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[QUOTE][IMG]http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2013/07/24/viome-1_wide-4194670847b237bd33e6f3f9c365f864a918d070-s40.jpg[/IMG]
[I]Makis Anagnostou, a worker and union leader, bottles lavender-scented fabric softener at VIO.ME, a former tile materials factory that went bust and has been revived by its staff as a collective making environmentally-friendly detergent.[/I][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]The financial crisis in Greece has devastated the country's manufacturing sector, which has lost more than 30 percent of its jobs in the past three years. But at one factory in an industrial center in the north, workers have taken matters into their own hands.
[B]...[/B][/QUOTE]
[B]Read the rest of the fucking article and listen to the radio news segment before making stupid posts.[/B]
[url]http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2013/07/26/205164682/citing-dignity-greek-workers-take-over-factory[/url]
The start of a communist revolution in Greece! Quickly, throw money at them to fix the problems!
[QUOTE]"I was driving a forklift and now I'm an accountant ... a supplier, driver, anything you want," he says. That includes being a manager. There's no boss here, so for the past five months, Mokas and his fellow workers have also shared the administration of the plant.
When the shift is over at 3 p.m., they line up in a hot, airless office for a day's salary – just 10 euros, or about $13.
[/QUOTE]
I wonder how long this can last.
[QUOTE=Angus725;41629837]The start of a communist revolution in Greece! Quickly, throw money at them to fix the problems![/QUOTE]
It can be socialist you know..
[QUOTE=Sword and Paint;41630510]It can be socialist you know..[/QUOTE]
Since when has a communist revolution been successful?
[QUOTE=Angus725;41629837]The start of a communist revolution in Greece! Quickly, throw money at them to fix the problems![/QUOTE]
Better commies than facists.
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41630547]Since when has a communist revolution been successful?[/QUOTE]Quite often. What FOLLOWS the revolution however...
[QUOTE=Jad Hinto;41630638]Quite often. What FOLLOWS the revolution however...[/QUOTE]
Alot of communist countries do well for a while but eventually the bureaucracy builds up and the idealists are replaced by tyrants.
This owns
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41630582]Better commies than facists.[/QUOTE]
this, if you gotta choose between literal freaking nazis or communists, stay with the communists.
all workers are equal! but some are more equal than others, we must build a windmill to make the factory green! it will make our factory better than the others! .'s are for the capitalists! !'s are the people's punctuation!
all power to the workers' soviets
[QUOTE=kaine123;41627959]
[B]Read the rest of the fucking article and listen to the radio news segment before making stupid posts.[/B]
[url]http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2013/07/26/205164682/citing-dignity-greek-workers-take-over-factory[/url][/QUOTE]
going to be perfectly honest with you and say that I'm not going to listen to the radio part and will just read the article.
Direct action gets the goods. This is actually becoming more and more common in areas where capitalists are failing to hold their own capital. In the US and Greece, there are many examples of workers commandeering and surviving off of their former employers' capital when they seek to shut down the plant or lay off the workers, turning the enterprises into cooperatives.
[editline]29th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=areolop;41632892]going to be perfectly honest with you and say that I'm not going to listen to the radio part and will just read the article.[/QUOTE]
The radio basically says 80% the exact same thing in the same wording.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41630582]Better commies than facists.[/QUOTE]
Eh, not so sure about that. There's a whole lot more needless death of innocents under the name of communism than fascism.
Also, I'm not even sure why communism came up in this thread. The workers didn't revolt, they just continued working in a factory after the company went bankrupt. In fact, the entire story is based on the capitalistic idea of working by making a product that people want for a price people can afford. If only the government made it easy for them to actually start their own business. I would love to see them succeed.
