Los Angeles City Council votes for $15/h minimum wage by 2020 - Polidicks

[QUOTE]LOS ANGELES (AP) — The Los Angeles City Council has voted to raise the minimum wage in the city to $15 an hour by 2020, making it the largest city in the nation to do so. The measure approved Tuesday calls for small businesses with 25 or fewer employees to have an additional year to reach the $15 plateau. The council voted 14-1 after members of the public made impassioned statements for and against the plan. The vote sends the measure to the city attorney to prepare a wage ordinance. The increases begin with a wage of $10.50 in July 2016, followed by annual increases to $12, $13.25, $14.25 and then $15. Small businesses and nonprofits would be a year behind. [/QUOTE] [url]http://bigstory.ap.org/article/86eb7cde7cdc4557a8ef10c5ed0a82cb/los-angeles-city-council-votes-15-minimum-wage[/url]

And now no one else is going to do it until 2022. Reasoning being that LA is a testbed for this type of thing :v:

Adjusted for an average inflation rate of %2, this would be like raising the current $9.00 minimum to $14.00. Still pretty nice.

Can somebody explain to me why conservatives are freaking out about this? I don't understand economics that much.

[QUOTE=axelord157;47759040]Can somebody explain to me why conservatives are freaking out about this? I don't understand economics that much.[/QUOTE] Because they aren't the ones earning minimum wage.

[QUOTE=axelord157;47759040]Can somebody explain to me why conservatives are freaking out about this? I don't understand economics that much.[/QUOTE] Minimum wage is typically paid for entry level jobs. Jobs that can be done by "anyone" with a minimum of training. By increasing minimum wage (almost doubling it) employers will have to justify their new hires- and be much more demanding in what they expect. What this means in a nutshell... If before they would hire ten people, they can now only afford to hire 5 people. The amount of work (the ten were expected to do) has not changed except it must now be done by 5. Those 5 new hires will not be the usual entry level hires of the past. With less people to hire they can refine their selections considerably. This means less opportunities for 18 yr old high school grads- because for 15 hr they can find someone with prior experience and/or higher education backgrounds. To sum it up even further- 100 minimum wage jobs will not turn into 100 (15hr) minimum wage jobs.

[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;47759380]Minimum wage is typically paid for entry level jobs. Jobs that can be done by "anyone" with a minimum of training. By increasing minimum wage (almost doubling it) employers will have to justify their new hires- and be much more demanding in what they expect. What this means in a nutshell... If before they would hire ten people, they can now only afford to hire 5 people. The amount of work (the ten were expected to do) has not changed except it must now be done by 5. Those 5 new hires will not be the usual entry level hires of the past. With less people to hire they can refine their selections considerably. This means less opportunities for 18 yr old high school grads- because for 15 hr they can find someone with prior experience and/or higher education backgrounds. To sum it up even further- 100 minimum wage jobs will not turn into 100 (15hr) minimum wage jobs.[/QUOTE] It depends on the wage increases and unemployment figures too. I think that if the wage increase is relatively modest (i.e stays in line with inflation) then the impact on employment figures is pretty small.

[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;47759380]Minimum wage is typically paid for entry level jobs. Jobs that can be done by "anyone" with a minimum of training. By increasing minimum wage (almost doubling it) employers will have to justify their new hires- and be much more demanding in what they expect. What this means in a nutshell... If before they would hire ten people, they can now only afford to hire 5 people. The amount of work (the ten were expected to do) has not changed except it must now be done by 5. Those 5 new hires will not be the usual entry level hires of the past. With less people to hire they can refine their selections considerably. This means less opportunities for 18 yr old high school grads- because for 15 hr they can find someone with prior experience and/or higher education backgrounds. To sum it up even further- 100 minimum wage jobs will not turn into 100 (15hr) minimum wage jobs.[/QUOTE] You can't just compress space and time to turn a job for 10 cashiers in to 5 cashiers. There is no such thing as qualified cashiers, after 2 weeks on the job, everybody works at the same rate. And there is certainly some borderline internship jobs and some stuff like serving jobs, where there is a longer learning curve and your argument makes sense, but that makes up a very small percentage of the minimum wage jobs.

