[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh_JAWvSXkU[/media]
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40853378[/url]
[quote]Jeremy Corbyn has said he is "very sad" at lives lost in Venezuela and condemned violence done "by any side".
The Labour leader called for a dialogue in the country, where more than 120 people have died during months of anti-government protests.
He has been under pressure to condemn President Nicolas Maduro, after voicing support for him in the past.
Mr Maduro has been accused of behaving like the "dictator of an evil regime" by Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson.[/quote]
Not the time for neutrality.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52548589]Not the time for neutrality.[/QUOTE]
Some people seem to think they have to defend anyone under the same banner for some reason. Because Maduro is far-left, he needs to be defended even if he's a massive cunt that is destroying his country and trying to suppress large-scale unrest while grabbing for more power. Not sure why, maybe they fear that condemning someone under the same banner would de-legitimize themselves?
No, Corbyn, only one side has falsely imprisoned thousands, tortured students and dissidents, stolen billions of dollars and opened fired into unarmed crowds. Cut out this bullshit about there being two sides, there's a criminal government enforcing its illegitimate rule through violence, and there's citizens who have had enough and are demanding their constitutional right. The only reason it has gotten this far is because Corbyn and other ill informed socialists have played into Maduro's bullshit and have spread the absurd idea that the opposition is formed by right-wing white bourgeoisie fascists backed by the CIA. All it takes is one fucking look at the country to know how wrong that is.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52548777]No, Corbyn, only one side has falsely imprisoned thousands, tortured students and dissidents, stolen billions of dollars and opened fired into unarmed crowds. Cut out this bullshit about there being two sides, there's a criminal government enforcing its illegitimate rule through violence, and there's citizens who have had enough and are demanding their constitutional right. The only reason it has gotten this far is because Corbyn and other ill informed socialists have played into Maduro's bullshit and have spread the absurd idea that the opposition is formed by right-wing white bourgeoisie fascists backed by the CIA. All it takes is one fucking look at the country to know how wrong that is.[/QUOTE]
He cares more about the political façade than he does about the country
as most leaders tend to do to try to stay in power, the shameless hacks
Cop out.
God, Corbyn is a moron. Too tied to his ideology and wannabe people's hero to understand that Maduro is a tyrant
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52548913]God, Corbyn is a moron. Too tied to his ideology and wannabe people's hero to understand that Maduro is a tyrant[/QUOTE]
He probably understands that last bit perfectly fine. But Corbyn is a hardline pacifist, willing to meet and talk with everyone involved in a conflict, even those clearly in the wrong, in an attempt to actually start dialogue and end the violence sooner. He's not super great at accusing the wrong side outright either.
It obviously doesn't always work. But it's how he's been for quite some time now. I'm all but certain if he called for the removal of Maduro by force the media would be jumping up and down throwing a tamtrum about "u-turn corbyn!!". Dude really can't win in this position.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;52548931]He probably understands that last bit perfectly fine. But Corbyn is a hardline pacifist, willing to meet and talk with everyone involved in a conflict, even those clearly in the wrong, in an attempt to actually start dialogue and end the violence sooner. He's not super great at accusing the wrong side outright either.
It obviously doesn't always work. But it's how he's been for quite some time now. I'm all but certain if he called for the removal of Maduro by force the media would be jumping up and down throwing a tamtrum about "u-turn corbyn!!". Dude really can't win in this position.[/QUOTE]
Who gives a fuck about what the media would say when he's making a shit infront of actual fucking people.
This stance isn't acceptable. I'm a pacifist as well but there's a point where peace isn't going to happen and that point has been passed in Venuzalia.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52548947]Who gives a fuck about what the media would say when he's making a shit infront of actual fucking people.[/QUOTE]
But the "actual fucking people" of the UK, the place he cares more about (despite preferring him over every other dickhole running last GE, he's fairly isolationist in a few places) are the ones who will read the tabloids that jump on him for the slightest thing. He can't win, so why take a stance he clearly doesn't hold? I think the only group I can recall him willingly condemning to retaliatory attacks are terrorist organisations like ISIS. I can't recall him ever doing something similar for a government, legitimate or not.
He does take his pacifism to stupid lengths a lot of the time. In some ways that's admirable, but it can also be quite naive.
Why aren't we doing the same with the Turkish leader despite him being just as bad? Last I checked we even support him.
[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;52548992]Why aren't we doing the same with the Turkish leader despite him being just as bad? Last I checked we even support him.[/QUOTE]
Maybe because he's a NATO ally
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52549039]Maybe because he's a NATO ally[/QUOTE]
Which I believe is wrong at this stage. Turkey is not a good ally at this stage, not with Erdogan at its head.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52548913]God, Corbyn is a moron. Too tied to his ideology and wannabe people's hero to understand that Maduro is a tyrant[/QUOTE]
He's not even an elected official at this point, what do you want him to do, call to war against Maduro? Like it or not, just being a socialist talking head does not enable you to dismantle a regime in another continent. Will nothing short of corbyn impotently flailing his limbs at the issue do it for you?