[QUOTE=sgman91;41633243]Eh, not so sure about that. There's a whole lot more needless death of innocents under the name of communism than fascism.[/QUOTE]
that's solely because the fascist happened to lose
don't get me wrong, I'm not defending communist dictatorships here and acknowlege that technically yes, more innocents have been killed under communist orders, but still, the nazis would have literally wiped out every "subhuman" group off the face of the earth if they had been given the chance
[QUOTE=Virtanen;41633288]that's solely because the fascist happened to lose
don't get me wrong, I'm not defending communist dictatorships here and acknowlege that technically yes, more innocents have been killed under communist orders, but still, the nazis would have literally wiped out every "subhuman" group off the face of the earth if they had been given the chance[/QUOTE]
Was that fascism or Nazism? Italy was also fascist, but they didn't start killing on a racial basis until Germany pressured them to. Trust me, I hate fascism, but I hate communism equally. They have both led to incalculable suffering. It just bothers me that people flippantly throw around the idea of communism like it's nothing while any mention of fascism is taboo. If anything, communism should be even more taboo than fascism, based on it's brutal history.
[editline]28th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];41632941']Direct action gets the goods. This is actually becoming more and more common in areas where capitalists are failing to hold their own capital. In the US and Greece, there are many examples of workers commandeering and surviving off of their former employers' capital when they seek to shut down the plant or lay off the workers, turning the enterprises into cooperative[/QUOTE]
This isn't what happened based on the article. It says the factory was already shutting down and the workers continued to work. If anything they are exemplifying the ideals of capitalism. The company that made a product that wasn't successful failed and went bankrupt and a new group of people are coming together to create a new, better product that people actually want.
There's nothing in capitalism that says people can't all own a company together. Anything that improves efficiency is encouraged.
[QUOTE=sgman91;41633332]Was that fascism or Nazism? Italy was also fascist, but they didn't start killing on a racial basis until Germany pressured them to. Trust me, I hate fascism, but I hate communism equally. They have both led to incalculable suffering. It just bothers me that people flippantly throw around the idea of communism like it's nothing while any mention of fascism is taboo. If anything, communism should be even more taboo than fascism, based on it's brutal history.
[/QUOTE]
the difference is that fascism is inherently racist, and that will naturally lead to genocide, whereas communists ideals are far more noble than fascism, even if tends to not work in practice or get co-opted by tyrants.
also don't forget that every single communist nation in this planet has been plagued by western powers attempting to eradicate it from within or without.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;41630904]this, if you gotta choose between literal freaking nazis or communists, stay with the communists.[/QUOTE]
Not really. Your chances of being arrested and sent to a camp were probably the same.
You just needed to be homosexual, Jewish, a member of a religious minority, or to have an opinion different from that of the state.
Honestly if I was in a Communist or Nazi state without chance of escape, I'd find a way to kill myself as soon as possible.
[editline]29th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;41634683]the difference is that fascism is inherently racist, and that will naturally lead to genocide, whereas communists ideals are far more noble than fascism, even if tends to not work in practice or get co-opted by tyrants.[/quote]
How are they more noble? Marxist revolutionaries have always been power hungry despots.
You think they would be democratic and working in industrialized nations? No! They always go to an agricultural country with backwards methods and deep social problems. They wait for a moment to strike and then murder everybody who gets in the way.
The Soviet Union only survived because they were very very lucky during WW1. (Every communist revolution in other countries ended up crushed) After that, communist revolutions tended to be heavily supported by the USSR or some other country.
[quote]also don't forget that every single communist nation in this planet has been plagued by western powers attempting to eradicate it from within or without.[/QUOTE]
You do realize this is the excuse that communists used to arrest and kill so many innocent people within their countries?
[QUOTE=sgman91;41633332]
This isn't what happened based on the article. It says the factory was already shutting down and the workers continued to work. If anything they are exemplifying the ideals of capitalism. The company that made a product that wasn't successful failed and went bankrupt and a new group of people are coming together to create a new, better product that people actually want.
There's nothing in capitalism that says people can't all own a company together. Anything that improves efficiency is encouraged.[/QUOTE]
Collective ownership makes it market socialism. Capitalism requires that the property be private and leased. Don't get capitalism confused with a free market- they are separate things, and can be independent of each other. A cooperative arrangement is foundational of a socialist economic model. The primary point of capitalism is that the capital is owned by someone and leased out to another who does not own it.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];41637262']Collective ownership makes it market socialism. Capitalism requires that the property be private and leased. Don't get capitalism confused with a free market- they are separate things, and can be independent of each other. A cooperative arrangement is foundational of a socialist economic model. The primary point of capitalism is that the capital is owned by someone and leased out to another who does not own it.[/QUOTE]
The workers in this case are attempting to collectively own the factory. They also own the product that they are creating. This is simply a case of multiple owners which happens all the time in family businesses and other smaller endeavors.
