European leaders begin negotiations on new EU treaty to implement Eurozone fiscal union
89 replies, posted
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15997784[/url]
[quote=BBC News][b]German Chancellor Angela Merkel has said Europe is working towards setting up a "fiscal union", in a bid to resolve the eurozone's debt crisis.[/b]
She told the Bundestag that a new EU treaty was needed to set up such a union and impose budget discipline.
On Monday she is to meet French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who has also called for EU treaty changes.
EU leaders have been under pressure to do more to tackle the debt crisis, amid concern about the survival of the euro.
In her speech, Mrs Merkel promised "concrete steps towards a fiscal union" - in effect close integration of the tax-and-spend polices of individual eurozone countries, with Brussels imposing penalties on members that break the rules.
"We need budget discipline and an effective crisis management mechanism," she said. "So we need to change the treaties or create new treaties."
The German government has been pressing for changes to establish powers to veto national budgets in the eurozone that breach agreed rules.
"We have started a new phase in European integration," Mrs Merkel said.
But she made it clear that this was a long-term process that would take years.
On Thursday, Mr Sarkozy said a new European treaty governing relations between members was necessary to protect Europe's place in the world.
"We must confront those who doubt the stability of the euro and speculate on its break-up with total solidarity," Mr Sarkozy said.
Mr Sarkozy said the euro could not continue to exist unless eurozone economies pulled together, with France and Germany playing a key role to ensure "a zone of stability".
However, Mr Sarkozy rejected suggestions that national budgets could be approved and regulated in Brussels, and said France would not give up its sovereignty.
[b]No 'joint liability'[/b]
In her speech on Friday, Mrs Merkel also reiterated her opposition to the European Central Bank (ECB) issuing "eurobonds" backed by all eurozone members.
"A joint liability for others' debts is not acceptable," she said. "Eurobonds are not a rescue measure in this crisis."
She added: "National responsibility and European solidarity serve each other."
Many in Germany argue that eurobonds would penalise countries with a high credit rating, and reduce the incentive of indebted governments to reform.
Analysts also say Berlin is opposed to wholesale intervention by the ECB because of the country's experience of hyperinflation in the 1920s.
However, Germany's Sueddeutsche Zeitung daily said Mrs Merkel was willing to see the ECB step up its buying of bonds from indebted eurozone countries, as a bridging solution until budget controls took hold.
The BBC's Hugh Schofield in Paris says the outlines of a plan are beginning to take shape. There will be some form of overarching supervision of national budgets, as the Germans want - and in return, to satisfy the French, some loosening of the ECB's rules.
The problem, our correspondent adds, is that there is still no detail - it is unclear how budgetary discipline will be enforced, and whether countries that are not in the eurozone will be relegated to a European second zone.
During their meeting in Paris on Monday, Mr Sarkozy and Mrs Merkel are to agree on joint proposals to be put to a meeting of European leaders next week.
Many analysts see that summit as a crucial moment in efforts to tackle the debt crisis.
European stock markets rose early on Friday, as Europe's leaders called for closer economic integration as the way to resolve the debt crisis.
Meanwhile, Mr Sarkozy has been discussing the eurozone crisis with UK Prime Minister David Cameron in Paris.
Britain is concerned about the possible impact of a two-speed Europe, in which it could be left on the margins along with other countries outside the euro.[/quote]
Euro-sceptic rage in 3... 2... 1...
Though it's quite clear that splitting up Europe isn't going to help in time of crisis, we need to be more united, not add in more squabble.
Would federalization of the EU help any?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;33537752]Would federalization of the EU help any?[/QUOTE]
Probably would, a lot too. Problem is federalization is too much for most at this point, it's a huge step and most people wouldn't like it, nothing you can force overnight.
[QUOTE=acds;33537819]Probably would, a lot too. Problem is federalization is too much for most at this point, it's a huge step and most people wouldn't like it, nothing you can force overnight.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't EU be considered a superpower then?
Aah, politicans fucking people over more by saying they are saving a sinking ship. Glad to finally see the Euro crash and burn, let's just hope the EU as a whole goes down as well.
[QUOTE=The fox;33538472]Aah, politicans fucking people over more by saying they are saving a sinking ship. Glad to finally see the Euro crash and burn, let's just hope the EU as a whole goes down as well.[/QUOTE]
Yeah and so will your country if it does.