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52548777]No, Corbyn, only one side has falsely imprisoned thousands, tortured students and dissidents, stolen billions of dollars and opened fired into unarmed crowds. Cut out this bullshit about there being two sides, there's a criminal government enforcing its illegitimate rule through violence, and there's citizens who have had enough and are demanding their constitutional right. The only reason it has gotten this far is because Corbyn and other ill informed socialists have played into Maduro's bullshit and have spread the absurd idea that the opposition is formed by right-wing white bourgeoisie fascists backed by the CIA. All it takes is one fucking look at the country to know how wrong that is.[/QUOTE]
Right-wing quasi-fascists have always been a thing in south america tbh, CIA help or not, and it's kinda hard to say whatever CIA is, or isn't involved, especially considering their "stellar" long record of meddling here in SA, plus there is south american right-wing tendency of doing everything the US wants and beyond, generally to the detriment said country, any socialist would(or at least should) be cautious of condemning Maduro on that alone, while also thinking he is completely inept for the job to say the least.
[QUOTE=Scarabix;52549885]He's not even an elected official at this point, what do you want him to do, call to war against Maduro? Like it or not, just being a socialist talking head does not enable you to dismantle a regime in another continent. Will nothing short of corbyn impotently flailing his limbs at the issue do it for you?[/QUOTE]
He could just call out Maduro and say that he should listen to the people of his country and step down, actually.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52549995]Right-wing quasi-fascists have always been a thing in south america tbh, CIA help or not, and it's kinda hard to say whatever CIA is, or isn't involved, especially considering their "stellar" long record of meddling here in SA, plus there is south american right-wing tendency of doing everything the US wants and beyond, generally to the detriment said country, any socialist would(or at least should) be cautious of condemning Maduro on that alone, while also thinking he is completely inept for the job to say the least.[/QUOTE]
If your bullshit paranoia gets in the way of a people's right of self-determination, then you have failed as an anti-imperialist. The Venezuelan people demand a change in government because the one they have right now is the most corrupt, criminal and inept in the country's history, standing against a change in government is being accomplice to their crimes.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52550035]He could just call out Maduro and say that he should listen to the people of his country and step down, actually.[/QUOTE]
I agree it would be better politically if he said that, but I guess he could be thinking that since Maduro has gone through all this effort to consolidate power it's unlikely he will just give it up. What Corbyn has said though is that the Venezuelan government needs to do a lot more to solve the poverty crisis, and to respect the human rights of citizens.
yeah corbyn's stance generally on things is "maybe we shouldn't be so quick to get involved in foreign fights" so this makes sense coming from him.
I don't really see it as him defending leftism, more just warning others that we don't need to take sides in every single fight across the world.
Yeah I assume it's partly that by publicly taking sides you can be sure that the side you condemned won't want to engage in dialogue with you, making it harder to convince them to amend their behaviour. If anything they'll become more entrenched and hostile if they feel more isolated from other nations.
Also I can sort of see why he would be strictly pacifist, even in cases where the only foreseeable way to oust a dictator is through violent revolution. If I recall correctly, even successful violent revolutions that have good intentions often get exploited by even more tyrannical groups, or lead to short-lived governments rendered unstable by the economic turmoil the revolution caused. More effective and stable changes happen when the existing government reforms of its own volition, although that happens more slowly.
Reminds me of that interview where he wouldn't explicitly condemn the IRA, but again went with the cop-out of "I condemn all violence". He needs to get off the fence - there are certain things you cannot remain neutral on.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52550227]If your bullshit paranoia gets in the way of a people's right of self-determination, then you have failed as an anti-imperialist. The Venezuelan people demand a change in government because the one they have right now is the most corrupt, criminal and inept in the country's history, standing against a change in government is being accomplice to their crimes.[/QUOTE]
"Bullshit paranoia" with regards with a nation that has a long history of disliking leftist governments(whatever in name only or not), combined with the fact latin america is one of the most corrupt places in the planet and has one the most corrupt and many times borderline fascist elites in the planet, but yes "it's bullshit paranoia".
Even better when similar shit is happening in other places(like Brazil, with members of our new right-wing government curiously giving shit to american oil companies as soon as they got in power).
[url]https://www.pragmatismopolitico.com.br/2016/02/pre-sal-jose-serra-prometeu-a-chevron-que-entregaria-nosso-petroleo.html[/url]
And the asshole in question, actually succeeded at it, in case you're curious.
I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if Venezuela got rid of maduro, only for shit to get far, far worse and of course, disappear from the news, as it's usual when right-wing governments take power and start fucking up in latin america(most of the planet tbh), i honestly have yet to see a single right-wing government actually fix shit in latin america, and not just make it worse, far worse.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550506]"Bullshit paranoia" with regards with a nation that has a long history of disliking leftist governments(whatever in name only or not), combined with the fact latin america is one of the most corrupt places in the planet and has one the most corrupt and many times borderline fascist elites in the planet, but yes "it's bullshit paranoia".
Even better when similar shit is happening in other places(like Brazil, with members of our new right-wing government curiously giving shit to american oil companies as soon as they got in power).
[url]https://www.pragmatismopolitico.com.br/2016/02/pre-sal-jose-serra-prometeu-a-chevron-que-entregaria-nosso-petroleo.html[/url]
And the asshole in question, actually succeeded at it, in case you're curious.
