• Australian Defence Minister David Johnston won't rule out Australian help for US forces fighting Isl
    32 replies, posted
[IMG]http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/5662026-16x9-940x529.jpg[/IMG] [QUOTE]Defence Minister David Johnston is not ruling out offering military assistance to US forces fighting what Prime Minister Tony Abbott says is an Islamic State (IS) "terrorist army" in Iraq. Thousands of members of the Yazidi minority remain besieged by IS forces on Mount Sinjar, as the extremists press their assault across northern Iraq in the face of continuing US air strikes. US and British aircraft have dropped relief supplies to the Yazidis, who face slaughter at the hands of the Islamists if they descend from the mountain, amid claims insurgents have already killed hundreds of Yazidis by burying them alive. "We're not ruling out providing some backup assistance to the Americans as they go in and deal kinetically with this terrorist organisation," he said. "This terrorist organisation [Islamic State] is to be extremely feared and taken with great seriousness. We've seen atrocities, we've seen all manner of things. Who knows what the future holds with these people? "We are ready to assist in whatever way we can should we be asked to assist by the Americans and the Iraqi government. "The fact is this could turn very, very nasty in a very short space of time and I think anything's to be expected. And I don't believe right-minded countries can just sit back and watch atrocities unfold on their nightly television without taking some action." This morning Mr Abbott, speaking in the Netherlands, branded IS a "terrorist army" and said it was carrying out "hideous atrocities". He was referring to a photo, published today, purporting to show the Sydney-born seven-year-old son of an Australian jihadist brandishing the severed head of a Syrian soldier. "Australia will gladly join the humanitarian airlift to the people stranded on Mount Sinjar," Mr Abbott said. "We do have some Hercules C-130 aircraft in the Middle East. We have a C-17 that is bringing humanitarian supplies from Australia in the next day or so and we would expect that humanitarian airlift should it be needed some time later in the week. "Islamic State, as they are now calling themselves, it is not just a terrorist group, it is a terrorist army. They are seeking not just a terrorist enclave, but effectively a terrorist state, a terrorist nation. "This does pose extraordinary problem, extraordinary problems, not just for the people of the Middle East but for the wider world. "We see more and more evidence of just how barbaric this entity is. I believe there are more photographs in the newspapers today of the kind of hideous atrocities that this group is capable of."[/QUOTE] [URL]http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-11/australia-could-support-military-campaign-against-islamic-state/5661476[/URL] I don't know how I feel about having Australian boots helping the US since we just wrapped up the Afghanistan campaign
fighting for something that has nothing to do with us is just plain stupid
[QUOTE=shackleford;45654419]fighting for something that has nothing to do with us is just plain stupid[/QUOTE] If nobody does anything, I see IS becoming a serious threat world-wide. While I suppose they are doing what they think is right, they are really not doing things right. And by right I mean morally. Though, It seems they have been making the 'right' tactical decisions given their massive gains in power and territory.
[QUOTE=shackleford;45654419]fighting for something that has nothing to do with us is just plain stupid[/QUOTE] thinking it has nothing to do with you when you can reach anywhere in the world in a few hours is just plain stupid
[QUOTE=shackleford;45654419]fighting for something that has nothing to do with us is just plain stupid[/QUOTE] [img]http://googlingtheholocaust.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/adolf-the-wolf.jpg[/img]
I'm starting to think we should but I know there'll be heavy opposition to it
It's a terrible idea which would vastly overstep the role of Australia globally. I absolutely oppose any moves to send Australian soldiers to the middle east, regardless of how comically evil ISIL are.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;45655866]It's a terrible idea which would vastly overstep the role of Australia globally. I absolutely oppose any moves to send Australian soldiers to the middle east, regardless of how comically evil ISIL are.[/QUOTE] [t]http://i57.tinypic.com/19t3bc.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;45655866]It's a terrible idea which would vastly overstep the role of Australia globally. I absolutely oppose any moves to send Australian soldiers to the middle east, regardless of how comically evil ISIL are.[/QUOTE] I dunno, the stance of "let someone else handle this one" doesn't really seem like a good one to take in a situation like this/ever. If helping keep innocent lives out of genocidal madmen's hands is something a nation considers overstepping some arbitrary moral boundaries, then maybe those lines need to be stepped over when some people this fucked are marauding through the middle east.
