HEMA/Historical Warfare v. 1 "Strike in and hasten forth; rush to, let it hit, or go by."
422 replies, posted
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Welcome to the HEMA/Historical Warfare thread! This thread is for anyone who studies HEMA, or for those who are interested in it. The "Historical warfare" attribution is there to invite people who in general wonders about, and want to discuss warfare throughout history, which I consider also relates to HEMA, since 1v1 fencing just gives us one part of the whole picture. So this thread will allow both discussions about the fights between the individuals on the battlefield, as well as strategies used on the larger scale.
[B]
What is HEMA?
[/B]
HEMA stands for Historical European Martial Arts and is collection of martial arts based around historical treatises found in Europe. The arts cover everything from military sabre in the 19th (and even 20th) century down to sword and buckler from the 13th century. The arts have been mostly forgotten during the late renaissance and industrial ages due to the popularity of firearms, but in the late 19th century an interest bloomed for this lost art. It would be another 100 years until actual organisations for the practice would start showing up.
Nowadays the number of HEMA practitioners are in the tens of thousands, and various tournaments are held annually all over the world (the sportification is also a topic for discussion!). Research progress is made on many fonts, and people are still finding new systems which to draw knowledge from.
[B]Resources[/B]
Almost all published (and publically available) treatises are archived on [URL="http://www.wiktenauer.com"]wiktenauer[/URL]
Find a local HEMA club here: [URL]http://www.communitywalk.com/user/view/81443[/URL]
Various articles on HEMA: [URL="http://www.hroarr.com"]www.hroarr.com[/URL]
[B]Media[/B]
Most of the following pictures is from my own club, the stockholm police fencing organisation (SPIFF in Sweden). We're based in Stockholm, so if you live in the vicinity and want to try it out, please visit us! It's free to try out for a few times. For more information on when we practice, visit our site: [URL="http://www.spiffaktning.se"]www.spiffaktning.se[/URL]
[img]https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/t31.0-8/11879231_895948127143551_9074687600877227180_o.jpg[/img]
[img]https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10014621_861823640556000_7617416509546308411_n.jpg?oh=a7ca39ab3f8512d00ef3a72783cb36f1&oe=5706203F[/img]
Here are some videos I took of a couple of sparring sessions:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiVum_EF3VQ[/media]
[media]https://youtu.be/JzoQhyR2Vdo[/media]
I'm wearing a white gambeson in the first one, and a black fencing jacket (and white shoes) in the second
Also, feel free to shamelessly plug your HEMA club in this thread the way I plugged mine, we need to know where we can find each other!
I think its cool that people are reviving HEMA. I'm not a fan of any particular interest, but it burns me a little when people think "martial arts" is something that only comes from Asia. Europe's history of warfare should be telling in and of itself, its just that knowledge was largely lost and not carried on through the industrialization of society etc.
I dont know much about HEMA myself, but I boxed for the better part of a decade and its interesting to learn that many of the principles in boxing (again something largely lost due to true teachers passing away and being replaced by "trainers" in gyms) come from historical fencing, another sport that has been diluted with time and a "sports" focus.
[img]http://ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2001/miscw01/art_of_fencing_2.gif[/img]
this looks suspiciously similar to theories on dominant angles of attack and footwork in modern boxing:
[img]http://assets1.tribesports.com/system/challenges/images/000/034/500/original/20130114201810-historical-fencing-footwork-challenge.jpg[/img]
Yes, modern pugilism certainly draws some parallels with duel fencing of the 16th century and onwards, of course if you ignore the obvious difference that in one of the systems you carry a sword...
Right now our club is going through the first treatise by Joachim Meyer, which is a dueling system for the longsword (but he also covered rapier and the dussack, which was his own creation). It's a terrific leg workout since he propagated that you should be as low in your guard as humanely possible, so that it becomes uncomfortable which encourages you to keep moving. Quite the work, but very rewarding!
You can read more about Meyer on Wiktenauer, which I linked in the OP.
What is the purpose of the longsword anyway? An axe and shield combo is much more efficient. The axe is hard hitting, sturdy, and there isn't much that can stop it. Almost as if it were a blend between a sword and a mace. Axes are also significantly cheaper than swords, and shields are much better for defence.
When the longsword was still in use on the battlefield, it had the huge advantage of versatility. In the hands of an armoured knight, it was an excellent tool to cut down footsoldiers, as well as wrestling other armoured knights. The half-swording techniques were actually a precursor to the later developed pollaxe.
A one-handed weapon with a shield is a robust choice, but utterly redundant if you have a protective plate armour, so it's understandable that it would be the footsoldiers choice of weaponry. However, axes weren't the most common weapon of medieval Europe, they belonged more to the Vikings.
[QUOTE=CommanderPT;47361345]What is the purpose of the longsword anyway? An axe and shield combo is much more efficient. The axe is hard hitting, sturdy, and there isn't much that can stop it. Almost as if it were a blend between a sword and a mace. Axes are also significantly cheaper than swords, and shields are much better for defence.[/QUOTE]
I don't think axe + shield would be a very effective against a longsword. Depending on the axe, you might need to be able to generate power to do any real damage (thrusts would be ineffective). So if the fella with the longsword could close in on your axe side, he's robbed you of a lot of power, your shield is worthless, and he can skewer you.
