BREAKING: Catalonia votes to break away from Spain in illegal referendum
45 replies, posted
[quote]With 95.9 percent of votes counted, 80.78 percent of participants had voted in favor of independence from Spain by voting ‘yes-yes’ to the two-part question. Another 10 percent voted in favor of Catalonia becoming a country but chose ‘No’ when asked whether it should be independent from Spain. Only 4.53 percent voted against the region becoming a state.
The official figures showed that just over 2.2 million people participated in the referendum, putting the turnout at just 41 percent of those eligible to vote. All residents – including foreign citizens and teenagers aged 16 and 17 – were able to participate in the non-binding referendum, which took place between 9 a.m. and 8 p.m.[/quote]
[url]http://www.bnowire.com/2014/11/09/catalonia-votes-to-break-away-from-spain-in-illegal-referendum/[/url]
Looks like Spain is destined to never occupy the most of the peninsula, all these years and they still can't stay together.
I wonder what actions Catalonia will take since Madrid denies them everything.
So will Spain deploy its military to prevent Catalonia from breaking away?
I wonder how the rest of NATO and the EU will react to this?
When will Russia invade?
[QUOTE=Bbarnes005;46450944]So will Spain deploy its military to prevent Catalonia from breaking away?
I wonder how the rest of NATO and the EU will react to this?[/QUOTE]
I don't think Spain would be as dumb to do something so brash as that, it would probably make the Catalonians more defiant which clearly the Spanish government doesn't want anymore of.
I don't understand the Catalonians geez.
Guys, I know you were linked together by a fucking royal marriage, but come on, it's been 400 years, and you share a history together.
But oh well, so much for self-determination. IF they want to be free, so it be.
EDIT: And what's worse, if you ask someone from Catalonia if he is Spanish, he answers back angrily "No I'm Catalonian"
It's not even a legit referendum, just a mock symbolic one.
It sounds dodgy to break away if the referendum was "illegal", but if Catalonia could end up better off without Spain and doesn't need to be governed by Madrid, then more power to them if they can keep it up.
Also, concerning Spain never being able to control most of the peninsula as Gwoodman said, what is the recent history of the Iberian Peninsula? I know Portugal was once incorporated into Spain for about 80 years in the 16th to 17th centuries, and for many centuries the vast majority of the peninsula was a Muslim territory (called Al-Andalus, possibly due to the Iberian Peninsula previously being controlled by the old Vandal tribes), but other than that I'm not familiar with current events in the peninsula.
[QUOTE=Novangel;46451048]It's not even a legit referendum, just a mock symbolic one.[/QUOTE]
Could be ratified by Eu making it one.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;46450993]I don't understand the Catalonians geez.
Guys, I know you were linked together by a fucking royal marriage, but come on, it's been 400 years, and you share a history together.
But oh well, so much for self-determination. IF they want to be free, so it be.
EDIT: And what's worse, if you ask someone from Catalonia if he is Spanish, he answers back angrily "No I'm Catalonian"[/QUOTE]
catalonia is different enough and independent enough from spain that it should be on its own
I wonder how Andorra would be influenced by an independent Catalonia.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;46451090]catalonia is different enough and independent enough from spain that it should be on its own[/QUOTE]
Now wait there
"From Spain"
What is Spain? Is there a "national" spanish culture? Because as I see, if you go to Galicia, things will 100% different than from, say, Asturias.
With the same logic, Venetians should split from Italy because they are totally different from Sicilians. Hell, any Italian FPer will tell you that they speak in different dialects and are almost different languages.
[QUOTE]Also, concerning Spain never being able to control most of the peninsula as Gwoodman said, what is the recent history of the Iberian Peninsula? I know Portugal was once incorporated into Spain for about 80 years in the 16th to 17th centuries, and for many centuries the vast majority of the peninsula was a Muslim territory (called Al-Andalus, possibly due to the Iberian Peninsula previously being controlled by the old Vandal tribes), but other than that I'm not familiar with current events in the peninsula.
[/QUOTE]
The Muslims, or Moros, conquered almost all of Spain during the 8th or 9th century and if I'm not mistaken, they were defeated, or, more precisely, stopped by the French at the battle of Poitiers.
The funny part, is that they were able to get into the Peninsula thanks to some Spanish (Can't remember the Kindgom, but it was from Spain) prick that wanted more power. Yeah, sounds a lot like Game of Thrones.
