The White House recognizes Nov 7, "National Day for the Victims of Communism"
90 replies, posted
[quote]Today, the National Day for the Victims of Communism, marks 100 years since the Bolshevik Revolution took place in Russia. The Bolshevik Revolution gave rise to the Soviet Union and its dark decades of oppressive communism, a political philosophy incompatible with liberty, prosperity, and the dignity of human life.
Over the past century, communist totalitarian regimes around the world have killed more than 100 million people and subjected countless more to exploitation, violence, and untold devastation. These movements, under the false pretense of liberation, systematically robbed innocent people of their God-given rights of free worship, freedom of association, and countless other rights we hold sacrosanct. Citizens yearning for freedom were subjugated by the state through the use of coercion, violence, and fear.
Today, we remember those who have died and all who continue to suffer under communism. In their memory and in honor of the indomitable spirit of those who have fought courageously to spread freedom and opportunity around the world, our Nation reaffirms its steadfast resolve to shine the light of liberty for all who yearn for a brighter, freer future.[/quote]
[url]https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/11/07/national-day-victims-communism[/url]
Uh... why? Who asked for this?
wtf
i wonder what the US communist party will say
I feel like the distinction between stalinism and communism ought to be made but nuance is dead with this administration.
Can we have a National Day for the Victims of Crony Capitalism too?
Bizarre that we've got an administration going for red scare tactics while colluding with Russia
[QUOTE=Judas;52870964]Uh... why? Who asked for this?[/QUOTE]
The millions who’s voices were silenced by forced famine, death marches and organized slaughter.
Damn that's pretty passive aggressive.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52870984]I feel like the distinction between stalinism and communism ought to be made but nuance is dead with this administration.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, there are other genocidal communist regimes besides the USSR. The Chinese Communist Party killed tens of millions directly or indirectly, with Mao himself predicting that 50,000,000 peasants would have to die to achieve his agricultural reforms. The Khmer Rouge in Cambodia killed millions as well. Millions in North Korea too.
The very idea of Communism, in fact, calls for the violent purging of an entire class of people. In the manifesto Marx and Engels spoke of open civil war and "the violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie".
Marx later went on to say he wanted a peaceful revolution, but as far as I'm concerned that's like Richard Spencer saying he wants "peaceful ethnic cleansing" and "voluntary mass deportation" to cover his clearly genocidal views.
Do agree this is a shit move that'll feed the paranoia of Trump supporters who view Antifa/Communists as some sort of highly sophisticated domestic terrorist network.
As much as I feel communism by itself should be separated from totalitarian oppression, it does seem to go hand-in-hand with it in... Pretty much all cases where it's actually pursued (such as not Yugoslavia or modern China).
It's not a nuanced title but whatever. Not a paid holiday either way so who cares.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52871012]Bizarre that we've got an administration going for red scare tactics while colluding with Russia[/QUOTE]
It's post-communism, capitalist-loving Russia with plenty of stakes in state-owned oil companies to sell.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52870984]I feel like the distinction between stalinism and communism ought to be made but nuance is dead with this administration.[/QUOTE]
Stalin wasn't the only communist who murdered shitloads of innocent people in the name of a failed ideology that'll never work. Lenin did too, Castro did, Guevera did, Pol Pot did, the Kims continue to, and lets' not forget that in terms of number killed, Mao was just as bad as Stalin, and both of them were worse than Hitler.
Trying to dissociate communist dictatorships with communism is disingenuous because they show the inevitability of what communism becomes when put into practice. The "ideal" communism that communists speak of will never happen, it will always lead to what we've already seen happen in every communist regime, and frankly I think the people who plug their ears and go "That's not real communism la la la" whenever the atrocities of communist regimes are brought up are in wilful ignorance of the reality that communism has never worked and can never work.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52871013]The millions who’s voices were silenced by forced famine, death marches and organized slaughter.[/QUOTE]
Has any other president done this?
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52871013]The millions who’s voices were silenced by forced famine, death marches and organized slaughter.[/QUOTE]
Trump signing a piece of "feel really bad about this yall" paper isn't gonna bring them back
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;52871073]Stalin wasn't the only communist who murdered shitloads of innocent people in the name of a failed ideology that'll never work. Lenin did too, Castro did, Guevera did, Pol Pot did, the Kims continue to, and lets' not forget that in terms of number killed, Mao was just as bad as Stalin, and both of them were worse than Hitler.
[/QUOTE]
It's a stretch imo to classify the Khmer Rouge regime as communist, and while plenty of people died under the regimes of Kims, it really isn't communist either, to the point where they outright dropped communism from their constitution in 2009.
