Filipino Judge uses Qing/Ming maps to Disprove Chinese (PRC) claim to South China Sea.
45 replies, posted
[url]http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1529543/ancient-maps-debunk-beijings-sea-claims-says-philippine-judge?page=all[/url]
[QUOTE]A judge has laid out a case for the Philippines' claim over disputed islands, citing his analysis of old maps and calling Beijing's nine-dash line that extends into Southeast Asia a "gigantic historical fraud".
Senior Supreme Court Judge Antonio Carpio challenged Beijing's claim to 90 per cent of the 3.5 million sq km resource-rich South China Sea, part of which is also claimed by Manila. The Philippines has filed a case with the United Nations challenging Beijing's claims.
"During his recent visit to the US, General Fang Fenghui , chief of staff of the People's Liberation Army, said that … territory passed down by previous Chinese generations to the present one will not be forgotten or sacrificed," Carpio said.
Beijing has always backed its historical claims by saying it has "authoritative maps" but has not made such maps public.
Ten years ago, the Chinese embassy in Manila cited an inscription on the tomb of Hainan garrison general Quian Shicai of the Ming dynasty as evidence of China's claim over the Spratly islands. It stated: "Guangdong is adjacent to the grand South China Sea, and the territories beyond the sea all internally belong to the Ming state."
But Carpio showed five official maps from the Ming dynasty showing "Hainan as the southernmost territory of China".
The Chinese embassy has also said that in the Qing dynasty, China marked the Nansha Islands on authoritative maps and exercised administrative jurisdiction over the islands.
But Carpio presented three official maps from the Qing dynasty that he said showed Hainan as China's most southern territory.
[/QUOTE]
So whats your claim to it?
Anyone in the Qing/Ming dynasty could have made those maps, just like anyone could today. If they have conflicting maps from the time-period, maybe they should verify the sources on them. Either way, just because it is not China's doesn't mean it belongs to the Philippines.
[QUOTE=code_gs;45391831]Anyone in the Qing/Ming dynasty could have made those maps, just like anyone could today. If they have conflicting maps from the time-period, maybe they should verify the sources on them. Either way, just because it is not China's doesn't mean it belongs to the Philippines.[/QUOTE]
How many people back then were cartographers or even had the ability to make "legitimate" maps? You're right, the maps should be verified, and they still don't give the Philippines the land/sea rights, but it's not like professional maps were made by people in their free time or something.
[QUOTE=code_gs;45391831]Anyone in the Qing/Ming dynasty could have made those maps, just like anyone could today. If they have conflicting maps from the time-period, maybe they should verify the sources on them. Either way, just because it is not China's doesn't mean it belongs to the Philippines.[/QUOTE]
You're right it belongs to us vietnamese
The sea belongs to the Republic of China that belongs to the Peoples Republic of China.
[QUOTE=ElectricSquid;45391861]How many people back then were cartographers or even had the ability to make "legitimate" maps? You're right, the maps should be verified, and they still don't give the Philippines the land/sea rights, but it's not like professional maps were made by people in their free time or something.[/QUOTE]
Enough that they have conflicting maps apparently.
Britannia, rule the waves. So obviously it's ours duh
[QUOTE=Foxton;45391869]You're right it belongs to us vietnamese[/QUOTE]
It belongs to Brunei
[QUOTE=RockmanYoshi;45392288]It belongs to Brunei[/QUOTE]
It belongs to the Nords.
It belongs to Poseidon.
i think its fairly obvious that even if they HAD a historical claim on that area, international law trumps ancient history when it comes to this, everybody understands this except china
It belongs in a museum.
Can we have Hong Kong back china.
Please.
Make it a wildlife reserve if people are so conflicted about it. Leave it to mother nature.
I thought that said the judge used Bing Maps to disprove the claim. I was confused.
[QUOTE=Complifused;45392138]Britannia, rule the waves. So obviously it's ours duh[/QUOTE]
America rules the waves now.
I'm not sure Mongolia would be happy with using Qing maps as precedents.
It belongs to Cthuhlu.
[QUOTE=Thomo_UK;45392627]Can we have Hong Kong back china.
Please.[/QUOTE]
90% of Hong Kong wants to rejoin the UK. With good reason.
Just give it to Tajikistan.
[sp]Tajikistan is a landlocked country[/sp]
Give to to Russia so they can protect the ethnic Russian minority.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;45393275]90% of Hong Kong wants to rejoin the UK. With good reason.[/QUOTE]
I assume you're referring to the online poll which I don't know is any good indicator of the the population wants. I was there during the 1st July protests this year, many of them voiced the lack of freedom under the PRC rule and other problems. I don't know how many wants to rejoin the UK since they lacked some basic rights which they are still after right now, but I'm quite certain that the number of people that want to be independent from both China and UK is larger than the people that wants to rejoin.