[editline]fffffffffffff[/editline]
Do the dumb raters really think that nothing will happen to Sweden? It depends more on the EU than on any other country or union. Oh well, looks like editing this removed them, but I'd like to know if they really think that.
Sweden has done well without the Euro, and does, infact, only suffer from being in the EU. But, nice try.
Moving power away from countries and into the hands of power and money grabbing asshats like the ones in Brussel is never, ever, a good thing. The Euro zone has also failed miserably, might as well let it die peacefully.
[QUOTE=Baldr 2.0;33538535]But before we do lets grab as much power as they can get away with. Would be great to stop pretending that we have sovereignty.[/QUOTE]
Of course! God forbid you have any actual power over the ones you vote into your own parliament or anything, heavens no. The EU is the new shit, yo, respect it or you're a moron, obviously.
Blindly follow and defend all their decisions, as well, even when it means infringing on human rights or interfering with shit they should have absolutely no say about. Or you're a moron.
[QUOTE=The fox;33538500]Sweden has done well without the Euro, and does, infact, only suffer from being in the EU. But, nice try.
Moving power away from countries and into the hands of power and money grabbing asshats like the ones in Brussel is never, ever, a good thing. The Euro zone has also failed miserably, might as well let it die peacefully.[/QUOTE]
So, you really think just because your country doesn't use the Euro it won't be affected?
Over 50% of your country's exports go to countries that are in the EU and that's just one of the things.
And no it doesn't suffer from being in the EU, how does it? By paying money to the EU to help developing countries in the east of Europe? Yeah, no, YOU try again.
[QUOTE=Firewarrior;33538591]So, you really think just because your country doesn't use the Euro it won't be affected?
Over 50% of your country's exports go to countries that are in the EU and that's just one of the things.
And no it doesn't suffer from being in the EU, how does it? By paying money to the EU to help developing countries in the east of Europe? Yeah, no, YOU try again.[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously defending a government body that has stripped millions of citizens of their human rights, invaded privacy and done a shit more wrong? Alright, thats cool.
Sweden also do export to countries that do not have Euro, and look at all the other countries without the Euro. Practically all of them rode out the financial crisis without much damage at all, while the Euro zone crashes and burns.
Sweden is one of the countries that pays the most to the EU, and recieves the least. Well, we do recieve the assfucking and all other BS the EU comes up with, nothing much besides that. Or does hurting our local market for close produced food products count as something good? Practically shutting them down? Or invading our privacy on the internet? Dictating laws and so on, in our own country, where they have no right to stick their dirty hands?
But like I said, keep on blindly defending the EU and Euro zone, clearly they are nothing but good. Unfortunately, though, it seems that no matter how much cold, hard facts you bring about how bad the EU is, people like yourself will always lick their asses like theres no tomorrow.
[QUOTE=The fox;33538472]Aah, politicans fucking people over more by saying they are saving a sinking ship. Glad to finally see the Euro crash and burn, let's just hope the EU as a whole goes down as well.[/QUOTE]
Yes let the EU fall so European countries can go back to it's millennium old history of always begin at war with each other because that's what the world needs right now.
[editline]2nd December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=The fox;33538633]Are you seriously defending a government body that has stripped millions of citizens of their human rights, invaded privacy and done a shit more wrong? Alright, thats cool.[/QUOTE]
[citation needed]
[QUOTE=Electrocuter;33538659]Yes let the EU fall so European countries can go back to it's millennium old history of always begin at war with each other because that's what the world needs right now.[/QUOTE]
"hurp a durp, without a oppressive government controlling europe, theyll instantly fall into war and chaos, hurr durr"
Are you serious? Like, I mean, really? You are aware that the brown shirts left Germany about 80 years ago, right? And that Stalin and the Soviet Union has long since collapsed? No? Oh. alright. Cause, you know, even if the EU were to collapse and burn in its own feces like it deserves, Europe won't instantly fall into WW3. Perhaps you should think longer than to your own nose before posting next time? It'll look far better than mad assumptions that war and chaos will errupt.
And even so, you are aware that almost the entire world is in a deep financial recess, right? There is absolutely no way in hell there will be another war for a long time, between European countries.