[QUOTE=Harbie;52871033]The very idea of Communism, in fact, calls for the violent purging of an entire class of people. In the manifesto Marx and Engels spoke of open civil war and "the violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie". [/QUOTE]
Not a Communist, but to my understanding, Marx expected the bourgeoisie to begin the revolution and to be the ones to bring it forth to the people.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;52871110]It's a stretch imo to classify the Khmer Rouge regime as communist, and while plenty of people died under the regimes of Kims, it really isn't communist either, to the point where they outright dropped communism from their constitution in 2009.[/QUOTE]
Juche is a form of communism. Its basis was a communist revolution, and it is touted by the Kims as being the "ideal" form of communism. They are a communist regime.
I'd say it's a bit of a stretch to classify modern-day China as communist with the rampant consumerism there, but they still glorify Mao, who was a red fascist, communist, and one of the worst human beings to ever walk the earth.
But then again communism only slaughtered my great-grandfather at Katyn, sent my grandfather and great-grandmother from Poland to Siberia, and stole my grandmother's family's property, forcing them to flee Poland in order to escape the oppressive communist regime installed there, so what do I know about communism?
Frankly I hold any Stalinist as morally equivalent to a neo-Nazi.
[QUOTE=Judas;52871084]Trump signing a piece of "feel really bad about this yall" paper isn't gonna bring them back[/QUOTE]
Would you say the same about Holocaust Remembrance day?
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52871137]Would you say the same about Holocaust Remembrance day?[/QUOTE]
if Trump invented holocaust rememberance day, signed a meaningless piece of paper, and then did nothing to bring awareness to the holocaust or prevent another one from ever happening again (which he would do then and will do here) then yes absolutely
however the people who made holocaust remembrance actually care about the subject and are physically capable of compassion, unlike trump who is clearly doing this for brownie points and/or to distract people
[QUOTE=Judas;52871145]if Trump invented holocaust rememberance day, signed a meaningless piece of paper, and then did nothing to bring awareness to the holocaust or prevent another one from ever happening again (which he would do then and will do here) then yes absolutely
however the people who made holocaust remembrance actually care about the subject and are physically capable of compassion, unlike trump who is clearly doing this for brownie points and/or to distract people[/QUOTE]
Why does this seem insincere to you?
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52870984]I feel like the distinction between stalinism and communism ought to be made but nuance is dead with this administration.[/QUOTE]
People on this forum can't even make the distinction between actual Marxist Communism and Cold War Soviet/socialist states, this is a pretty terrible place to even complain about that.
Obama signed equally "meaningless" proclamations of remembrance for the victims of 9/11, and I can't recall people here shitting on him for that. If anything, by and large he was praised for it.
And yet here people are, shitting on Trump for doing something similar.
Honestly it's the partisan hypocrisy that pisses me off the most here. Obama signs a declaration of remembrance and it's great that he's bringing attention to a national tragedy. Trump signs a declaration of remembrance and he's wasting resources for something nobody asked for? That's a load of bullshit. People literally, just because of the fact that they don't like him because he's an idiot and a Republican, will refuse to acknowledge when Trump does a good thing. And these same people were shitting on Republicans in the most hypocritical way for doing the same thing to Obama during his administration. Cut the shit already, just because you don't like the man doesn't mean you have to hate literally everything that he ever does for fuck's sake.
[QUOTE=JeSuisIkea;52871113]Not a Communist, but to my understanding, Marx expected the bourgeoisie to begin the revolution and to be the ones to bring it forth to the people.[/QUOTE]
That's... completely wrong.
[QUOTE=Harbie;52871033]
The very idea of Communism, in fact, calls for the violent purging of an entire class of people. In the manifesto Marx and Engels spoke of open civil war and "the violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie".
[/QUOTE]
That specific line is a historical observation being made by Marx, that the course of history shows capitalistic governments to be self-destructive.
But later on he talks about the bourgeoisie who support capitalism (who would practically be all of them) should be overthrown so you aren't wrong really, he just never says to use violence explicitly.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;52871133]Juche is a form of communism. Its basis was a communist revolution, and it is touted by the Kims as being the "ideal" form of communism. [/QUOTE]
Juche as it exists now is not at all like communism nor really at all like socialism. Even early on it was seen more as a Korean take on Marxism-Leninism. It's divorced from some of the bedrock communist beliefs, focusing more on nationalism and the hierarchy of the Kim dynasty than on the class struggle. Part of the reason why communism, socialism, and Marxism has taken a backseat is due to the fact that it inherently contradicts the practical applications of the North Korean regime. A good quote I found is that North Korea may look "Stalinist in form", but that it was "nationalist in content."
