round
[QUOTE=ScottyTripod;34581918][URL="http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/01/12/the-bain-bomb-fizzles/"]"Romney left Bain in 1999 and had no operational role thereafter. It is true that he remained an investor, but so did dozens of university endowments, private foundations and pension systems. None of them played a part in Bain's investment decisions or portfolio company management."[/URL] If you think CNN is lying then so be it, but they actually looked into what he does.[/quote] CNN points out the obvious: he didn't stay on as a company head ("had no operational role thereafter") and he possesses to this day investment holdings in the company (they failed to mention just how many and his [url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204468004577168972507188592.html]large quantities of wealth accumulated from these holdings[/url]). But the last part is just factually incorrect. The New York Times just in December of last year reported on how [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/us/politics/retirement-deal-keeps-bain-money-flowing-to-romney.html?pagewanted=all]his huge investment holdings and very generous retirement pension funds still give him a large amount of influence and power over Bain[/url]. [QUOTE=ScottyTripod;34581918]this went into effect a few months after mitt left bain and I would like to see a source please? [/quote] I know. I even said "after he'd officially left". And [url=http://mykeystrokes.com/2011/12/23/mitt-romney-relied-on-corporate-welfare-how-bain-capital-leveraged-government-assistance-to-boost-profits/]HERE'S[/url] an excellent, comprehensive article on the lobbying Romney had Bain doing before and after he'd left for the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act in 1999 with lots of useful internal citations and details (the firms they used, who they paid money to, sums paid, etc.). [QUOTE=ScottyTripod;34581918]I am pretty sure what I posted was in agreement with most of this, except he doesn’t have much of any control anymore as you can see in the CNN article I linked.[/quote] Which isn't the case as both the Wall Street Journal article and the New York Times article point out. He still retains a lot of control, influence, and power in the company- primarily due to his investment holdings but boosted as well by his retirement pension agreement. [QUOTE=ScottyTripod;34581918]Furthermore, most of his money is tied into multiple blind trusts which means he doesn't have knowledge of where his money is invested, a third party handles them. Most politicians do this to protect themselves from unwanted problems down the road.[/quote] I'd like to see a citation for this, because it's not brought up anywhere in your CNN article. Nor is it in my Wall Street Journal and New York Times articles. [QUOTE=ScottyTripod;34581918]One was a senior vice President for bank of America, the other two worked for Procter and gamble. I am not going to give any names though.[/QUOTE] Forgive us all then if we are a bit skeptical of such claims of yours. There's no harm to be done simply by giving us their names. You just gave us one chap's position and whom he worked for; we can figure out if we really press the matter his name already. What positions did these other two "officials" hold at Proctor & Gamble?
[QUOTE=Ridge;34582271]So what you're saying is that American Airlines managed to save 85% of it's workforce from layoffs by following Romney's company's advice?[/QUOTE] This only works if the alternative choice was to shut down the entire company and lay off 100% of the workers or was some other option that somehow laid off more than 15% of the workforce.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34582344]you spin me right round baby right round like a record baby right round round round[/QUOTE] As if Nikota didn't put an even worse spin on it
[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;34582488]CNN points out the obvious: he didn't stay on as a company head ("had no operational role thereafter") and he possesses to this day investment holdings in the company (they failed to mention just how many and his [url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204468004577168972507188592.html]large quantities of wealth accumulated from these holdings[/url]). But the last part is just factually incorrect. The New York Times just in December of last year reported on how [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/us/politics/retirement-deal-keeps-bain-money-flowing-to-romney.html?pagewanted=all]his huge investment holdings and very generous retirement pension funds still give him a large amount of influence and power over Bain[/url].[/quote] You are clearly wrong sir, if you look at your own sources you will see that the [URL="https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/us/politics/retirement-deal-keeps-bain-money-flowing-to-romney.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all"]NY times[/URL] said that "By giving Mr. Romney a stake in funds after his departure, Bain’s partners effectively compensated him for his founding interest in the firm without having to write him a large check or taking Bain public, which would have allowed Mr. Romney to continue holding equity in the firm or cash out by selling his shares on the public market." Which was completely normal because they aren’t public. Furthermore, the [URL="https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/us/politics/retirement-deal-keeps-bain-money-flowing-to-romney.