Seattle Mayor calls for removal of Confederate monument, Lenin statue - Polidicks

[quote]Seattle Mayor Ed Murray has called for both the monument to Confederate soldiers at Capitol Hill’s Lake View Cemetery and a statue of Vladimir Lenin in Fremont to be taken down, saying they represent “historic injustices” and are symbols of hate, racism and violence. Murray’s statement, released Thursday, is much stronger than his previous response, where he expressed concerns about the Confederate monument to the operator of the cemetery. Lake View Cemetery closed Wednesday after receiving threats related to the monument. On Thursday, Lake View Cemetery said it would remain closed until Monday morning, “due to the controversy over Confederate memorials.” The monument, erected in 1926 by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, and the Lenin statue are both on private property. Still, Murray said, he believes they should be removed. “Not only do these kinds of symbols represent historic injustices, their existence causes pain among those who themselves or whose family members have been impacted by these atrocities,” Murray said in the statement. “We should remove all these symbols, no matter what political affiliation may have been assigned to them in the decades since they were erected. This includes both Confederate memorials and statues idolizing the founder of the authoritarian Soviet regime.”[/quote] [url]http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/seattle-mayor-murray-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-monument-lenin-statue/[/url]

I don't think it should be taken down, the last time people argued that the statue in Charlottesville didn't have any historical value, but I think a Stalin statue, no matter how controversial, has historic value. Hell, we even have this in Chemnitz: [IMG_thumb]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Karl_Marx_memorial.jpg[/IMG_thumb] I'm not going to talk about the confederate monument though, since I think everything has already been said in the last thread.

...why is there a Lenin statue in Seattle?

[QUOTE=Flicky;52587624]...why is there a Lenin statue in Seattle?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]The Statue of Lenin in Seattle is a 16 ft (4.9 m) bronze sculpture of Communist revolutionary Vladimir Lenin, completed in 1988 in Czechoslovakia, and displayed there until it was taken down shortly before the Revolutions of 1989. It was bought by an American in 1993, who moved it to Washington in the US. Since 1995 it has been up for sale and on display in an outdoor retail property in the Fremont neighborhood of Seattle.[/QUOTE] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle[/url]

They're on private property, so not sure what power there is to take them down. I find confederate statues a lot more personal to the US than a Lenin one. It's quite a nice looking statue tho

the irony of not being able to remove a lenin statue because it's on private property

[QUOTE=Flicky;52587624]...why is there a Lenin statue in Seattle?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]An American veteran teaching in Poprad (Slovakia), Lewis Carpenter found the sculpture lying face down after it was toppled in the 1989 Revolution. He recognized Venkov’s skill and craftsmanship and the boldness of his portrayal, and was determined that the statue be preserved. Carpenter mortgaged his house to acquire the sculpture and brought it back to Issaquah. He died in 1994. The statue is now owned by his family. It is sited here temporarily for viewing and sale, both to fulfill Carpenter’s dream, that the work be seen and enjoyed and eventually find a permanent home and to serve as a reminder of an important historical period.[/QUOTE] [url]https://fremont.com/about/lenin/[/url]

I think there's a difference between statues idolizing the 'heroes' of the Confederacy, and a monument to Confederate soldiers. Lots of kids died and it shouldn't be a bad thing to remember them. [img]https://static.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/afeba6be-81ee-11e7-ab9c-b7d9b3802423-780x534.jpg[/img]

[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/15/22102331_1223937ef8.jpg?v=0[/img] They can't remove the Lenin statue, a Pride Week tradition would be lost!

[QUOTE=TurtleeyFP;52587658]I think there's a difference between statues idolizing the 'heroes' of the Confederacy, and a monument to Confederate soldiers. Lots of kids died and it shouldn't be a bad thing to remember them. [img]https://static.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/afeba6be-81ee-11e7-ab9c-b7d9b3802423-780x534.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] its all about context though. nobodys saying we should take down the confederate markers in Gettysburg but the statues and stuff removed as of late were all 1920s dedications to the confederacy not the soldiers who were often drafted against their will same with the lenin statue, in this case its a work of art not a representation of the USSR

I went and visited yesterday. Some protesters had painted his hands red earlier in the morning. [t]http://i.imgur.com/Cnwlyx3.jpg[/t] btw Ed Murray is a joke.

One of my conservative friends kept bringing up that damn Lenin statue like it had some importance or meant anything to anybody (other than artistic value), guess now I can tell him he can quit crying over some weird art nerd's pet project.

[QUOTE=shadow_oap;52587638]They're on private property, so not sure what power there is to take them down. I find confederate statues a lot more personal to the US than a Lenin one. It's quite a nice looking statue tho[/QUOTE] Sadly it often depends on what side of the political spectrum people are on, my highly conservative parents are pissed both about the removal of the confederate statues and the existence of the Lenin one in Seattle. Anecdotal as this may be, from what I've seen, this is reflective of a large sentiment, and applies to both sides of the political aisle.

If it's on private property, Confederate or communist, I don't give a fuck. It's their right to display it. But if it's on publicly-owned property, take it down - same goes for the Ten Commandments in front of state buildings, Confederate flags on state capitols, confederate statues on state school grounds - take it down. So long as it's on private property, no matter what ideology, I could care less.

[QUOTE=TurtleeyFP;52587658]I think there's a difference between statues idolizing the 'heroes' of the Confederacy, and a monument to Confederate soldiers. Lots of kids died and it shouldn't be a bad thing to remember them. [img]https://static.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/afeba6be-81ee-11e7-ab9c-b7d9b3802423-780x534.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] Now, what if it's a confederate memorial that happens to have a bust or statue of a confederate general on top of it?

