• NSA may be responsible for industrial espionage
    25 replies, posted
[quote] Brazil's Globo television network reported on Sunday that the U.S. National Security Agency hacked into the computer networks of Petrobras and other companies, including Google Inc., citing documents leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden. The report came as Brazil is preparing to auction rights to tap some of the largest oil finds in the world in recent decades, deposits trapped under a salt layer off its Atlantic coast. State-run Petrobras, Brazil's largest company and a source of national pride, made the discoveries in recent years and will be a mandatory partner in developing all of the new deep-sea fields. The Globo report added tension to relations between Washington and Brasilia already strained by previous disclosures of NSA spying on internet communications in Brazil, including email messages and phone calls of Rousseff herself. An angry Rousseff has repeatedly demanded an explanation. At stake is a state visit by Rousseff to the White House on October 23 to meet President Barack Obama and discuss a possible $4 billion jet fighter deal, cooperation on oil and biofuels technology, as well as other commercial agreements. "If the facts reported by the press are confirmed, it will be evident that the motive for the spying attempts is not security or the war on terrorism but strategic economic interests," Rousseff said in a statement. [/quote] [url]http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/09/us-usa-security-snowden-petrobras-idUSBRE98817N20130909[/url]
No fucking shit? It's been evident from the get-go that the NSA is pretty much a rogue organization that the US government (congress, not just the president) is either turning a blind eye to, or fully know what they do and actually support it.
[QUOTE=Van-man;42137315]No fucking shit? It's been evident from the get-go that the NSA is pretty much a rogue organization that the US government (congress, not just the president) is either turning a blind eye to, or fully know what they do and actually support it.[/QUOTE] To be honest, I kinda hope they're rogue so that someone can use that as an excuse to put them down. Once they start biting the hand that feeds them, hopefully that'll be a sign that someone should stomp on them like a roach in a posh bistro, or at least lure them into a roach motel of some sort so they get stuck and starve. After all you don't wanna get roach guts on the carpet; it'll put people off their dinner.
[QUOTE=ironman17;42137351]To be honest, I kinda hope they're rogue so that someone can use that as an excuse to put them down. Once they start biting the hand that feeds them, hopefully that'll be a sign that someone should stomp on them like a roach in a posh bistro, or at least lure them into a roach motel of some sort so they get stuck and starve. After all you don't wanna get roach guts on the carpet; it'll put people off their dinner.[/QUOTE] Considering just how much of a raging boner this nation has had recently for privacy-violating bullshit and censorship out the ass, I sadly doubt that the NSA is rogue. Hell, they're probably being encouraged in all this shit by the government as we speak. If this kind of shit continues and they keep getting more powerful, I wouldn't be surprised to see them become a global agency.
[quote]the motive for the spying attempts is not security or the war on terrorism but strategic economic interests[/quote] I'd say welcome to the 21st century, but spying on economic interests to stay one step ahead of other nations is, like, 19th century at the latest. Ever heard of Stratfor? The agency responsible for all spying through electronic communications was spying on a massive state-run company with worldwide economic implications? What a surprise. Is anyone actually shocked by this? Anyone? Bueller? [QUOTE=Van-man;42137315]a rogue organization that the US government... fully know what they do and actually support it.[/QUOTE] They're a rogue organization run and supported by the government? What on earth does that mean?
[QUOTE=catbarf] They're a rogue organization run and supported by the government? What on earth does that mean?[/QUOTE] An organization that is making profit of their informational gathering or going beyond what the organization was suppose to do.
[QUOTE=Fangz;42137738]An organization that is making profit of their informational gathering or going beyond what the organization was suppose to do.[/QUOTE] Where are you reading that they're making a profit off their information-gathering? I'm not seeing it mentioned, implied, or even suggested anywhere in the article. As for going beyond what they were supposed to do, they were supposed to seek useful information about other countries through electronic means, to inform policymakers and protect the nation. This article describes them using electronic means to gather information on another country to inform policymakers. Brazil's about to put up the rights to drill an oil field for auction, which could have significant geopolitical ramifications, so the NSA gathered intelligence on it. This is what they do. This is their job. What do people think the NSA is supposed to do?
[QUOTE=catbarf;42137845]Where are you reading that they're making a profit off their information-gathering? I'm not seeing it mentioned anywhere in the article. As for going beyond what they were supposed to do, they were supposed to seek useful information about other countries through electronic means, to inform policymakers and protect the nation. This article describes them using electronic means to gather information on another country to inform policymakers. Brazil's about to put up the rights to drill an oil field for auction, which could have significant geopolitical ramifications, so the NSA gathered intelligence on it. This is what they do. This is their job. What do people think the NSA is supposed to do?[/QUOTE] There has been a lot of fluff going around that the NSA is collecting information on foreign business and such and either selling it or giving it to US based companies. NSA is supposed to do what the CIA does on the electronic front. Chiefly don't get fucking caught and don't do anything that would cause a multi-international incident in the first place.
Well damn I do hope that gets the world to get on my so called representatives and the government to stop this shit and make it clear that they will not do business if the NSA does shit like this. This is why we cannot let the NSA to crack encryption standards and put back doors in them, we the people have a possibility of paying the price for the shit that the companies and the NSA cohorts do for the all American dollar bill.