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all"]NY times[/URL] wrote that bain officials explained “Mitt Romney has had no involvement with the management of the firm or any of our investments since February 1999…” so no, he does not have any involvement rather than just getting a check from them. [QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;34582488]I know. I even said "after he'd officially left". And [url=http://mykeystrokes.com/2011/12/23/mitt-romney-relied-on-corporate-welfare-how-bain-capital-leveraged-government-assistance-to-boost-profits/]HERE'S[/url] an excellent, comprehensive article on the lobbying Romney had Bain doing before and after he'd left for the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act in 1999 with lots of useful internal citations and details (the firms they used, who they paid money to, sums paid, etc.).[/quote] First I shouldn’t even respond to that source since it’s a blog, but I did read it and at no point did it say that Romney was part of bain’s lobbying for the Gramm Leach Bliley Act, he was part of the lobbying for the winter Olympics at that time, though only if the article can be trusted is that true. But this has nothing to do with bain so I don’t see how any of this is relevant. [QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;34582488]Which isn't the case as both the Wall Street Journal article and the New York Times article point out. He still retains a lot of control, influence, and power in the company- primarily due to his investment holdings but boosted as well by his retirement pension agreement.[/quote] In the [URL="https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/us/politics/retirement-deal-keeps-bain-money-flowing-to-romney.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all"]NY times[/URL] article it said that "much of his wealth has migrated into investments outside the company or into family trusts, including an additional $100 million set aside for his five sons. " also I already quoted the part in the NY times article where it says he had no influence on the company after 1999, I don’t know why you can’t understand this. [QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;34582488]I'd like to see a citation for this, because it's not brought up anywhere in your CNN article. Nor is it in my Wall Street Journal and New York Times articles.[/quote] You again are wrong, “After taking office in 2003, Mr. Romney moved the bulk of his assets into two blind trusts, according to his Massachusetts financial disclosures. Today, many of the family’s Bain assets appear to be held in Mrs. Romney’s blind trust.” That is in your [URL="https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/us/politics/retirement-deal-keeps-bain-money-flowing-to-romney.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all"]NY Times[/URL] article. Additionally in the [URL="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204468004577168972507188592.html"]WSJ[/URL] article you gave it says "Mr. Romney's investments currently are held in a blind trust, meaning that he no longer makes decisions about individual holdings." Is that enough for you? [QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;34582488]Forgive us all then if we are a bit skeptical of such claims of yours. There's no harm to be done simply by giving us their names. You just gave us one chap's position and whom he worked for; we can figure out if we really press the matter his name already. What positions did these other two "officials" hold at Proctor & Gamble?[/QUOTE] I told you I don’t want to go too far into details and I just destroyed your argument with the sources you provided, so I really have no need to include them anymore. Try to actually read your sources next time before you use them and don’t talk about a subject that you know nothing about. Thanks.
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;34582929]As if Nikota didn't put an even worse spin on it[/QUOTE] Simply because one person did something stupid on an opposing side does not validate someone doing something equally stupid (more or less) on yours. Someone doing something stupid on an opposing side does not invalidate any criticisms imposed on someone doing something equally stupid (more or less) on your side, either. Is it hypocritical? Yes. But that's not logically pertinent. See: [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque"]tu quoque[/URL]
[QUOTE=joes33431;34583601]Simply because one person did something stupid on an opposing side does not validate someone doing something equally stupid (more or less) on yours. Someone doing something stupid on an opposing side does not invalidate any criticisms imposed on someone doing something equally stupid (more or less) on your side, either. Is it hypocritical? Yes. But that's not logically pertinent. See: [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque"]tu quoque[/URL][/QUOTE] I agree wholeheartedly, it's just that Zeke can be a little one-sided
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