I'd say Juche is Communist as much as the Peoples Democratic Republic of Korea is democratic or a republic. That is to say, not at all.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;52871133]They are a communist regime.[/QUOTE]
Tell that to the tens of thousands of dead communists buried in North Korea.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;52871133]I'd say it's a bit of a stretch to classify modern-day China as communist with the rampant consumerism there, but they still glorify Mao, who was a red fascist, communist, and one of the worst human beings to ever walk the earth.[/QUOTE]
At least China is explicitly communist.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;52871133]But then again communism only slaughtered my great-grandfather at Katyn, sent my grandfather and great-grandmother from Poland to Siberia, and stole my grandmother's family's property, forcing them to flee Poland in order to escape the oppressive communist regime installed there, so what do I know about communism?
Frankly I hold any Stalinist as morally equivalent to a neo-Nazi.[/QUOTE]
Preaching to the choir bud, I hate communism. From a detached economic and political point of view it's inefficient and just as prone, if not more so, to corruption as any other system of managing resources that man has created since. And from a human perspective the 97% success rate of creating "a hell that no person deserves" is abominable. I'm just saying that for two of the countries you listed it wouldn't really be accurate to pin their atrocities (the vast majority of them, at least) on following strict communist ideology. Plenty have been killed directly by an oppressively cruel government or indirectly by an oppressively incompetent government in both Russia and China, it's not necessary to identify tinpot dictatorships as "communism" when their power structures were communist for all of 6 months between the revolution starting and the powerbase solidifying.
We already recognize World Freedom Day 2 days from now, which commemorates the fall of the Soviet Union. It's kind of weird to create another holiday in the same week to commemorate its creation. There's also already Black Ribbon Day, which memorializes both the victims of Communism and Nazism
World Freedom Day is so similar you can go back and grab passages from previous year's proclamations and they read almost identically to this release.
[quote]Freedom has expanded across the globe because principled men and women have marched, spoken out, and demanded the rights and dignity that should be enjoyed by all humanity. Those nations that have already secured these liberties share a responsibility to uphold the light of freedom in other countries as well as in their own. [/quote]
[quote]. In their memory and in honor of the indomitable spirit of those who have fought courageously to spread freedom and opportunity around the world, our Nation reaffirms its steadfast resolve to shine the light of liberty for all who yearn for a brighter, freer future.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Tudd;52871159]Why does this seem insincere to you?[/QUOTE]
Why do you think he is the first President (as far as I know, feel free to correct me) to feel the need to do this?
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;52871169]Obama signed equally "meaningless" proclamations of remembrance for the victims of 9/11, and I can't recall people here shitting on him for that. If anything, by and large he was praised for it.[/QUOTE]
Source? not that I don't believe you I'd just like to know which proclamations we are talking about.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;52871169]And yet here people are, shitting on Trump for doing something similar.
Honestly it's the partisan hypocrisy that pisses me off the most here. Obama signs a declaration of remembrance and it's great that he's bringing attention to a national tragedy. Trump signs a declaration of remembrance and he's wasting resources for something nobody asked for? That's a load of bullshit. People literally, just because of the fact that they don't like him because he's an idiot and a Republican, will refuse to acknowledge when Trump does a good thing. And these same people were shitting on Republicans in the most hypocritical way for doing the same thing to Obama during his administration. Cut the shit already, just because you don't like the man doesn't mean you have to hate literally everything that he ever does for fuck's sake.[/QUOTE]
This just isn't accurate. People on FP have generally approved of things he has done as President when they feel like he has done genuinely good things, like pulling TPP and appointing Mattis as Secretary of Defense.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52870984]I feel like the distinction between stalinism and communism ought to be made but nuance is dead with this administration.[/QUOTE]
Socialist communist bulshevick anarchist, better dead than red!
ya nuance has been dead since like 1954...
[QUOTE=mcharest;52870988]Can we have a National Day for the Victims of Crony Capitalism too?[/QUOTE]
afraid that's already reserved for January 20th
[QUOTE=Raidyr;52871198]Why do you think he is the first President (as far as I know, feel free to correct me) to feel the need to do this?
Source? not that I don't believe you I'd just like to know which proclamations we are talking about.
This just isn't accurate. People on FP have generally approved of things he has done as President when they feel like he has done genuinely good things, like pulling TPP and appointing Mattis as Secretary of Defense.[/QUOTE]
[url]https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-09/president-obama-declares-days-of-remembrance-for-9-11[/url]
And people are literally making fun of him for his helicopter not flying in the fog. They are making fun of him for his pilot not doing something blatantly unsafe. I honestly see almost nothing on here but childish insults towards him no matter what the topic is, and the hypocrisy of it is getting really fucking annoying because these are the same people who would shit on anyone who made the same kind of childish remarks towards Obama over the same kind of things. And nobody will ever admit to it, because admitting to one's own hypocrisy means that one acknowledges what they're doing is wrong and they're only doing it now because they don't like the particular target of their insults.
He does plenty of shit that is worthy of valid criticism. This is not one of those things, yet here people are shitting on it. Frankly, even when he does do something worthy of criticism, all I ever see are insults towards not only him, but literally every Republican. These are the kinds of stupid, childish insults I would make towards Bush when I was literally 12.