[QUOTE=axelord157;47759040]Can somebody explain to me why conservatives are freaking out about this? I don't understand economics that much.[/QUOTE] Just because minimum wage goes up, doesn't mean that everyone's income will go up. Just like H8Entitlement said, if they don't hire less people, then they might shorten employees hours. Even if you make $20 an hour don't mean much if you only get 10-15 hours a week. And what about people who started at minimum wage, worked hard and promotion after promotion now make a decent $15 or $16 an hour. They most likely are not going to be affected by a minimum wage increase and are going to be now making almost (or the same) as a newly hired will make. At the end of the day, the company is going to have to pay out a higher overhead for staff and recoup their losses another way; They might raise prices on their products, hire less people, work their employees less hours. Either way, the company doesn't lose much in the end, the employees and the customers do. [b]edit:[/b] Now I'm not against raising the minimum wage, it needs to go up with inflation, I just don't think its going to have the benefits everyone seems to think it will.

[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;47759380]This means less opportunities for 18 yr old high school grads- because for 15 hr they can find someone with prior experience and/or higher education backgrounds.[/QUOTE] That's why you have different minimum wages for different ages, like here. I can't remember the specific figures but it's like $12 per hour for 18 year olds, $15 per hour for 19 year olds and $17 per hour for anyone 20 or older. It gives employers a choice: Either hire someone who is more likely to have previous relevant experience but has to be paid more, or higher a younger person who is less likely to have previous relevant experience but can be paid less. Oh, and then you have minimum wage indexed to inflation rather than set by statute, because the latter is stupid. Or the United States could dump the minimum wage culture, as very few people here earn right at the minimum wage. Most jobs for anyone 20 or older start at $20 per hour.

The minimum wage debate is so confusing and difficult, I really don't know where I stand on the issue. I can sympathize for how terrible it is to be making minimum wage but at the same time I'm not sure I agree that unskilled laborers need to be making $15/hr when they're just going to be hiring less people and cutting employees hours to compensate. I know veteran paramedics, critical-care certified, who make like $13.50 an hour. It seems absolutely mindblowing that McDonalds cashiers will be making the same amount of money as people that go through years of training and make life-saving decisions. [editline]20th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Cold;47759552]You can't just compress space and time to turn a job for 10 cashiers in to 5 cashiers. There is no such thing as qualified cashiers, after 2 weeks on the job, everybody works at the same rate. And there is certainly some borderline internship jobs and some stuff like serving jobs, where there is a longer learning curve and your argument makes sense, but that makes up a very small percentage of the minimum wage jobs.[/QUOTE] You definitely can turn 10 cashiers into 5 cashiers. Companies understaff all the time in nearly every industry. Whether it's efficient or a smart business choice is questionable, but there's almost no doubt that they will do it.

[QUOTE=srobins;47760247]The minimum wage debate is so confusing and difficult, I really don't know where I stand on the issue. I can sympathize for how terrible it is to be making minimum wage but at the same time I'm not sure I agree that unskilled laborers need to be making $15/hr when they're just going to be hiring less people and cutting employees hours to compensate. I know veteran paramedics, critical-care certified, who make like $13.50 an hour. It seems absolutely mindblowing that McDonalds cashiers will be making the same amount of money as people that go through years of training and make life-saving decisions.[/quote] I think this mentality is what holds back minimum wage the most. If a minimum wage increase leads to cashiers being paid the same as paramedics, the paramedics are going to create an uproar about it and the prospect of working as a paramedic compared to another job will diminish. So that may lead to insufficient supply of paramedics to meet how much they are demanded. The point is, is that to find and retain talent, the paramedics would eventually have to be paid more. Short term pain for long term gain. [quote]You definitely can turn 10 cashiers into 5 cashiers. Companies understaff all the time in nearly every industry. Whether it's efficient or a smart business choice is questionable, but there's almost no doubt that they will do it.[/QUOTE] Some jobs you can't just downscale the number of employees and think everything will go okay. One of the duties in my job is as part of nightfill. Most nights we get a fill load of about 2,000 cartons. As the bosses know they can't expect us to fill much faster than 55 cartons per hour (because we can only move so fast), that means a 2,000 carton load will require about 36 hours of fill-time, or 9 people working for 4 hours. Consider this: if you cut back the hours or number of people on the fill, the fill won't be finished and the shelves will be empty, but also what is left that wasn't finished will eventually need to be worked by someone anyways. So you may think, why not cut back on the size of the fill from 2,000 cartons to less? Well, then you have empty shelves the next morning, it means the business makes less money as there are less goods on sale, and customers begin shopping elsewhere, where they can find what they want. So in summary, you can't just scale back every job. Employees are employed not because they are wanted, they are employed because they are [i]needed[/i]. And all the above can translate to other occupations.