[QUOTE=The fox;33538633]Are you seriously defending a government body that has stripped millions of citizens of their human rights, invaded privacy and done a shit more wrong? Alright, thats cool.[/QUOTE]
It would've gone worse without, just take a look at some of the shit the UK politicians wanted to implement, but the EU stopped
[QUOTE=The fox;33538633]
Sweden also do export to countries that do not have Euro, and look at all the other countries without the Euro. Practically all of them rode out the financial crisis without much damage at all, while the Euro zone crashes and burns. [/QUOTE]
Bullshit or wishful thinking? you decide.
[QUOTE=The fox;33538633]
Sweden is one of the countries that pays the most to the EU, and recieves the least. Well, we do recieve the assfucking and all other BS the EU comes up with, nothing much besides that. Or does hurting our local market for close produced food products count as something good? Practically shutting them down? Or invading our privacy on the internet? Dictating laws and so on, in our own country, where they have no right to stick their dirty hands? [/QUOTE]
Denmark is over Sweden, so quit whining
[QUOTE=The fox;33538633]
But like I said, keep on blindly defending the EU and Euro zone, clearly they are nothing but good. Unfortunately, though, it seems that no matter how much cold, hard facts you bring about how bad the EU is, people like yourself will always lick their asses like theres no tomorrow.[/QUOTE]
I think we've found a denser material than a perfect diamond, can you guess what? [sp]Answer: your head[/sp]
Wow seems people are quick to forget what a "oppressive government" is when they are having it good.
[QUOTE=The fox;33538633][B]Are you seriously defending a government body that has stripped millions of citizens of their human rights, invaded privacy and done a shit more wrong? Alright, thats cool.[/B]
Sweden also do export to countries that do not have Euro, and look at all the other countries without the Euro. Practically all of them rode out the financial crisis without much damage at all, while the Euro zone crashes and burns.
Sweden is one of the countries that pays the most to the EU, and recieves the least. Well, we do recieve the assfucking and all other BS the EU comes up with, nothing much besides that. Or does hurting our local market for close produced food products count as something good? Practically shutting them down? Or invading our privacy on the internet? Dictating laws and so on, in our own country, where they have no right to stick their dirty hands?
But like I said, keep on blindly defending the EU and Euro zone, clearly they are nothing but good. Unfortunately, though, it seems that no matter how much cold, hard facts you bring about how bad the EU is, people like yourself will always lick their asses like theres no tomorrow.[/QUOTE]
Explain that please. Because now you're just pulling shit out of your ass.
[QUOTE=joost1120;33538727]Explain that please. Because now you're just pulling shit out of your ass.[/QUOTE]
First off, holocaust denying. Not saying the holocaust didn't happen, but the fact that you are not allowed to voice your opinion certainly seems like a intrusion into free speech.
Second off, IPRED, allows companies to subpoena your IP and get your name from it, to then bring you to court and sue your ass to hell and back.
Third off, Ignored Sweden when the government implanted FRA, catching all in and outgoing internet, email and telephone trafic.
I can go on and on, but like I said, people blindly defending the EU will hardly accept cold hard facts. And I have to take my dog out for a walk, so perhaps we can continue this fun once i'm back.
[QUOTE=The fox;33538633]
Sweden is one of the countries that pays the most to the EU, and recieves the least. Well, we do recieve the assfucking and all other BS the EU comes up with, nothing much besides that. Or does hurting our local market for close produced food products count as something good? Practically shutting them down? [B]Or invading our privacy on the internet?[/B] Dictating laws and so on, in our own country, where they have no right to stick their dirty hands? [/QUOTE]
Wow this again, didn't we go through this already sometime ago? If anything, it's the Swedish government that is raping web privacy at the moment and so far it's been the EU passing shit that helps us not get tracked every second we spend on the web.
Also like others have said, a lot of [citation needed].
[editline]2nd December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=The fox;33538760]
Second off, IPRED, allows companies to subpoena your IP and get your name from it, to then bring you to court and sue your ass to hell and back.
Third off, Ignored Sweden when the government implanted FRA, catching all in and outgoing internet, email and telephone trafic.
[/QUOTE]
I love this shit, first you scream and flail about the EU taking over Sweden, then you get pissed when the EU doesn't prohibit Sweden from passing a law?