Capitalism is simply a system where the countries industries are privately owned and run for profit. Both of these still apply to this situation.
So much ignorance of marxism in this thread
[QUOTE=sgman91;41637584]The workers in this case are attempting to collectively own the factory. They also own the product that they are creating. This is simply a case of multiple owners which happens all the time in family businesses and other smaller endeavors.
Capitalism is simply a system where the countries industries are privately owned and run for profit. Both of these still apply to this situation.[/QUOTE]
A collectively worker-owned factory governed by a worker-elected council is the definition of a soviet factory
[QUOTE=prooboo;41637997]So much ignorance of marxism in this thread[/QUOTE]
Marxism is dead anyways. The economics part is easily destroyed, and the rest collapses like a tower of cards once you get rid of the economics part.
Anything left useful from that school of thought has been stripped away and incorporated into modern knowledge.
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41634998]Not really. Your chances of being arrested and sent to a camp were probably the same.
You just needed to be homosexual, Jewish, a member of a religious minority, or to have an opinion different from that of the state.
Honestly if I was in a Communist or Nazi state without chance of escape, I'd find a way to kill myself as soon as possible.
[/quote]
there are 6 milion jews, 3 million gypsies and africans that would like to disagree with you.
that fact that you honestly think that if facists nations had survived WW2 they wouldn't do shit waaaay worse than the communist did, is kinda ridiculous.
hitler objetctive for instance for the balkans and pretty everything east of germany, with the exception ot the nordic countries, was to enslave and kill everyone.
[quote]
How are they more noble? Marxist revolutionaries have always been power hungry despots.
You think they would be democratic and working in industrialized nations? No! They always go to an agricultural country with backwards methods and deep social problems. They wait for a moment to strike and then murder everybody who gets in the way.
The Soviet Union only survived because they were very very lucky during WW1. (Every communist revolution in other countries ended up crushed) After that, communist revolutions tended to be heavily supported by the USSR or some other country.
[/quote]
communist objectives never were to enslave and murder everyone who happens to be slightly different, that alone makes it better.
and yes, of course they were crushed, EVERY western power tried to crush them.
[quote]You do realize this is the excuse that communists used to arrest and kill so many innocent people within their countries?[/QUOTE]
you do realise that one doesn't negate the other right?
it amuses me how some people seem to honestly believe that communism is actually worse than nazis of all things :suicide:
red scare is a hell of a drug.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;41639566]there are 6 milion jews, 3 million gypsies and africans that would like to disagree with you.
that fact that you honestly think that if facists nations had survived WW2 they wouldn't do shit waaaay worse than the communist did, is kinda ridiculous.
hitler objetctive for instance for the balkans and pretty everything east of germany, with the exception ot the nordic countries, was to enslave and kill everyone.[/quote]
Stalin spent a lot of time trying to eliminate the Polish, Ukrainians, and Baltic states. In fact, those very countries hated the Soviet Union so much they spent the entire occupation constantly rebelling and classified Holodomor as genocide.
Also Stalin planned to kill the Jews anyways. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot[/url]
[quote]communist objectives never were to enslave and murder everyone who happens to be slightly different, that alone makes it better.[/quote]
Lol they did this all the time anyways. Haven't you heard of the gulags? Millions went to them for being homosexual or "kulaks" (an invented scare term).
[quote]and yes, of course they were crushed, EVERY western power tried to crush them.[/quote]
No, they collapsed through their own incompetence. The Soviet economy stagnated in the 1970s, and then food shortages became prevalent. By the 1990s, it was in tatters.
Communism took Russia from being a net food exporter and breadbasket, to a nation of starving people.
[quote]you do realise that one doesn't negate the other right?
it amuses me how some people seem to honestly believe that communism is actually worse than nazis of all things :suicide:
red scare is a hell of a drug.[/QUOTE]
I see them both as equally horrible. Communists and Nazis are as morally deplorable as each other. Anarchists and Trotskyists seem to be especially of the view that the Soviet Union was at the very least, a betrayer of the ideals of the revolution and one that routinely killed people in the same manner as the tsars.