This is short term thinking

[QUOTE=Antdawg;47760319]Some jobs you can't just downscale the number of employees and think everything will go okay. One of the duties in my job is as part of nightfill. Most nights we get a fill load of about 2,000 cartons. As the bosses know they can't expect us to fill much faster than 55 cartons per hour (because we can only move so fast), that means a 2,000 carton load will require about 36 hours of fill-time, or 9 people working for 4 hours. Consider this: if you cut back the hours or number of people on the fill, the fill won't be finished and the shelves will be empty, but also what is left that wasn't finished will eventually need to be worked by someone anyways. So you may think, why not cut back on the size of the fill from 2,000 cartons to less? Well, then you have empty shelves the next morning, it means the business makes less money as there are less goods on sale, and customers begin shopping elsewhere, where they can find what they want. So in summary, you can't just scale back every job. Employees are employed not because they are wanted, they are employed because they are [i]needed[/i]. And all the above can translate to other occupations.[/QUOTE] In this case, you will see a raise in automation.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;47759235]Because some current minimum wage jobs arent worth more money per hour.[/QUOTE] How about this: If the job isn't worth minimum wage, then it isn't worth being done. If you think fast food is worthy of existing, then the people making it should get paid. Ironically all arguments against minimum wage increases just make the argument for Citizen's Income more attractive. [editline]19th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;47760410]In this case, you will see a raise in automation.[/QUOTE] Another solid argument for Citizens Income.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;47760410]In this case, you will see a raise in automation.[/QUOTE] For one, our minimum wage is indexed to inflation but we are also on an enterprise bargaining agreement which means we receive regular wage increases beyond the minimum wage. Only a few weeks ago we voted for our new agreement and so we continue to see a wage increase every year. It has been like this for a long time yet I don't see robots creeping in to the stockroom. Since I've started I've seen my pay go from $13.81 to $20.80 per hour yet I'm doing the exact same job as always. Two, where will the automation be? Robots packing the shelves? It is a long time away before a robot can do that same job cheaper or faster than a human can, decades at least. Not to forget there's a customer service component to the job.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;47760490]I'm not talking specifically fast food, I'm talking in general. Currently, entry level jobs are not worth minimum wage. They're just not! Minimum wage is a price floor, so the actual value of those jobs is below minimum wage. The further you get from the true value of labor will cause more shortages. ANY kind of price floor or ceiling is detrimental to the free market.[/QUOTE] I'm just using fast food jobs because they're the most common target by people arguing against minimum wage. Like I said, if the job isn't worth minimum wage, then it probably isn't worth employing someone for.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;47760490]I'm not talking specifically fast food, I'm talking in general. Currently, entry level jobs are not worth minimum wage. They're just not! Minimum wage is a price floor, so the actual value of those jobs is below minimum wage. The further you get from the true value of labor will cause more shortages. ANY kind of price floor or ceiling is detrimental to the free market, usually it's just a thing for politicians to trick people with. See: Rent control.[/QUOTE] The free market is detrimental to itself. That's why since the industrial revolution we've had things called regulations. Even neoliberals know this.

Why this? Why not figure out how to make cost of living go down?

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;47760490]I'm not talking specifically fast food, I'm talking in general. Currently, entry level jobs are not worth minimum wage. They're just not! Minimum wage is a price floor, so the actual value of those jobs is below minimum wage. The further you get from the true value of labor will cause more shortages. ANY kind of price floor or ceiling is detrimental to the free market, usually it's just a thing for politicians to trick people with. See: Rent control.[/QUOTE] if they weren't worth minimum wage then they wouldn't exist at all. they're at minimum wage because the workers have absolutely no leverage to demand higher wages, so the government steps in. these workers are completely expendable in the eyes of the company. if minimum wage didn't exist the companies would just pay less and the workers would suffer more.