Also about the IPRED and shit: [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15871961[/url]
Not going to go dig up the other articles about internet freedom, but saying that the EU is against internet freedom is just wrong.
[QUOTE=The fox;33538633]Are you seriously defending a government body that has stripped millions of citizens of their human rights, invaded privacy and done a shit more wrong? Alright, thats cool.
Sweden also do export to countries that do not have Euro, and look at all the other countries without the Euro. Practically all of them rode out the financial crisis without much damage at all, while the Euro zone crashes and burns.
Sweden pays the most to the EU, and recieves the least. Not just for helping out other countries, either.
But like I said, keep on blindly defending the EU and Euro zone, clearly they are nothing but good.[/QUOTE]
Your hatred for the EU is ridiculous, in every EU thread you post the same anti-EU stuff. It's your opinion and that's fine but you really seem to HATE it.
You are only focusing on the bad stuff the EU has done. If it invaded people's privacy so much, then why does it keep making new internet laws that are exactly the opposite? Are you just talking about laws that don't go through?
Yeah, great Sweden exports to countries that don't have the Euro! Wow! You seriously think other countries won't be affected if the EU goes down?
As I said, most of your exports go within the EU, without the EU there's no free trade within the, then, ex-EU countries. Yes, I'm sure that will help your exports with countries like the UK or Norway.
The Euro zone crashes and burns? Well, no. Take Germany, the economical powerhouse of the EU and europe, as an example, it's a country that is in the EU and one where the unemployment rate lowered and where the exports and economy grew like they haven't for 20 years. In the same time Sweden's unemployment rate went up by 2% and yes, I do know that your country's GDP grew, too.
Another thing that's wrong in your post is that Sweden pays the most. No it doesn't, by capita it's third after the Netherlands and Denmark, but as a whole it's far from paying the most.
But like I said, keep on blindly hating the EU and Euro zone.
[QUOTE=acds;33538782]Wow this again, didn't we go through this already sometime ago? If anything, it's the Swedish government that is raping web privacy at the moment and so far it's been the EU passing shit that helps us not get tracked every second we spend on the web.
Also like others have said, a lot of [citation needed].
[editline]2nd December 2011[/editline]
I love this shit, first you scream and flail about the EU taking over Sweden, then you get pissed when the EU doesn't prohibit Sweden from passing a law?
Also about the IPRED and shit: [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15871961[/url]
Not going to go dig up the other articles about internet freedom, but saying that the EU is against internet freedom is just wrong.[/QUOTE]
Because this is clearly respecting our internet privacy and not fucking EU citizens over?
[url]http://ec.europa.eu/trade/creating-opportunities/trade-topics/intellectual-property/anti-counterfeiting/[/url]
Or ACTA.
The EU has also forbidden our local farmers from selling their goods on our market, unless it passes through several other countries first, then gets sold back to us or some stupid shit like that. How, exactly, is that good?
Perhaps this is a good way to spend all the billions we send to the EU? [url]http://www.neurope.eu/blog/meps-vote-spend-2-million-homeopathy-animals[/url]
Thank god, someone finally thinks of the children! [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8816601/Children-to-be-banned-from-blowing-up-balloons-under-EU-safety-rules.html[/url]
Let's not forget our dear Lisbon treaty, either.
[QUOTE=Baldr 2.0;33538753]Hahahaha oh wow. It isn't only the EU that is keeping the peace in Europe.[/QUOTE]
Yes that was kind of a dumb reply, must try not to post under rage, the fox's ignorance on the EU really gets to me.
Still you can't deny that before the UN, NATO and EU, Europe was pretty much in constant war.
Any new EU treaty will almost definitely have to be passed as a referendum in Ireland because of our constitution, and there is [b]no way[/b] that it would, unless there were some very favourable clauses for Ireland included. The Irish public at the moment are very anti-EU.
Then again, Lisbon and Nice were both rejected by the people the first time, and the referenda were held again until they were passed.
[QUOTE=The fox;33538886]
The EU has also forbidden our local farmers from selling their goods on our market, unless it passes through several other countries first, then gets sold back to us or some stupid shit like that. How, exactly, is that good?[/QUOTE]
sorry you seem to be lacking a source for your ridiculous claim here
[QUOTE=Electrocuter;33538907]Yes that was kind of a dumb reply, must try not to post under rage, the fox's ignorance on the EU really gets to me.
