• MPs warn over nuclear space bombs and solar flares
    43 replies, posted
[QUOTE][img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/img/1_0_1/cream/hi/news/news-blocks.gif[/img] [B]The government must take more seriously the threat of a nuclear weapon being exploded in space by a rogue state, MPs have warned.[/B] The Defence Select Committee said the resulting radiation pulse could disrupt power and water supplies, UK defence and satellite navigation systems. Its chairman, Tory MP James Arbuthnot, said an attack was "quite likely". The committee is urging ministers to invest in more "hardened" technology to cope with such an event. It looked at the threat to the UK's technological infrastructure from "electromagnetic pulse" (EMP) events in space, which could also include the eruption of solar flares. 'Quite likely' The committee found the government was "somewhat complacent" about the risks to technology, such as the destruction of computer chips, which could put defence systems out of action. Mr Arbuthnot told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The defence really is to build up the resilience of the electronic infrastructure by, over a period of time, replacing the incredibly delicate and vulnerable systems and chips and connections that we now have with the more hardened chips and connections and systems that are available at a not very expensive price, as you're doing your routine maintenance." On the possibility of a nuclear missile being fired into space and exploded, he said: "I personally believe that it's quite likely to happen. It's a comparatively easy way of using a small number of nuclear weapons to cause devastating damage. "The consequences if it did happen would be so devastating that we really ought to start protecting against it now, and our vulnerabilities are huge." Mr Arbuthnot added: "it would actually have a far more devastating effect to use a nuclear weapon in this way than to explode a bomb in or on a city. The reason for that is it would, over a much wider area, take out things like the National Grid, on which we all rely for almost everything, take out the water system, the sewage system. "And rapidly it would become very difficult to live in cities. I mean within a matter of a couple of days. "I wish the government would address this with rather more energy and cohesion and focus. I think sooner rather than later." Currently a severe "space weather" event would most likely be considered an "emergency" under the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 and require help from the armed forces. But the committee called for a clearer picture of who has responsibility in such an event. 'Global threat' The report insisted such threats should be considered by the National Security Council and civil contingency planners, with standards of protection developed for industries most in danger. Conventional defence alone could not protect against the threat, it said. In February last year a large solar flare erupted, disrupting flights over Pacific, but the bulk of the material emitted by the Sun passed by Earth. The committee said sudden fluctuations in the magnetic field caused by weather in space or nuclear attack, could wipe out electricity and GPS, used by the military and financial markets. It added: "Space weather is a global threat and may affect many regions and countries simultaneously." This, the report said, meant countries should work together, but also that there was no guaranteed safe place from where help could come. The report also urged the Ministry of Defence to plan for the loss or degradation of satellite-based communications systems in case they are damaged by severe space weather.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17117836[/url] Riiiiight...
[video=youtube;HQfzwFloVqA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQfzwFloVqA[/video]
I don't think he quite understands how much has to go into making the uranium reach critical mass
Solar flare preparations probably a good idea since we have them like every 100 years or something? Not that I have a clue what I'm talking about
[QUOTE=smurfy;34851955]Solar flare preparations probably a good idea since we have them like every 100 years or something? Not that I have a clue what I'm talking about[/QUOTE] We are constantly hit by solar flares every year, some strong some not so strong, the last mega strong one was in 18xx which only knocked out some of the most early electronics. Other than that the earths magnetic field and other things protect us from it, IIS and satilites not so much they can get fucked. Everyone gets carried away and assumes this will actually happen [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j8nuUVByrU[/media] Sadly this won't happen until the sun slowly becomes a red giant in the next few hundred million years or so
It's not an entirely stupid concern.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;34852007]the last mega strong one was in 18xx which only knocked out some of the most early electronics.[/QUOTE] That's what I meant, we kind of don't want that imho
[QUOTE=smurfy;34852196]That's what I meant, we kind of don't want that imho[/QUOTE] Most modern day electronics would be unfased or need to be rebooted, early electronics of the 18xx did not have much(if any) shielding that they have today. It is save to say most things will be fine after a reboot, if you are really that concered we have faraday cages
This could be a very real threat. We already know that Iran can put objects into space (they have a few satellites afaik). If they aquire a nuclear weapon, there really is nothing stopping them from strapping it to a rocket and blowing a good majority of satellites out of orbit.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;34852253]Most modern day electronics would be unfased or need to be rebooted, early electronics of the 18xx did not have much(if any) shielding that they have today. It is save to say most things will be fine after a reboot, if you are really that concered we have faraday cages[/QUOTE] I duno. Do we really have any better shielding for consumer electronics than we did in the 1800's? I mean not only are our electronics more complex and fragile, but I don't see how we shield them any better other than surge protectors and the like. But even then that only applies to outlet power, not an electromagnetic pulse.