[QUOTE=Dougz;47758664][url]http://bigstory.ap.org/article/86eb7cde7cdc4557a8ef10c5ed0a82cb/los-angeles-city-council-votes-15-minimum-wage[/url][/QUOTE] hue hue what is nominal tax

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;47760578]Would they though? Would people take a job that didn't pay enough?[/QUOTE] because everyone has bills to pay. making five dollars a day is better than making no dollars a day. also, welfare works differently in certain places, but there is generally an income cutoff iirc. so having a part time minimum wage job and living on welfare is better than just living on welfare.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;47760546]I guess I'm not a neoliberal then[/QUOTE] The American right is just something else compared to the right in Australia and Europe. Yes the market economy is a great thing but it is not flawless. Minimum wages are indeed a distortion but they achieve an important societal objective when the market fails - which can and does happen.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;47760593]What about 4 dollars? or 3? Would people really accept any price? I doubt anyone would work for a nickle an hour.[/QUOTE] why even think about it? underpaying someone so heavily is essentially exploitation either way. why does it matter what the bottom limit is, it's probably pretty low. you're justifying people living in wage slavery at this point.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;47760593]What about 4 dollars? or 3? Would people really accept any price? I doubt anyone would work for a nickle an hour.[/QUOTE] No you're right, but minimum wages especially when indexed put pressure on employers to maintain real wages relative to inflation. [editline]20th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=CrossTownNews;47760557]Why this? Why not figure out how to make cost of living go down?[/QUOTE] When cost of living goes down that is generally a sign of deflation and that is not a good thing, but saying that (about cost of living, not deflation), the U.S. could revise their income tax system for the benefit of the poorer people in society. For example here you don't pay income tax unless you earn at least $18,400 per year.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;47760578]Would they though? Would people take a job that didn't pay enough?[/QUOTE] What are they supposed to leverage off, when there are more people then there are jobs? Should we go back to the 1960ths where people strike because working conditions and wages are bad, just so the strike breakers can come in work for 2 months and then go on strike themselves and repeat that process indefinitely while the market provides no solution. Its too easy to abuse the market in some cases, and regulations like minimum wage are required. [editline]20th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=srobins;47760247] You definitely can turn 10 cashiers into 5 cashiers. Companies understaff all the time in nearly every industry. Whether it's efficient or a smart business choice is questionable, but there's almost no doubt that they will do it.[/QUOTE] You wouldn't be turning 10 into 5, you'd just be forcing your stores to be ran underemployed, providing worse services for both the consumer and the employer. And i am pretty sure short waiting lines, stocked products and customer service help selling your stuff, and that's a market competitive aspect of your store, if they have to wait 10 minutes in line people will go somewhere else. [editline]20th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=srobins;47760247]I know veteran paramedics, critical-care certified, who make like $13.50 an hour. It seems absolutely mindblowing that McDonalds cashiers will be making the same amount of money as people that go through years of training and make life-saving decisions. [/QUOTE] Most low-end wages are generally based of a percentage increase of the minimum wage. This only makes sense as the training/education required to do the job becomes less appealing when you could get a similar wage if you din't do it.

Big mistake, enjoy the cut hours and jobs. Shit I get paid $15 and hour and I work my ass off every day doing factory work only reason why I'm not too angry a kid will get paid as much as me is because I make a lot of overtime, if it wasn't for that though this would be total bullshit.

I guess I'm a bit bitter about this, only because I get paid 15/hr for high end video production and animation work, as well as some programming. However, I live in a place that has a pretty bad local economy. It's just weird thinking about someone flipping burgers making just as much. Also im sure the cost of living in LA is some of the highest in the US

[QUOTE=Glitchman;47763039]I guess I'm a bit bitter about this, only because I get paid 15/hr for high end video production and animation work, as well as some programming. However, I live in a place that has a pretty bad local economy. It's just weird thinking about someone flipping burgers making just as much. Also im sure the cost of living in LA is some of the highest in the US[/QUOTE] Except all skilled work that is currently above minimum wage will also be increased moved to still be above minimum wage. That's generally what happens when there are increases to minimum wage.

More than twice my states minimum wage of 7.25