The remaining Spanish kingdoms retreated to the northern mountains and they were 3.
2 joined and formed what would be later known as Castilla and the other one Remained (Aragon).
Fast Forward, they slowly re-conquer (La REconquista) the Peninsula and in the 1400's Castille and Aragon have a royal marriage and join together.
During a time the Spanish Crown was linked to the Portuguese Crown, of course, this is after the Catholic Kings (Isabel de Castilla and Fernando de Aragno), but, I dont remembe, the Spanish part of the marriage died or something like that and the personal union broke up. Yeah, sounds Paradox-ish, but it was really like that.
Oh, and Gibraltar. It was taken by the British as a guarantee during the...Seven Years War...or the Austrian War of Succession..was it? I know it was in the 18th century. But not exactly during which war...
[QUOTE]I wonder how Andorra would be influenced by an independent Catalonia.
[/QUOTE]
Andorra is a remain of the medieval era. It doesn't anwer to Spain only...it also answers to France. Yes, as you have read it.
i don't think it really matters how different they are from the rest of the country. the only thing that matters is whether catalans want an independent nation or not.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;46451165]Now wait there
"From Spain"
What is Spain? Is there a "national" spanish culture? Because as I see, if you go to Galicia, things will 100% different than from, say, Asturias.
With the same logic, Venetians should split from Italy because they are totally different from Sicilians. Hell, any Italian FPer will tell you that they speak in different dialects and are almost different languages.
The Muslims, or Moros, conquered almost all of Spain during the 8th or 9th century and if I'm not mistaken, they were defeated, or, more precisely, stopped by the French at the battle of Poitiers.
The funny part, is that they were able to get into the Peninsula thanks to some Spanish (Can't remember the Kindgom, but it was from Spain) prick that wanted more power. Yeah, sounds a lot like Game of Thrones.
The remaining Spanish kingdoms retreated to the northern mountains and they were 3.
2 joined and formed what would be later known as Castilla and the other one Remained (Aragon).
Fast Forward, they slowly re-conquer (La REconquista) the Peninsula and in the 1400's Castille and Aragon have a royal marriage and join together.
During a time the Spanish Crown was linked to the Portuguese Crown, of course, this is after the Catholic Kings (Isabel de Castilla and Fernando de Aragno), but, I dont remembe, the Spanish part of the marriage died or something like that and the personal union broke up. Yeah, sounds Paradox-ish, but it was really like that.
Oh, and Gibraltar. It was taken by the British as a guarantee during the...Seven Years War...or the Austrian War of Succession..was it? I know it was in the 18th century. But not exactly during which war...
Andorra is a remain of the medieval era. It doesn't anwer to Spain only...it also answers to France. Yes, as you have read it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah the Spanish also fucked themselves over by chasing out the Moors and the other people who knew how to handle money because they were "heretics", which is why the Spanish Empire eventually fell apart. But that isn't related.
It will be interesting to see how this turns out in the end.
Well even if it was a legit referendum, only around 32% of eligible voters wanted Catalonia to become a state independent from Spain (80% support of 40% turnout), so no I don't think it should be affirmed in the yes-yes. Maybe the other 60% of voters are complacent with the status quo. You can't know these things though with such low turnout.
[QUOTE]Yeah the Spanish also fucked themselves over by chasing out the Moors and the other people who knew how to handle money, which is why the Spanish Empire didn't last for very long after defeat of the Spanish Armada.
[/QUOTE]
Well, the Jews knew how to handle the money...because they were the only ones...errr...socially (?) allowed to do so. But it was...like a double trap.
Christians weren't allowed to profit on loanings, it was seen as something repulsive. So, socially, who were the other ones allowed? The jews. Which in turn reinforced the popular view about them being repulsive.
Look, in the English territories, around 1000-1100, the King wasn't the richest man around...it was a Jew...and after he died and the Crown took over his belongings, they had to create, what would be today a department, to discover how much he had.
And apart from being utterly defeated and left without a navy, the Spanish weren't the brightest ones around regarding change and development. Even though the Spanish tercio owned half Europe during 100 years, it was brought to its knees by Maurice of Nassau. From that point on, Spain was relegated to a secondary position.