[QUOTE=evilweazel;45655922]I dunno, the stance of "let someone else handle this one" doesn't really seem like a good one to take in a situation like this. If helping keep innocent lives out of genocidal madmen's hands is something a nation considers overstepping some arbitrary moral boundaries, then maybe those lines need to be stepped over when some people this fucked are marauding through the middle east.[/QUOTE] ISIL is just the visible manifestation of an underlying conflict which Australia couldn't possibly hope to solve. As terrible as what is happening in Iraq the role Australia would play would be negligible and, indeed, harmful. Could you imagine the coup it would be for ISIL and its allies to point at the US/AUS and say 'they are the soldiers you'll be fighting'? It isn't as simple as removing the bad guys, as the 2003 invasion showed. To go in, pummel a bunch of militants then leave is impossible. You have to ask yourself 'who would we be supporting'? Maliki? He's a sectarian despot who agitated the conflict with his confrontational style. Is he better than ISIL? yeah, but that doesn't mean removing ISIL would do anything to improve the broken edifice he runs, or indeed mend the crimes his own side committed against people. Australia's role would be a square peg for a round hole. I don't give a shit for any treaty obligations we could have towards the US. It's a terrible idea that would only create new problems for Australia, problems we shouldn't have.
[QUOTE=shackleford;45654419]fighting for something that has nothing to do with us is just plain stupid[/QUOTE]Nice to know you are totally fine with genocide! Thanks for letting everyone know. This isn't a "hmm, not too sure what to think here..." deal, it's pretty much cut and dry at this point.
We desperately need to intervene here, I'm 50/50 about supplying weapons but we have to do something.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;45656011]You have to ask yourself 'who would we be supporting'? Maliki? He's a sectarian despot who agitated the conflict with his confrontational style. Is he better than ISIL? yeah, but that doesn't mean removing ISIL would do anything to improve the broken edifice he runs, or indeed mend the crimes his own side committed against people.[/QUOTE]Uh? This isn't about supporting anyone, it's about stopping an atrocity.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;45655866]It's a terrible idea which would vastly overstep the role of Australia globally. I absolutely oppose any moves to send Australian soldiers to the middle east, regardless of how comically evil ISIL are.[/QUOTE] Who says they have to be in the middle east. You could fly jets in from out at sea.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;45656043]Uh? This isn't about supporting anyone, it's about stopping an atrocity.[/QUOTE] Don't be naive. An intervention would literally need to support someone, anyone really, in order to be successful. The US isn't some omnipresent force dedicated to stopping atocities, they have their interests there and they would like to maintain those interests. [editline]11th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Aide;45656073]Who says they have to be in the middle east. You could fly jets in from out at sea.[/QUOTE] Yes, as Australia, a noted military superpower, has extensive force projection abilities. If even the UK and France ran out of missiles in weeks bombing Libya, which was close enough to Europe to do it from their own bases, what fucking hope does Australia have in the middle-east?
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;45656077]Don't be naive. An intervention would literally need to support someone, anyone really, in order to be successful. The US isn't some omnipresent force dedicated to stopping atocities, they have their interests there and they would like to maintain those interests. [editline]11th August 2014[/editline] Yes, as Australia, a noted military superpower, has extensive force projection abilities. If even the UK and France ran out of missiles in weeks bombing Libya, which was close enough to Europe to do it from their own bases, what fucking hope does Australia have in the middle-east?[/QUOTE] What, we don't even have our canberra-class LHD yet, not to mention the F-35's we ordered nearly 5 years ago, we'll only get two for training-and-conversion this year. We won't even have a fully-operational squdron until 2017, possibly later (seeing as the full-rate production of the F-35 isn't due to start until 2018) Australia is only a regional powerhouse with the added benefits of being bound to the western world superpowers through ANZUS, our strategic location to South-East Asia and our historical connections to her majesty the Queen & the former British empire. Back on topic though, this was bound to happen. Pretty much all of the supposed effort the Coalition troops did in Iraq for nearly 7 years is falling apart and we're back to square one. Knowing how much the ADF, the federal government (aka the liberal-national coalition) and the GG have a hard-on for war procurements (seeing as the incumbent Governor-General is a retired general of the Australian Army) which they all collect dividends from (except the voters & general public.) it's something that we can't really do much about because those in parliament could not care less about those who'd be having to fight and the families who would be affected from their loved ones dying from fighting a conflict that has nothing to do with them.