The Communists are Red Tsars.
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41639644]Stalin spent a lot of time trying to eliminate the Polish, Ukrainians, and Baltic states. In fact, those very countries hated the Soviet Union so much they spent the entire occupation constantly rebelling and classified Holodomor as genocide.
Also Stalin planned to kill the Jews anyways. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot[/url]
[/QUOTE]
stalin isn't the personification of communism you know, you also seem to forget that a lot of people, even in power disliked stalin.
[quote]Lol they did this all the time anyways. Haven't you heard of the gulags? Millions went to them for being homosexual or "kulaks" (an invented scare term).[/QUOTE]
and still is nowhere near as bad as nazis were, or would have been if given decades in power.
[quote]No, they collapsed through their own incompetence. The Soviet economy stagnated in the 1970s, and then food shortages became prevalent. By the 1990s, it was in tatters.
Communism took Russia from being a net food exporter and breadbasket, to a nation of starving people.
[/QUOTE]
i like how your argument doesn't have coherence anymore, you were mentioning other revolutions, not the soviet one, and then you come back to bash soviets faliures.
and again, one thing doesn't negate the other.
[quote]I see them both as equally horrible. Communists and Nazis are as morally deplorable as each other. Anarchists and [B]Trotskyists seem to be especially of the view that the Soviet Union was at the very least, a betrayer of the ideals of the revolution [/B]and one that routinely killed people in the same manner as the tsars.
The Communists are Red Tsars.[/QUOTE]
holy shit, you actually get it, soviet style communism was not true socialism, or even an actual true attempt at communism, not after stalin took over, there is a reason he ordered the destruction of marx books, because according to him, soviet communism was the "asian model of capitalism".
now how about you put in your head, that the ideals of communism which are:
a society with that is classless and moneyless, every the workers own the method of production, which in theory would result in freedom from oppression.
and that IS better by a long shot than nazism which claims that:
those who are genetically superior should kill/enslave everyone who isn't?
there is literally nothing good that you can say about nazism and fascism, whereas you can still appreciate the communists goals, even if you think it will just get corrupted.
but then again, EVERYTHING can get corrupted, look at all the genocides caused by capitalist nations in africa or asia for instance, or the clusterfuck that is modern middle east, which you can blame mostly on england and the US.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;41639851]stalin isn't the personification of communism you know, you also seem to forget that a lot of people, even in power disliked stalin.[/quote]
"He wasn't a True Communist™"
No true scotsman fallacy doesn't work here. What about the dictatorships of China, Hungary, Cuba?
[quote]and still is nowhere near as bad as nazis were, or would have been if given decades in power.[/quote]
So somehow this is a way to defend Communism? By painting some other group of bloodthirsty bigoted bastards as being slightly worse?
You have to concede that millions suffered under Stalin.
[quote]i like how your argument doesn't have coherence anymore, you were mentioning other revolutions, not the soviet one, and then you come back to bash soviets faliures.
and again, one thing doesn't negate the other.[/quote]
Except it's true lol. Try explaining why every Communist country ends up a shit hole (Minus liberalizing ones like China which are moving away from communism).
It's not because of a capitalist conspiracy trying to undermine Communism.
[quote]holy shit, you actually get it, soviet style communism was not true socialism, or even an actual true attempt at communism, not after stalin took over, there is a reason he ordered the destruction of marx books, because according to him, soviet communism was the "asian model of capitalism".[/quote]
No True Communist™
[quote]now how about you put in your head, that the ideals of communism which are:
a society with that is classless and moneyless, every the workers own the method of production, which in theory would result in freedom from oppression.
and that IS better than by a long shot than nazism which claims that:
those who are genetically superior should kill/enslave everyone who isn't?
there is literally nothing good that you can say about nazism and fascism, whereas you can still appreciate the communists goals, even if you think it will just get corrupted.[/quote]
If there is nothing good about Fascism, why did people support it? If Communism is so good, how come Communist parties always fail electorally?