[QUOTE=its shortie;34852323]This could be a very real threat. We already know that Iran can put objects into space (they have a few satellites afaik). If they aquire a nuclear weapon, there really is nothing stopping them from strapping it to a rocket and blowing a good majority of satellites out of orbit.[/QUOTE] Aside from, you know, common sense. Why the hell Iran would do such a thing is beyond me. It really doesn't want to fuck the West up on principle. We're bullying them, they're baring their fangs, and if we go to war we'll defeat them. They know it. We know it, and we're the bad guys here.
GUIS THIS WILL HAPPEN , IT HAPPEN IN ASSASSINS CREED SO ITLL HAPPEN IN RL (Holy shit, talking that retarded might of actually dropped my IQ)
[QUOTE=froztshock;34852506]I duno. Do we really have any better shielding for consumer electronics than we did in the 1800's? I mean not only are our electronics more complex and fragile, but I don't see how we shield them any better other than surge protectors and the like. But even then that only applies to outlet power, not an electromagnetic pulse.[/QUOTE] By the time the Solar flare would get through our atmosphere it would basically flip a few switches in the device, Car alarms, RF, blu tooth devices would probably go nuts for an hour or so. We have much better shielding in devices we actually understand electronic noise this is what an emp does to a .05c device [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yugfKsFcvhU[/media] You just need to restart the device
why is the world butthurt about nukes and piracy suddenly?
[QUOTE=MightyMax;34853285]why is the US butthurt about nukes and piracy suddenly?[/QUOTE] Try reading the article next time.
[QUOTE=MightyMax;34853285]why is the US butthurt about nukes and piracy suddenly?[/QUOTE] This has to do with shielding from solar flares, nukes are just one of the many things being taken into account as the word "nuke" is a head turner.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;34852253]Most modern day electronics would be unfased or need to be rebooted, early electronics of the 18xx did not have much(if any) shielding that they have today. It is save to say most things will be fine after a reboot, if you are really that concered we have faraday cages[/QUOTE] No offense, but you're clueless. I think you're confusing electromagnetic clusterfucks with power surges. An EMP or solar flare are very different, though they can [I]cause[/I] surges. [URL="http://www.agu.org/pubs/current/si/links/2002JA009504/2002JA009504.pdf"]A solar flare causes an associated magnetic storm[/URL] which gets wonky as [URL="http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/237/784/509.full.pdf"]the earth and its atmosphere are non-uniform conductors[/URL], and the ensuing bizarre voltage gradients across the atmosphere and solar ejecta can damage electronics by causing them to reach their breakdown voltages. Modern electronics are infinitely more vulnerable to damage from environmental factors than early electronics were. The drive for efficiency also means less effort required to reach the breakdown voltages necessary to frag a solid-state device, since there's a [URL="http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/FETs.cfm"]correlation between operational voltages and breakdown voltages.[/URL] Solid-state electronics are particularly vulnerable, thus that joke about the Russians having tube electronics in some of their air force- it's EMP protection. To top it off, most of these devices are not shielded in any meaningful capacity, since shielding from a real whopper would make the device entirely unusable. You can't just wrap something in a faraday cage and call it good. However, the primary concern isn't the effect a large storm would have on consumer electronics, it's the effect these magnetic storms have on the power grid, since it is "[URL="http://www.ursi.org/Proceedings/ProcGA02/papers/p0233.pdf"]well established that space weather storms can reduce the effective safe operating capacity of electric power transmission systems[/URL]", and this causes outages and [URL="http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=902238"]regular infrastructure damage[/URL] that [URL="http://www.spaceweather.gc.ca/tech/se-pow-eng.php"]can cost quite a bit[/URL], as well as affect the price of electricity. This can be predicted and protected against, but right now the western grids are not wholly up-to-date, leaving large amounts of them still vulnerable. [URL="http://thayer.dartmouth.edu/spacescience/wl/res/ae/biblio/molinski00.pdf"]It's a very real and legitimate issue, one most western governments haven't addressed properly.[/URL] The UK has extra cause for concern as parts of it lie within [URL="http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/1100/1/JASTP_gic_180700_paper.pdf"]particularly vulnerable areas.[/URL] The planet's also due for another whopper since the Carrington event, making the vulnerability somewhat unsettling. That's not to say consumer electronics aren't an issue, but less of one, since the potential damage for smaller events varies [URL="http://www.zurichna.com/internet/zna/SiteCollectionDocuments/en/media/SolarStorms.pdf"]based on your position relative to the electromagnetic event in question.[/URL] I mean, you're right in assuming Iranian nukes aren't a threat to your McDonalds toys, but it's a bit more serious of an issue than that (and, to be quite honest, some of these larger solar events [I]could[/I] frag your shit.)