Wait, that Lenin statue is for sale, right? Does anyone know how much it is? I need a lawn decoration that can draw as much attention as possible in the shortest amount of time.

[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;52589516]Wait, that Lenin statue is for sale, right? Does anyone know how much it is? I need a lawn decoration that can draw as much attention as possible in the shortest amount of time.[/QUOTE] Only $250,000.

[QUOTE=nulls;52589559]Only $250,000.[/QUOTE] The irony of a lenin statue costing 250,000 dollars

[QUOTE=Gorgus;52587615]I don't think it should be taken down, the last time people argued that the statue in Charlottesville didn't have any historical value, but I think a Stalin statue, no matter how controversial, has historic value. Hell, we even have this in Chemnitz: [IMG_thumb]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Karl_Marx_memorial.jpg[/IMG_thumb] I'm not going to talk about the confederate monument though, since I think everything has already been said in the last thread.[/QUOTE] In relation to Communist statues in the former GDR their removal would be cultural and historic destruction. Erasing a part of German history even if it wasn't positive would be a blow to both tourism and history.

[QUOTE=nulls;52587901]I went and visited yesterday. Some protesters had painted his hands red earlier in the morning. [t]http://i.imgur.com/Cnwlyx3.jpg[/t] btw Ed Murray is a joke.[/QUOTE] Not gonna lie, usually i hate defacing shit, but that's pretty great.

[QUOTE=Mabus;52589741]In relation to Communist statues in the former GDR their removal would be cultural and historic destruction. Erasing a part of German history even if it wasn't positive would be a blow to both tourism and history.[/QUOTE] How is any of the reasons you listed here not applicable to confederate statues?

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52590349]How is any of the reasons you listed here not applicable to confederate statues?[/QUOTE] It is, I don't like whats going on with the removal of the statues it sends a dangerous precedent.

[QUOTE=nulls;52589559]Only $250,000.[/QUOTE] Worth it

I reckon the guy's probably not been able to sell it because no one rich enough to afford it would want it. :v:

[QUOTE=Mabus;52589741]In relation to Communist statues in the former GDR their removal would be cultural and historic destruction. Erasing a part of German history even if it wasn't positive would be a blow to both tourism and history.[/QUOTE] What part of history would be removed with the statues? There are still countless of museums and books and documentaries etc. about the stuff.

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;52589835]Not gonna lie, usually i hate defacing shit, but that's pretty great.[/QUOTE] The good thing about these bronze statues is you can paint them up however you like and it comes off easily without damaging the statue. Painting them is a non-destructive form of protest. It isn't like they reshaped his face with a jackhammer. But it's still pretty asinine to paint someone else's statue on private property. Especially when it's a statue of a communist leader which is obviously being offered as a historic article or trophy and not as a celebration of communism. [QUOTE=gokiyono;52593486]What part of history would be removed with the statues? There are still countless of museums and books and documentaries etc. about the stuff.[/QUOTE] Anyone who can afford this one would save a lot of money by importing one from Europe, where they're often literally free and they'd only have to pay to ship the thing. That would still be in the order of several tens of thousands of dollars, but not $250,000, and anyone who pays the 250 grand for this statue will still have to shell out another few thousand to ship it to wherever they're going to display it in the US, so you might as well cut out the very expensive middleman. Plus they're targets for ignorant retards to vandalize. The logistics of owning and moving a statue like this are probably the reason very few people bother with Lenin statues.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52590349]How is any of the reasons you listed here not applicable to confederate statues?[/QUOTE] Well, to play the Devil's avocado, the communist statues in former East Germany was put up by-... You know, East Germany. When it was communist. The Confederate statues in the US were put up by fuck-if-I-know in the United States of America. Which is not the Confederate States of America. If any of the statues are from 1861-1865, I'd agree that they held immense historical value. But since they're pretty much all from 1900-1920, long after the Confederate States was gone, that's not really the case.

[QUOTE=TurtleeyFP;52587658]I think there's a difference between statues idolizing the 'heroes' of the Confederacy, and a monument to Confederate soldiers. Lots of kids died and it shouldn't be a bad thing to remember them. [img]https://static.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/afeba6be-81ee-11e7-ab9c-b7d9b3802423-780x534.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] Washington didn't even fight in the Civil War. Why do they need confederate statues?

[QUOTE=plunger435;52593811]Washington didn't even fight in the Civil War. Why do they need confederate statues?[/QUOTE] I assume veterans moved there after the war.

[QUOTE=gokiyono;52593486]What part of history would be removed with the statues? There are still countless of museums and books and documentaries etc. about the stuff.[/QUOTE] Its not so much removing history as just making it less apparent. History should be ever present, especially the bad history so it can be a reminder of something we never want to happen again. That doesn't mean we should put up memorials to Hitler under the Reichstag or put up a statue of Stalin in Red Square. Its better to put up monuments and memorials dedicated to the people who suffered because of bad history. But tearing down a statue of Lenin or General Lee won't change the fact they're associated with horrible things. Ultimately it doesn't matter one way or the other. NeoNazis aren't in existence soly because some Hitler busts still exist, and "neo-confederates" don't exist just because theres General Lee and Stone Wall Jackson monuments. Removing those monuments wont suddenly right the wrongs of the past and they're not going to stop racist fools from being racist fools.