• Ultra-Orthodox Jews hang soldier effigies in draft protest
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[URL="http://www.timesofisrael.com/ultra-orthodox-jews-hang-soldier-effigies-in-draft-protest/"]http://www.timesofisrael.com/ultra-orthodox-jews-hang-soldier-effigies-in-draft-protest/[/URL] [QUOTE]Ultra-Orthodox Jews opposed to Israel’s compulsory military service hung effigies of religious soldiers Monday in a Jerusalem neighborhood, in a move that police denounced as incitement. A number of effigies of ultra-Orthodox Jews serving in the army were hung from the neck in prominent places in the ultra-Orthodox Mea Shearim neighborhood. One of them had a sign attached to it that read “hardak out,” a derogatory term for ultra-Orthodox Jews who join the army and which sounds similar to the Hebrew word for insect. There was no claim of responsibility for the dolls, but the Israel Police said in a statement that it took “extremely seriously” any attempt “by religious (ultra-Orthodox) to incite against soldiers.” Security forces took several hours to remove the effigies, with large crowds gathering and cheering their failures. Two ultra-Orthodox men were detained and brought in for questioning for trying to interfere with officers and firefighters taking down the dolls, the police spokeswoman said. Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan wrote on his Facebook page in response to the incident that those responsible for hanging the dolls are “disgusting people” and “debased criminals.” Ultra-Orthodox Jews represent about 10 percent of the Israeli population and live in compliance with a strict interpretation of Jewish laws. Some of them view military service as a source of temptation for young people who then leave the closed world of prayer and religious study. The ultra-Orthodox are exempt from serving if studying in religious schools known as yeshivas, though the issue is controversial with secular Israelis and attempts have been made to remove the exemption. Either way they must register at the recruitment office, but some, inspired by rabbis hostile to any cooperation with the Israeli authorities, refuse to and are considered deserters. Jack, an ultra-Orthodox man, who watched as firemen struggled to reach one of the effigies, said most members of his community did not agree with whoever hung the mannequins. “But we understand their position and we definitely think the police are overreacting,” said Jack, who did not give his surname. He explained that many ultra-Orthodox don’t believe that the State of Israel is holy as they are waiting for the return of the messiah. “So therefore there is no reason to fight for [Israel],” he said. [/QUOTE]
[quote] He explained that many ultra-Orthodox don’t believe that the State of Israel is holy as they are waiting for the return of the messiah. [/quote] Yeah I can assume that if you actually follow the teachings and moral lessons of any major religion that "aggressive expansionism" which often borders and sometimes extends into war crime territory might not be the actions of a "holy" entity in your eyes, ultra-ortodox or not.
[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51962357]Yeah I can assume that if you actually follow the teachings and moral lessons of any major religion that "aggressive expansionism" which often borders and sometimes extends into war crime territory might not be the actions of a "holy" entity in your eyes, ultra-ortodox or not.[/QUOTE] Except in that quote, you can clearly see that the ultra-Orthodox Jews are clearly nuts...
[QUOTE=DogGunn;51962366]Except in that quote, you can clearly see that the ultra-Orthodox Jews are clearly nuts...[/QUOTE] Broken clock is right twice a day at worst, but regardless of their approach to get the answer, they still arrived at the correct answer. Their justification is largely grounded in religion, as is anything that comes from the heavily religious. If you're giving soup to the poor because you believe that brings you to heaven or if you're doing it for the bettering of your fellow man, it doesn't matter as either way the poor get the soup. At the end of the day it is the means and the result that matter, not the justification.
What on earth are you trying to suggest then?
[QUOTE=DogGunn;51962427]What on earth are you trying to suggest then?[/QUOTE] The fact that they disagree with the actions of the State of Israel, which parades its self as the "holy state of the Jewish faith", while also being ultra-orthodox Jews is interesting and pretty telling of the state's actions seeing as they can't even herald the support of the ultra-orthodox? The Ultra-orthodox being generally what would be believed to be one of the easier groups to find support from if your nation was ran by a state religion and supposedly acts in the interests of said religion?
[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51962357]Yeah I can assume that if you actually follow the teachings and moral lessons of any major religion that "aggressive expansionism" which often borders and sometimes extends into war crime territory might not be the actions of a "holy" entity in your eyes, ultra-ortodox or not.[/QUOTE] Israel is a secular nation and the Ultra Orthodox are actually more willing to commit these war crimes than the normal Israeli. When the Messiah comes, they believe there will be a huge war between all of the nations of the world and the religious nation of Israel. If they think that war has come about, they would commit all the war crimes needed to win and they would say it's approved by God. Even if Israel didn't practice heavy restraint with bombing Palestinians and such, the war crimes they would commit would be nothing compared to what the Haredim would do. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51962465]The fact that they disagree with the actions of the State of Israel, which parades its self as the "holy state of the Jewish faith", while also being ultra-orthodox Jews is interesting and pretty telling of the state's actions seeing as they can't even herald the support of the ultra-orthodox? The Ultra-orthodox being generally what would be believed to be one of the easier groups to find support from if your nation was ran by a state religion and supposedly acts in the interests of said religion?[/QUOTE] Its not run by a state religion, it's a democracy, not a theocracy.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;51962474] Its not run by a state religion, it's a democracy, not a theocracy.[/QUOTE] As far as I'm concerned any nation in which the government holds full discretion of recognizing some religions groups and not recognizing others, holds no laws for marriage between people of different religions, marriages by people who do not belong to one of nine recognised religious groups, or of course same-sex marriages, is a state that holds its own religious affiliation by the state in some form, nor is it quite perfectly secular. Israel can be both a democracy and have a state religion, which is orthodox Judaism, because democracy is a method of governing, not a state institution. That'd be like saying the US isn't a democracy because it has the FDA or something like that.
[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51962498]As far as I'm concerned any nation in which the government holds full discretion of recognizing some religions groups and not recognizing others, holds no laws for marriage between people of different religions, marriages by people who do not belong to one of nine recognised religious groups, or of course same-sex marriages, is a state that holds its own religious affiliation by the state in some form, nor is it quite perfectly secular. Israel can be both a democracy and have a state religion, which is orthodox Judaism, because democracy is a method of governing, not a state institution. That'd be like saying the US isn't a democracy because it has the FDA or something like that.[/QUOTE] Israel is secular Jewish, the vast majority of people in it don't even keep basic things like Shabbat. The religious only have influence in the government because of the way that the coalition system works. While Israel does have higher restrictions on religion than most countries, it's not as bad as you paint it. It comes from the Status Quo agreement that Ben Gurion had with the Orthodox community. That agreement is being challenged more and more often and the Orthodox community are gradually losing power in Israel. They will regain it though.
Call a spade a spade, the Ultra-Orthodox are (for the most part) leeches on this society.
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