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;45656077]Don't be naive. An intervention would literally need to support someone, anyone really, in order to be successful. The US isn't some omnipresent force dedicated to stopping atocities, they have their interests there and they would like to maintain those interests.[/QUOTE]Yeah, not having a batshit crazy political entity that slaughters people because muh rulijuns in a strategically important region counts as an interest. I'm not sure what the fuck that has to do with Australia or it's repeated commitments to upholding human rights, but whatever. What we do has little to do with Australia, you're your own country and unless we really are omnipresent then whatever you do will be your choice. Don't hide behind the fact that we're not saints and call me naive just so you can rationalize ignoring people being slaughtered like unwanted vermin.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;45656182]Yeah, not having a batshit crazy political entity that slaughters people because muh rulijuns in a strategically important region counts as an interest. I'm not sure what the fuck that has to do with Australia or it's repeated commitments to upholding human rights, but whatever. What we do has little to do with Australia, you're your own country and unless we really are omnipresent then whatever you do will be your choice. Don't hide behind the fact that we're not saints and call me naive just so you can rationalize ignoring people being slaughtered like unwanted vermin.[/QUOTE] I called you naive because you think that an intervention would have nothing to do with supporting someone, but rather directed at stopping atrocities occurring. If you can't see that the actual act of intervening on behalf of the Iraqi army to combat ISIL is supporting the current Iraqi government, than I don't know what to tell you. Nor do I know what to tell you when you accuse me of being somehow morally deficient when it comes to my opposition to Australia intervening. I believe ISIL is a digusting entity and I absolutely oppose everything they stand for. I also believe that world politics requires a little more finesse than an on/off switch between military action and disinterest. I especially believe that Australia has neither the capabilities nor the justification to be involved in such a conflict, and that any participation by Australia would only further contribute to the problem. On the face of these beliefs, I don't support intervention. I mean, to say that I am ignoring the plight of people by resisting military action is a pretty tall order. [editline]11th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=shutter_eye5;45656173]What, we don't even have our canberra-class LHD yet, not to mention the F-35's we ordered nearly 5 years ago, we'll only get two for training-and-conversion this year. We won't even have a fully-operational squdron until 2017, possibly later (seeing as the full-rate production of the F-35 isn't due to start until 2018) Australia is only a regional powerhouse with the added benefits of being bound to the western world superpowers through ANZUS, our strategic location to South-East Asia and our historical connections to her majesty the Queen & the former British empire.[/QUOTE] I was being sarcastic. We are, as you said, only a regional power.
I hope the US doesn't send troops back. That would also be bad.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;45656266]I called you naive because you think that an intervention would have nothing to do with supporting someone, but rather directed at stopping atrocities occurring. If you can't see that the actual act of intervening on behalf of the Iraqi army to combat ISIL is supporting the current Iraqi government, than I don't know what to tell you. Nor do I know what to tell you when you accuse me of being somehow morally deficient when it comes to my opposition to Australia intervening. I believe ISIL is a digusting entity and I absolutely oppose everything they stand for. I also believe that world politics requires a little more finesse than an on/off switch between military action and disinterest. I especially believe that Australia has neither the capabilities nor the justification to be involved in such a conflict, and that any participation by Australia would only further contribute to the problem. On the face of these beliefs, I don't support intervention. I mean, to say that I am ignoring the plight of people by resisting military action is a pretty tall order.[/QUOTE]You're right, I shouldn't imply you're A-OK with ISIS and I'm sorry for that implication but Australia's quite capable of providing humanitarian relief and I don't think you'd disagree with that. Still, while most international issues require more thought than "MURICA SMASH" this is one situation where military intervention is [i]thoroughly[/i] justified. Even if the Iraqi government benefits from this, it doesn't change the hard fact that ISIS needs to get fucking demolished. I'd elaborate further about this but I'm forced to use the on-screen keyboard to type so that ain't happening, sorry. [editline]11th August 2014[/editline] Also, does anyone else think that guy on the left looks like Billy Mays?
[QUOTE=shackleford;45654419]fighting for something that has nothing to do with us is just plain stupid[/QUOTE] What's even fucking dumber is letting a bunch of terrorists literally carve out their own country.