[QUOTE=Antdawg;46451251]Well even if it was a legit referendum, only around 32% of eligible voters wanted Catalonia to become a state independent from Spain (80% support of 40% turnout), so no I don't think it should be affirmed in the yes-yes. Maybe the other 60% of voters are complacent with the status quo. You can't know these things though with such low turnout.[/QUOTE]
have you seen US election turnouts....
[QUOTE=Code3Response;46451273]have you seen US election turnouts....[/QUOTE]
?
[QUOTE=Code3Response;46451273]have you seen US election turnouts....[/QUOTE]
It is a little different. This being such an important election for the citizens of Catalonia is hard to compare to the election we had which a lot of people wrote off as having no importance because it wasn't a presidential election.
Spain will likely deny the vote if it wins, there will be some protests and some disturbance but then the population will go passive again. Perhaps it'll come back in a few years again but by no means will this be some sort of American revolution.
[QUOTE=Vasili;46451310]Spain will likely deny the vote if it wins, there will be some protests and some disturbance but then the population will go passive again. Perhaps it'll come back in a few years again but by no means will this be some sort of American revolution.[/QUOTE]
I don't know. 88% is pretty huge man. Say, 51%...meh, ok. But that's a fucking load of people who have voted yes.
And it wasn't like this happened from one day to another. Remember that human chain?
The king will not allow this.
Pretty sure that the Spanish Royal Family doesn't have a say in anything anymore, so it doesn't really if he won't allow it.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;46451328]I don't know. 88% is pretty huge man. Say, 51%...meh, ok. But that's a fucking load of people who have voted yes.
And it wasn't like this happened from one day to another. Remember that human chain?[/QUOTE]
~32% of eligible voters isn't 'a fucking load of people who have voted yes'.
[QUOTE=Antdawg;46451463]~32% of eligible voters isn't 'a fucking load of people who have voted yes'.[/QUOTE]
Ah sorry, I didn't repair on that aspect.
[QUOTE]The king will not allow this.
[/QUOTE]
Send the navy.
pretty sure europe and by extension the EU can't legitimize this vote so nothing really is going to happen, best case, they get the attention from the EU and UN and mediation, worst case, spain goes crazy and cracks down with police
Take it from an insomniac Spaniard: There is a lot of misinformation going on, don't form opinions based on what you read because this whole thing will look completely different depending on where you read about it.
And yes, that happens with any political event, but trust me; in this one the media is trying REALLY hard to write things based on either side's agenda.
I'm not from Catalonia but as a pretty leftist guy all I have to say is: Yes, Catalonia means a lot to Spain economically but if the government allows this kind of things they'll look way weaker than they already do, which wouldn't be bad because they're destroying the people and families in this country.
Also, while Catalonians have the right to vote they don't really have the RIGHT to decide to just leave and break away, because Spain has invested a lot of money in creating industry, fucking over other regions, in part to keep the Catalonians happy.
If they want to leave they should keep paying and returning the investment, be it with favorable trades or whatever, but they're not the victim here, the rest of the regions are.
Also, this whole vote doesn't have access to the census so there might be people that are voting now that couldn't vote on the official one (People younger than 18, inmigrants, people from other regions that live temorally, etc).
And of course the 'Yes/Yes' won, the people who are against it haven't bothered to vote, because the movement is to promote independence not to decide on anything, so they don't want to give it more attention.
If an official vote would be approved then I think the 'Yes/No' would win, or the 'No'. *
*The question is: "Do you want catalonia to be an state? If so, do you want that state to be independent?"
I am no expert but I've been following the whole movement, so if someone is interested you can ask away and I'll explain and link to sources, I am really sad to see a lot of misinformed opinions based on media manipulation.
So are they going to declare independence anyways now? Can't imagine that they care about the Spanish government not allowing it
This always boils down to the simplest arguments. Firstly, does a group of people, ethnic or geographic, have the right to self determination, as long as everything is done fairly? Secondly, is it better to decentralise regions rather than centralise them? Lastly, if a group wants to break away, should they be allowed to, regardless of the consequences to themselves or others?
I-its not like I want you here e-either
[editline]10th November 2014[/editline]
Jokes aside I dont think Catalonia would work as an indepent state, but I dont care if they separate. Media here is always cluttered with the same guy saying the same things over and over about it.
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