I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if Venezuela got rid of maduro, only for shit to get far, far worse and of course, disappear from the news, as it's usual when right-wing governments take power and start fucking up in latin america(most of the planet tbh), i honestly have yet to see a single right-wing government actually fix shit in latin america, and not just make it worse, far worse.[/QUOTE]
That just proves how uninformed you are about this topic. These corrupt elites that you speak of [I]are the ones in power[/I], the executive branch is collectively worth billions in dirty money. We want the corrupt elites out. We don't give a shit about your right wing, left wing nonsense, everything is already miserable except for those in power, all we want is our democracy back.
This corrupt right wing dictatorship you fear of is in no way different from the reality Venezuelans are living in today. The poor in Venezuela are beyond marginalized under Maduro.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52550538]That just proves how uninformed you are about this topic. These corrupt elites that you speak of [I]are the ones in power[/I], the executive branch is collectively worth billions in dirty money. We want the corrupt elites out. We don't give a shit about your right wing, left wing nonsense, everything is already miserable except for those in power, all we want is our democracy back.[/QUOTE]
You make it sound like maduro and his cronies are the sole elite in venezuela, which is obviously not true, are you seriously suggesting that venezuelan right-wing is so pure and nice(despite being one the reasons socialists are in power in the first place, democratically, for several years), and "merely wish for democracy"?
Regardless, i don't think maduro will last anyway, he is a self-declared socialist, who fucked over the economy, and clearly isn't very good at politics, you only get to do that and stay in power if you're right-wing in latin america, he will be ousted one way or another, and venezuela will probably get the austerity/privatizations/etc experience, which will fuck over the poor even harder, as it is usual over here.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550560]You make it sound like maduro and his cronies are the sole elite in venezuela, which is obviously not true, are you seriously suggesting that venezuelan right-wing is so pure and nice(despite being one the reasons socialists are in power in the first place, democratically, for several years), and "merely wish for democracy"?[/quote]
what right-wing?
the maduro and chavez government have spent years driving dissidents out of the country, throwing them into prisons, or murdering them.
what other elite is there in Venezuela? there's nothing left but the regime now
[quote]Regardless, i don't think maduro will last anyway, he is a self-declared socialist, who fucked over the economy, and clearly isn't very good at politics, you only get to do that and stay in power if you're right-wing in latin america, he will be ousted one way or another, and venezuela will probably get the austerity/privatizations/etc experience, which will fuck over the poor even harder, as it is usual over here. [/QUOTE]
surely you must be joking
how can you make things it any worse with "austerity" (although the Venezuelan government doesn't even bother to pay for food imports anymore) when the country is in the middle of a fucking famine?
I mean how dishonest do you have to be, to look at a country that's objectively gotten worse and become a shithole that millions flee from, and conclude that the opposition (somehow composed of far-right loonies) is the genuine concern when the government is literally gunning down unarmed protesters in the streets?
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52549046]Which I believe is wrong at this stage. Turkey is not a good ally at this stage, not with Erdogan at its head.[/QUOTE]
Geopolitics. The last thing NATO officials want is Turkey being scooped up into a close pact with Russia.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550560][B]Regardless, i don't think maduro will last anyway, he is a self-declared socialist, who fucked over the economy, and clearly isn't very good at politics, you only get to do that and stay in power if you're right-wing in latin america, he will be ousted one way or another,[/B]
and venezuela will probably get the austerity/privatizations/etc experience, which will fuck over the poor even harder, as it is usual over here.[/QUOTE]
You're not only blinded by ideology, you're also incredibly naive.
You basically said that left wing extremism can't be dangerous and that left wing dictatorships can't exist because of that reason, even though we can see the obvious uprising of a regime ruled with an iron fist.
This has [B]nothing[/B] do to with left or right wing, this is about preserving democracy and it's pretty pathetic that you're not taking it seriously just because Maduro is left wing.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550560]You make it sound like maduro and his cronies are the sole elite in venezuela, which is obviously not true, are you seriously suggesting that venezuelan right-wing is so pure and nice(despite being one the reasons socialists are in power in the first place, democratically, for several years), and "merely wish for democracy"?
Regardless, i don't think maduro will last anyway, he is a self-declared socialist, who fucked over the economy, and clearly isn't very good at politics, you only get to do that and stay in power if you're right-wing in latin america, he will be ousted one way or another, and venezuela will probably get the austerity/privatizations/etc experience, which will fuck over the poor even harder, as it is usual over here.[/QUOTE]
I am, yes. I am telling you, from what I know as a Venezuelan, about Venezuela, that the power lies squarely on Maduro and his goons. Again, if you knew anything about yhe country, you'd understand this isn't a simple left / right thing.
The poor are already experiencing cruel austerity, they're facing privatization on the hands of the military, Maduro has sold our resources off to the Russians and the Chinese, to whom we have debts we can't pay. Maduro sold PDVSA off to Goldman Sachs after selling them billions in bonds at 30 cents to the dollar. The things that you fear will happen to Venezuela are what's happening now.
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