[quote]but then again, EVERYTHING can get corrupted, look at all the genocides caused by capitalist nations in africa or asia for instance, or the clusterfuck that is modern middle east, which you can blame mostly on england and the US.[/quote]
Oh yes it's definitely because of the capitalists, and certainly not due to the machinations of the United States and the Soviet Union trying to get these countries trying to fight proxy wars oh no.
Also I'm pretty sure you are forgetting genocides by dictators like Pol-Pot Noodle, or having it up the arse with Ho Chi Minh in Saigon.
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41639931]"He wasn't a True Communist™"
No true scotsman fallacy doesn't work here. What about the dictatorships of China, Hungary, Cuba?
[/quote]
there is no "No true scotsman fallacy" to begin with here.
china - mao attempted a cult of personality and never actually delivered anything communist ideals were supposed to be, after he died, china pretty much dropped all pretense, and its downright capitalist since then.
cuba - actually somewhat succeded partially in communist ideals, despite failling pretty hard in some, becoming something of a powerhouse in medicine, having an endless trade embargo doesn't exactly help either.
hungary however was a complete cluster fuck and total faliure from beginning to end filled, and heavily influenced by the soviets(and thus stalin).
[quote]So somehow this is a way to defend Communism? By painting some other group of bloodthirsty bigoted bastards as being slightly worse?
You have to concede that millions suffered under Stalin.[/quote]
it not a defense, its a fact, if you apply the standard that every bloodthirst asshole automatically discredits a certain ideology without actually analizing said ideology, then literally all of them are worthless.
also i did, and my point stands, nazis would have done worse.
[quote]Except it's true lol. Try explaining why every Communist country ends up a shit hole (Minus liberalizing ones like China which are moving away from communism).
It's not because of a capitalist conspiracy trying to undermine Communism.[/quote]
you honestly believe that? you don't think that having to worry about freaking US and its allies in an insane arms race against the soviets and literally every other communist nation in the planet wasn't something that drained massive resources from pretty much every area in said nations, have you ever heard of something called the cold war, not to mention the constant assasination attempts by the CIA?
you don't think that having almost every rich corporation trying to fuck up with your goverment across the planet and supporting explicity capitalist systems is also bad?
never mind the fact that several of these said revolutions were simply tinpot tyrants in the making using communism as an excuse, the same way every other ideology is used, no matter what you say, you can't deny that communist ideals are in itself good, only that the execution is fucked up in every way, you can't say the same about facism and nazism, but by all means, continue to ignore that.
[quote]No True Communist™[/quote]
nazis called themselves national socialists, they were not socialist in any way, calling yourself something, doesn't mean you truly were.
[quote]If there is nothing good about Fascism, why did people support it? If Communism is so good, how come Communist parties always fail electorally? [/quote]
because economical crisis lead to extremism? never mind the fact that facists parties were supported by corporations globally, whereas communist ones weren't, also because politicians are REALLY good a lying and presenting them as saviors? plus europe was extremely racist back then, hell easier to blame everything in a convient scapegoat that no one ever liked(a.k.a jews).
want a modern example? people in egypt also put morsi in power, and he was a tool and did literally nothing good for egypt.
[quote]Oh yes it's definitely because of the capitalists, and certainly not due to the machinations of the United States and the Soviet Union trying to get these countries trying to fight proxy wars oh no.
Also I'm pretty sure you are forgetting genocides by dictators like Pol-Pot Noodle, or having it up the arse with Ho Chi Minh in Saigon.[/QUOTE]
yes, because soviet union caused things like the toppling of a democratically elected socialist leader in iran, which then resulted in the damn ayotalah, or handling weapons to the taliban and calling them freedom fighters.
but right according to you the capitalist are saints.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;41634683]the difference is that fascism is inherently racist, and that will naturally lead to genocide, whereas communists ideals are far more noble than fascism, even if tends to not work in practice or get co-opted by tyrants.
also don't forget that every single communist nation in this planet has been plagued by western powers attempting to eradicate it from within or without.[/QUOTE]
Fascism isn't inherently racist, just super nationalistic. Nazism was inherently racist. One is the difference between being hoorah italians! and the other being hoorah white people!
They're two closely related but different doctrines.
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