Polls from 2007 shows 25% wants to become independent.
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_independence_movement[/URL]
[QUOTE=draugur;45393469]Just give it to Tajikistan.
[sp]Tajikistan is a landlocked country[/sp][/QUOTE]
Better yet, Turkmenistan
They need more oil money to build Turkmenbashi statues
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;45393275]90% of Hong Kong wants to rejoin the UK. With good reason.[/QUOTE]
That's just the opium deficiency talking.
Those islands are historically a part of the ancient Facepunchian empire.
None of these islands belong to the People' Republic of China and the formation of the People's Republic of China is a historical tragedy. The People's Republic of China was born in 1949 when they outed the Republic of China from mainland China. And for your information, the Republic of China still exist in the form of Taiwan. Who, unlike the People Republic of China, the Republic of China never caused a famine, never destroyed their own heritage, never run over their own citizens with tanks, and they sure as hell never made any outrageous territorial claims. They, unlike the People's Republic, is a democratic country. Taiwan is not part of the People's Republic of China. If anything, Philippines should be having territorial dispute with the Republic of China, not this rogue state called the People' Republic of China.
Just to shows you how ridiculous the People's Republic of China's claims were, here is their claim...
[IMG]http://kelsocartography.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/screen-shot-2010-03-14-at-44250-pm.png[/IMG]
Like someone above said about the Mongol Empire, using historic maps as basis for your contemporary territorial claims cuts both ways. For example, the ancient Goguryeo Empire in ancient Korea actually have territories that extend into modern day Manchuria and Russia.
[IMG]http://forthenextgeneration.com/images/bal/map01.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Person234;45394199]long[/QUOTE]
To be fair though the ROC still thinks Gorno-Badakhstan(Tajikistan), Mongolia, Tuva, Arunachal Pradesh and many other areas are theirs.
[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.svg/754px-ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.svg.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=RockmanYoshi;45397549]To be fair though the ROC still thinks Gorno-Badakhstan(Tajikistan), Mongolia, Tuva, Arunachal Pradesh and many other areas are theirs.
[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.svg/754px-ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.svg.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I have a Chinese Steam user on my friends list, and I'm considering removing him because he's a NEET who basically is unable to talk to me about anything except how he's going to start a revolution and become the leader of China (yet he never preogresses beyond idle talk lol), the glories of the ancient times and the tons of killing of bandits/criminals/other peoples the Chinese empire accomplished, and tons of bigoted and racist shit about everyone who isn't Chinese. He's also beta as fuck and has severe national-persecution tendencies sometimes, feeling like the West is all ganging up on poor little defenseless China. He said this, unprompted, two days ago:
[QUOTE]chinabro: our policy you know what
chinabro: is everyland belongs to china
chinabro: and chinese
chinabro: that chinese culture is superior
chinabro: the chinese people is superior
chinabro: thats what i learned from history books
chinabro: when i at school
chinabro: what do you think of that?[/QUOTE]
(obviously I've anonymized his name)
Not only does the PRC believe it's entitled to lands well beyond its internationally-recognized borders, it's made sure its people believe it, too. I imagine ROC's no different.
[QUOTE=Person234;45394199]None of these islands belong to the People' Republic of China and the formation of the People's Republic of China is a historical tragedy. The People's Republic of China was born in 1949 when they outed the Republic of China from mainland China. And for your information, the Republic of China still exist in the form of Taiwan. Who, unlike the People Republic of China, the Republic of China never caused a famine, never destroyed their own heritage, never run over their own citizens with tanks, and they sure as hell never made any outrageous territorial claims. They, unlike the People's Republic, is a democratic country.[/QUOTE]
To be fair. The ROC was basically a dictatorship supported by the US that focused on the coastal cities that only really became democratic in the 80s.
Its not like the peasants of China had better reason to support the communists over the nationalists or anything... <
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;45399243]I have a Chinese Steam user on my friends list, and I'm considering removing him because he's a NEET who basically is unable to talk to me about anything except how he's going to start a revolution and become the leader of China (yet he never preogresses beyond idle talk lol), the glories of the ancient times and the tons of killing of bandits/criminals/other peoples the Chinese empire accomplished, and tons of bigoted and racist shit about everyone who isn't Chinese. He's also beta as fuck and has severe national-persecution tendencies sometimes, feeling like the West is all ganging up on poor little defenseless China. He said this, unprompted, two days ago:
(obviously I've anonymized his name)
Not only does the PRC believe it's entitled to lands well beyond its internationally-recognized borders, it's made sure its people believe it, too. I imagine ROC's no different.[/QUOTE]
He would be a good Ming/Qing emperor.
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