[QUOTE=Rents;34853328]Try reading the article next time.[/QUOTE] Why am I getting dumbs on this? The OP never mentioned America or piracy.
If they're so terrified of man-made EMPs, why not invest in actual anti-nuke measures, like skywards pointing railguns or satellite based lasers? I've always wondered why nations insist on the MAD solution, rather than developing real defences.
The one thing I don't seem to get, is how, how can you just simply reboot a device, when all of it's components are in a tri-state? Can somebody clear this up?
Oi! Give this guys a break if he's stupid or what not, he's a Tory MP, after all. It's normal.
How come people think that blowing up a nuke in space will cause a Hollywood EMP when in reality most powerful electronics have at least moderate shielding. Hey, before you rate me dumb, I'm talking about Transformers and the grid, not your computer. I'm talking about the people who think it will be a MW2 mega apocalypse that shuts down electronics in 3/4ths the United States.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_nuclear_explosion[/url] It can damage electronics, but not in a huge way everyone thinks.
Its not just a EMP, it could send some amounts of radiation down through the atmosphere, which can potentially cover a good 20 to 30 miles and, if the wind's blowing the wrong way, hit major structures and kill many. I heard the Nazis in WW2 actually devised a plan to send a space bomber above a nation and drop radiation on them, but it wouldnt work so they instead used it as a propaganda tool.
-snip- shit long time ago
[QUOTE=smurfy;34851955]Solar flare preparations probably a good idea since we have them like every 100 years or something? Not that I have a clue what I'm talking about[/QUOTE] Solar flares happen pretty regularly but all we really need to worry about are coronal mass ejections, and I think one of them happened a few weeks ago, sometimes you'll just get unlucky and it'll knock some shit out, but a really big one could fuck us over seriously hard.
It certainly doesn't hurt to start implementing EMP-hardened chipsets and electronics and making them more readily available to consumers, even though the actual likelihood of either of those events happening is very small. If it's cost-effective, it's not a bad idea to mass-produce cellphones and personal GPS systems that are EMP hardened. The idea is sound and well-intentioned, even if the comically sensationalist threat of a nuclear weapon detonation in space is not.
Now the question is: Will personal computers be fucked when this happens, and how can we protect them?
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;34860674]Now the question is: Will personal computers be fucked when this happens, and how can we protect them?[/QUOTE] Yeah they will be effected pretty badly, you could protect em by building a few faraday cages into your house. Even then as far as I'm aware, each Faraday Cage will only work for a certain wavelength of radiation.
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;34860806]Yeah they will be effected pretty badly, you could protect em by building a few faraday cages into your house. Even then as far as I'm aware, each Faraday Cage will only work for a certain wavelength of radiation.[/QUOTE] faraday cages work for all forms of electromagnetic radiation wavelengths alter the penetration of radiation, though for example you can't see through someone using a visible light, but x-rays work pretty well [editline]25th February 2012[/editline] so for instance, if you encased your entire house in about a foot of lead, it would reduce gamma ray penetration to 0.02% of what it would otherwise be
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