[QUOTE=shackleford;45654419]fighting for something that has nothing to do with us is just plain stupid[/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEQQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailytelegraph.com.au%2Fnews%2Fnsw%2Fhomegrown-terrorist-mohamed-elomar-pledges-to-bring-the-horror-here-australians-should-be-worried-he-says%2Fstory-fni0cx12-1227007825654&ei=kYroU_HiNYigogTGioD4Bg&usg=AFQjCNGQvIEeAyI4tMpHjoe39dZZ2N8Z-Q&sig2=h3_dlyH0lJN7W4Qumcuwvw"]https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEQQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailytelegraph.com.au%2Fnews%2Fnsw%2Fhomegrown-terrorist-mohamed-elomar-pledges-to-bring-the-horror-here-australians-should-be-worried-he-says%2Fstory-fni0cx12-1227007825654&ei=kYroU_HiNYigogTGioD4Bg&usg=AFQjCNGQvIEeAyI4tMpHjoe39dZZ2N8Z-Q&sig2=h3_dlyH0lJN7W4Qumcuwvw[/URL] Happy now?
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;45656342]You're right, I shouldn't imply you're A-OK with ISIS and I'm sorry for that implication but Australia's quite capable of providing humanitarian relief and I don't think you'd disagree with that. Still, while most international issues require more thought than "MURICA SMASH" this is one situation where military intervention is [i]thoroughly[/i] justified. Even if the Iraqi government benefits from this, it doesn't change the hard fact that ISIS needs to get fucking demolished. I'd elaborate further about this but I'm forced to use the on-screen keyboard to type so that ain't happening, sorry. [editline]11th August 2014[/editline] Also, does anyone else think that guy on the left looks like Billy Mays?[/QUOTE] Humanitarian Aid is important. Australia's already starting to send supplies that way, which is welcome. Hopefully the UN can expand its mission there, even into ISIL controlled territories and especially mount sinjar, but we'll see.
Wow shit, based on a video I saw of the YPG engaging ISIL elements they were fucking, and I mean [B]fucking wrecking them[/B] I guess now they're dug in they're putting up a fight. Maybe the YPG should conduct night time operations, it would seem that with NVGs they might have the upper hand. Also cool if this thing blows up maybe it'll increase my chances of being able to join.
From a financial basis I wonder what would be more effective dollar for dollar: Spending hundred of millions dropping expensive laser guided bombs on primitive religious extremists or supplying the Kurds with cheap Chinese made AKs
[QUOTE=download;45656520]From a financial basis I wonder what would be more effective dollar for dollar: Spending hundred of millions dropping expensive laser guided bombs on primitive religious extremists or supplying the Kurds with cheap Chinese made AKs[/QUOTE] Believe it or not most of our Munitions were built and purchased decades ago, in huge numbers that we really don't need. All those JDAMs RAAF/USAF use? Built in the late 90's and early 2000s by the hundreds of thousands. So we're not spending millions of dollars on this as much as we're just clearing out old munitions. [QUOTE=bravehat;45656371]What's even fucking dumber is letting a bunch of terrorists literally carve out their own country.[/QUOTE] Agreed, as much as I'm not interested for NATO/ANZUS to return to Iraq in any capacity, IS has become everyone's problem. We can either do something to stop this, or kick back and watch IS commit genocide and spread further under the basis that it's the Kurds problem and not ours. Extremist Ideologies like that are a cancer, we gotta cut that cancer out before it spreads further, eventually this will bring front line home. After they're done fucking up the middle east, who do you think they'll go after next? There are already people from every country who left to fight with ISIS and now wish to recruit others to and commit terror acts in their countries of Origin.
[QUOTE=Ta16;45656897]Believe it or not most of our Munitions we're built and purchased decades ago, in huge numbers that we really don't need. All those JDAMs RAAF/USAF use? Built in the late 90's and early 2000s by the hundreds of thousands. So where not spending millions of dollars on this as much as we're just clearing out old munitions. [/QUOTE] So drop them in combat instead of dropping them on some range in the desert as they reach their end of life? Makes sense.
Drop all that old shit on isis's head, effectively you will spring clean the munitions closet, and wipe out radicals at the same time
its the usa that escalated this problem and they hold the great burden of responsibility to clean it up. it was all so much more stable under the iron fist of saddam hussein. im advocating that australia does not need to send soldiers over.
[QUOTE=shackleford;45657017]its the usa that escalated this problem and they hold the great burden of responsibility to clean it up. it was all so much more stable under the iron fist of saddam hussein. im advocating that australia does not need to send soldiers over.[/QUOTE] Ah yes, the iron fist that murdered minorities and treated his own citizens like shit.
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