[QUOTE=Senscith;42137890]There has been a lot of fluff going around that the NSA is collecting information on foreign business and such and either selling it or giving it to US based companies.[/QUOTE] Has there been any evidence, or is it all speculation? [QUOTE=Senscith;42137890]Chiefly don't get fucking caught and don't do anything that would cause a multi-international incident in the first place.[/QUOTE] I don't get this at all. They didn't get caught in the act, they got outed by Snowden, so you can't exactly blame the organization for that. And as for not doing anything that would cause an incident, say what? Have you read anything about the CIA's history? While the CIA is off toppling regimes and funding militants, the NSA is gathering intelligence. Electronically. When it comes to international incidents the NSA's been pretty clean, compared to, say, the Bay of Pigs. [editline]10th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=rsa1988;42138588]and the government to stop this shit and make it clear that they will not do business if the NSA does shit like this.[/QUOTE] 'Shame on you for doing your job, thanks for the useful intelligence see you next Wednesday'
[QUOTE=Van-man;42137315]No fucking shit? It's been evident from the get-go that the NSA is pretty much a rogue organization that the US government (congress, not just the president) is either turning a blind eye to, or fully know what they do and actually support it.[/QUOTE]Actually, a few articles have been posted here before showing that Congress doesn't really know half of what the NSA does; when interviewed by them, they deliberately give as little information as possible while still technically answering the question. No doubt there's still plenty in Congress who support the NSA and what they're doing despite the leaks revealing the extent of the things they do.
i imagine this whole NSA spying on everyone(that map which showed countries who were more targeted put brazil on the same level as russia lol), is whats leading brazil to do shit like this [url]http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/world/2013/09/1335563-brazil-wants-national-antisnoop-email.shtml[/url] also not one bit surprised by US spying on corporations from other countries lol.
[QUOTE=catbarf;42137544]They're a rogue organization run and supported by the government? What on earth does that mean?[/QUOTE] Plausible deniability.
catbarf, I just want to know why do you always defend these organizations in all the threads they pop up in? Are they seriously not in the wrong at all in your eyes for anything that they do?
There's no "maybe" in this one.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42140102]catbarf, I just want to know why do you always defend these organizations in all the threads they pop up in? [/QUOTE] Because almost every single thread is sensationalist as hell and most people have no idea what is actually going on. This thread is the perfect example. Getting information on a rival government relevant to an upcoming political event with worldwide repercussions has been tagged 'industrial espionage'. We've gone from blasting the NSA for illegally spying on Americans via a kangaroo court to blasting the NSA for doing their job exactly as intended. And now we've moved into pure speculation, assuming that there was a profit motive without any evidence. If you actually read through my posts on the subject, I've already pointed out specific things they've done wrong, and there are a lot of issues I strongly disagree with the NSA's actions on. But here anything short of 'the NSA is Hitler incarnate and all information should be free' apparently makes me a government apologist.
That's because most people on the internet don't realize or understand Policy making/Policy Paradox. Its okay Catbarf.
This tends to happen when you give an organization with access to the best in surveillance technology a huge black budget
That's why the politicians and the corporations are always in bed with each other. Politicians can create or at least get information on rival companies then sell that information for a massive amount of personal wealth. The corporation obviously benefits greatly from having insider information and even the ability to influence events beyond their regular scope.
[QUOTE=catbarf;42140837]Because almost every single thread is sensationalist as hell and most people have no idea what is actually going on. This thread is the perfect example. Getting information on a rival government relevant to an upcoming political event with worldwide repercussions has been tagged 'industrial espionage'. We've gone from blasting the NSA for illegally spying on Americans via a kangaroo court to blasting the NSA for doing their job exactly as intended. And now we've moved into pure speculation, assuming that there was a profit motive without any evidence. If you actually read through my posts on the subject, I've already pointed out specific things they've done wrong, and there are a lot of issues I strongly disagree with the NSA's actions on. But here anything short of 'the NSA is Hitler incarnate and all information should be free' apparently makes me a government apologist.[/QUOTE] i think these people understand that the NSA is doing their job, they just don't agree with what that job entails
To the surprise of no one.
And again, my family will suffer high gas prices and rising energy costs because of what some dickhead I don't know or care about does. This is the first time I have said this, but fuck you Mr. President.
consider this without the NSA to fund cryptography and anti-cryptography research, computers, the internet, and thousands of mathmatical breakthroughs would not exist. the NSA's goal for 50 years was to spy on everyone's communications, breaking into all these companies is just practice at this point though. the problem is they exist without any clear enemy now, they don't have the USSR to get into and countries like Iran and North Korea are barely on their radar compared to others out there. they aren't rogue, they just have been targeted at the wrong people in the last decade of anti-muslim paranoia, we'll eventually find the right balance in internet freedoms and right now is the start of the conversation as more and more people are becoming informed about how much like sheep they have been in the last 20 years when it has come to digital communications. people like me and others here on facepunch have been slightly painfully aware that the goverment can get into everything, but now that the NSA is making daily headlines, people want to start the conversation finally.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42142263]i think these people [I]understand that the NSA is doing their job[/I], [B]they just don't agree with what that job entails[/B][/QUOTE] I love you. no[IMG]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/ratings/rainbow.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42142263]i think these people understand that the NSA is doing their job, they just don't agree with what that job entails[/QUOTE] That's fair enough. But a lot of people don't seem to actually know what the job entails, heck, if you look through previous threads on this very forum you can find people who had never even heard of the NSA before this scandal. Advances in computing and cryptology, counter-intelligence against Chinese government-funded hacker groups, and tracking down WMDs don't exactly make the evening news. If all you read was SH you'd think that 99% of the NSA's job is Orwellian domestic surveillance, and that really isn't the case. It's easy to say that spying between nations is universally a bad thing and shouldn't happen, but governments aren't always accountable to their people or to other nations and forced transparency is sometimes needed. Spies keep governments honest the same way whistleblowers do. Spying on governments (and government-run companies, as in this case) is a whole different issue from spying on private citizens and I wish people wouldn't treat the two as equivalent.
They're basically spying on Corporations, Corporations aren't people. Or are we using that preface?
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