[QUOTE]
In depicting the most general phases of the development of the proletariat, we traced the more or less veiled civil war, raging within existing society, up to the point where that war breaks out into open revolution, and where the violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie lays the foundation for the sway of the proletariat.
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[url]https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm#007[/url]
Marx clearly advocates the violent destruction of the ruling class. He tries to justify this by explaining that its just an escalation of the 'veiled civil war' taking place between the ruling class and the proletariat, but justifying violent action against a particular class or group of people by blaming them for all of the economic and social ills of a nation is historically a quick road to violent purges. Political opponents tend to slip into this group of acceptable targets in communist regimes rather quickly.
Hitler justified the Holocaust by blaming wealthy Jews for the loss of WWI, as well as pretty much every social and financial ill in Germany.
[QUOTE]
The first generation of post-war deniers…. justified Nazi anti-Semitism by asserting that the Jews were responsible for their own suffering, since they had caused Germany’s financial and political problems.
[/QUOTE]
[url]http://jcpa.org/article/justifying-the-holocaust-and-promoting-a-second-one/[/url]
As I had said, Marx later claimed he wanted a 'peaceful revolution against the upper class'. But if you're cool with that sort of backtracking then you should be fine with the 'peaceful ethnic cleansing' advocated by Richard Spencer and his ilk. Prefacing something with 'peaceful' doesn't work when the task in question is something inherently not peaceful like the destruction of an entire social class in a revolution or ethnic fucking cleansing.
You could offer Finland or other socialist European countries as examples of successful socialist/communist governments, but they achieved that success via gradual democratic means, not a sudden revolution as advocated for by Marx.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;52871110]
It's a stretch imo to classify the Khmer Rouge regime as communist, and while plenty of people died under the regimes of Kims, it really isn't communist either, to the point where they outright dropped communism from their constitution in 2009.
[/QUOTE]
The Khmer rogue openly identified as communist, and attempted to implement agricultural reforms and a planned economy, hallmarks of communist regimes. They were, as many communist regimes were, wildly nationalistic and repressive. But they were still communist. If you are arguing that that the fact that they were autocratic and xenophobic in addition to being communist somehow makes them not communist, you're committing a fallacy.
Yeah, not arguing about post-80s China. Was referring to China under Mao. You could argue they're even more capitalist than the west now, in terms of money/bribes letting you do essentially anything you want.
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;52871162]
People on this forum can't even make the distinction between actual Marxist Communism and Cold War Soviet/socialist states, this is a pretty terrible place to even complain about that.
[/QUOTE]
I am making the distinction. "Actual Marxist Communism" is a violent ideology.
To be clear, I'm neither saying that Western governments have never committed any genocides or acts of violence, nor am I saying that every aspect of communist ideology is bad. Scandinavian-style democratic socialism seems to work out pretty well. But as a whole, yes, Marxism and Communism are violent ideologies that advocate the purging of a significant portion of the population.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;52871215][URL]https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-09/president-obama-declares-days-of-remembrance-for-9-11[/URL]
[/QUOTE]
Is making the two days prior to 9/11 days of remembrance really the same as picking a day out of November to honor the victims of communism? I don't think so.
Why do you think Trump is doing this now? Why this day, one year after the election he won, decades after the USSR split apart, after successive post-USSR presidents?
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;52871215]And people are literally making fun of him for his helicopter not flying in the fog. They are making fun of him for his pilot not doing something blatantly unsafe. I honestly see almost nothing on here but childish insults towards him no matter what the topic is, and the hypocrisy of it is getting really fucking annoying because these are the same people who would shit on anyone who made the same kind of childish remarks towards Obama over the same kind of things. And nobody will ever admit to it, because admitting to one's own hypocrisy means that one acknowledges what they're doing is wrong and they're only doing it now because they don't like the particular target of their insults.
He does plenty of shit that is worthy of valid criticism. This is not one of those things, yet here people are shitting on it. Frankly, even when he does do something worthy of criticism, all I ever see are insults towards not only him, but literally every Republican. These are the kinds of stupid, childish insults I would make towards Bush when I was literally 12.[/QUOTE]
People make stupid complaints about Trump, and people make stupid complaints about Obama, but the complaints aren't substantively a same. If someone judges them differently by the same criticism then sure that's hypocrisy, otherwise it's just opinions. The dudes approval rating is at a historical low, you are going to see a lot of criticisms from a lot of corners. The best thing you can do, if you are so inclined (and god help you if you are) is to combat each claim that you see as insubstantive. Nobody is going to "admit to their hypocrisy" if they laughed at people calling Obama a "muslamic atheist socialist" but don't like Trump, and you shouldn't expect them to.
As for why people insult Republicans, how about looking at their fucking party and members sometime. The shit that comes out of that party is almost comic book villain level.
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