[b]Still you can't deny that before the UN, NATO and EU, Europe was pretty much in constant war.[/b][/QUOTE]
And the rest of the world wasn't?
[QUOTE=Catdaemon;33538939]sorry you seem to be lacking a source for your ridiculous claim here[/QUOTE]
Here we have one, but it's in Swedish. In short, the European Union considers food crown in Sweden to be against the trade treaty, thusly, they aren't allowed to do it. Scrapping a project that cost millions.
[url]http://www.dn.se/ekonomi/miljosmarta-kostrad-stoppas[/url]
[QUOTE=The fox;33538961]Here we have one, but it's in Swedish. In short, the European Union considers food crown in Sweden to be against the trade treaty, thusly, they aren't allowed to do it. Scrapping a project worth millions.
[url]http://www.dn.se/ekonomi/miljosmarta-kostrad-stoppas[/url][/QUOTE]
That's the downside to not being a member. You have to play by EU rules, which you have no part in writing.
[QUOTE=The fox;33538886]...Or ACTA. ...[/quote]
I'm sorry, but no: [url]http://boingboing.net/2010/03/10/eu-parliament-votes.html[/url]
[QUOTE=Firewarrior;33538983]I'm sorry, but no: [url]http://boingboing.net/2010/03/10/eu-parliament-votes.html[/url][/QUOTE]
"hurr, ACTA got voted down, by the same people who came up with it in the first place; must mean they care about us!"
You can't be really be serious, The EU came up with it, that is the problem. If they care so much about us, why would they bother doing it in the first place?
[QUOTE=Caesar;33538975]That's the downside to not being a member. You have to play by EU rules, which you have no part in writing.[/QUOTE]
Not being a member? In what? The failing Euro zone? Cause last I checked, we pay billions of SEK to those asshats in Brussel.
And here is another one, of a EU wide internet filter being brought into action; [url]http://pcforalla.idg.se/2.1054/1.383103/eu-vill-infora-centralt-internetfilter-i-europa[/url]
Gee, I must be such a fool thinking the EU respects our privacy and so on.
"The police should be allowed to install RATS, Remote Access Tools, and monitor those believed to be criminals"
[url]http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.197049/eu-vill-ge-polisen-trojaner[/url]
[QUOTE=Caesar;33538918]Any new EU treaty will almost definitely have to be passed as a referendum in Ireland because of our constitution, and there is [b]no way[/b] that it would, unless there were some very favourable clauses for Ireland included. The Irish public at the moment are very anti-EU.
Then again, Lisbon and Nice were both rejected by the people the first time, and the referenda were held again until they were passed.[/QUOTE]
Isn't Ireland a bit financially fucked at the moment? So might fiscal union be good for them?
[QUOTE=The fox;33538886]Because this is clearly respecting our internet privacy and not fucking EU citizens over?
[url]http://ec.europa.eu/trade/creating-opportunities/trade-topics/intellectual-property/anti-counterfeiting/[/url]
Or ACTA.
[/QUOTE]
Except the EU was the one to hold it up for quite a while, and it got downsized as well before passing. You think Sweden wouldn't have accepted it? When it already bends over repeatedly to the MPAA and RIAA?
[QUOTE=The fox;33538886]
The EU has also forbidden our local farmers from selling their goods on our market, unless it passes through several other countries first, [B]then gets sold back to us or some stupid shit like that.[/B] How, exactly, is that good?[/QUOTE]
At least research the topic before criticizing it.
[QUOTE=The fox;33538886]
Perhaps this is a good way to spend all the billions we send to the EU? [url]http://www.neurope.eu/blog/meps-vote-spend-2-million-homeopathy-animals[/url][/QUOTE]
Oh no 2 million € what will we do. Ok, a minus for the EU, but a damn small one.
[QUOTE=The fox;33538886]
Thank god, someone finally thinks of the children! [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8816601/Children-to-be-banned-from-blowing-up-balloons-under-EU-safety-rules.html[/url]
Let's not forget our dear Lisbon treaty, either.[/QUOTE]
Banned children toys for safety reasons? That's it guys, shut down the EU and let all our economies go to hell.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.