I do SCA heavy rapier and I fight with a Viking round shield. It's a lot of fun to fight with but it is a hindrance almost as much as a help. Someone fighting up close on the shield side is tough too, because you're effectively blind if the shield is in your way and it's tough to throw powerful shots across your body.
[editline]20th March 2015[/editline]
I have a friend who does HEMA proper who comes to our rapier practice sometimes. He's a lot of fun to fight. Historical styles in general are a lot of fun.
The way of dealing with shields in the Liecthenauer tradition is to either be completely on the side of the opponents sword or his shield, never inbetween. The purpose is that you either close off lines of attack, or that you use the longswords obvious advantages against a shorter weapon.
Some techniques or maybe even principles include the idea of locking the opponents weapon to his shield, and then moving in with pommeling or grappling. Maybe even striking if distance allows it.
[editline]20th March 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;47363217]I don't think axe + shield would be a very effective against a longsword. Depending on the axe, you might need to be able to generate power to do any real damage (thrusts would be ineffective). So if the fella with the longsword could close in on your axe side, he's robbed you of a lot of power, your shield is worthless, and he can skewer you.
I do SCA heavy rapier and I fight with a Viking round shield. It's a lot of fun to fight with but it is a hindrance almost as much as a help. Someone fighting up close on the shield side is tough too, because you're effectively blind if the shield is in your way and it's tough to throw powerful shots across your body.
[editline]20th March 2015[/editline]
I have a friend who does HEMA proper who comes to our rapier practice sometimes. He's a lot of fun to fight. Historical styles in general are a lot of fun.[/QUOTE]
But if you do heavy rapier in SCA, aren't you essentially doing renaissance rapier? I thought they sourced their material from there.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47363340]But if you do heavy rapier in SCA, aren't you essentially doing renaissance rapier? I thought they sourced their material from there.[/QUOTE]
Most do, but you can really do it any way you want. It's tough to do Viking with any real accuracy without percussive cuts, but I adapt what I can. I have a friend who also does Viking, another friend who does early Norman with a kit shield on the rapier field, and yet another who does a very cut-focused style with a curved blade as a Turkish Janissary persona. You can do some weird stuff, but we are a particularly weird group within rapier.
The Viking friend also brought a style over from her kingdom that's not a legal form here: unarmored. Very low armor requirements with synthetic blades. Includes percussive cuts. Great for longsword and I.33 etc. We fought that a lot, just not in any official SCA capacity. Now that the Norman friend is the baron of the barony we were all in and he quite liked unarmored, we're gonna try to get it pushed to be legalized as a fighting form in this kingdom.
Well, the better a fighter you are, the less protection you can use and consequentially that will also make you a better fighter.
The ARMA spars with steel longswords with minimal protection, and they are mostly doing fine in that regard.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOXg-NYxBE8[/media]
Our clubs instructor wants to do something similar starting next year, so I hope I can practice enough for it in time.
SCAdian here so i'm not sure if sca stuff belongs in this thread lol but i felt i should chip in.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;47379035]The Viking friend also brought a style over from her kingdom that's not a legal form here: unarmored. Very low armor requirements with synthetic blades. Includes percussive cuts. Great for longsword and I.33 etc. We fought that a lot, just not in any official SCA capacity. Now that the Norman friend is the baron of the barony we were all in and he quite liked unarmored, we're gonna try to get it pushed to be legalized as a fighting form in this kingdom.[/QUOTE]
we have similar things going on here in lochac. on one hand, larpish boffer-esque swords are starting to become popular with new comers due to the aspect of having minimal to no armour requirements. i think the idea of spending money and time getting your kit ready turns some people off.
on the other hand, our first female knight in lochac recently started doing some sort of mix between cut-and-thrust fencing and heavy at our biggest festival. from what i remember, it was heavy fighting but just with blunt steel weapons (basically something like armoured combat league) but they dabbled in historical armoured fighting towards the end of festival. imo most attempts in the sca that bring in more historical aspects is a good thing.
[editline]12th April 2015[/editline]
fight video because why not
[video=youtube;S-snVcmyazQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-snVcmyazQ[/video]
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47380938]Well, the better a fighter you are, the less protection you can use and consequentially that will also make you a better fighter.
The ARMA spars with steel longswords with minimal protection, and they are mostly doing fine in that regard.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOXg-NYxBE8[/media]
Our clubs instructor wants to do something similar starting next year, so I hope I can practice enough for it in time.[/QUOTE]
Honest question
Given that obviously at no point did the instinct to stab the other combatant through the gut, hack his head off or open his stomach and let his entrails spill, etc etc come to either combatant
How does this stay historically accurate and not just become a game of "lets clang our swords together"
[QUOTE=Dr.Critic;47509412]Honest question
Given that obviously at no point did the instinct to stab the other combatant through the gut, hack his head off or open his stomach and let his entrails spill, etc etc come to either combatant
How does this stay historically accurate and not just become a game of "lets clang our swords together"[/QUOTE]
it stays historically accurate by "following the teachings/manuals of X". being historically accurate=/=violently murder the other person as hard as you can. you can have two guys smack swords together and if that's what it says in X's manual/teachings/book dating back to 15whatever then it'd still historically accurate...just not an effective fencing system.
that said however, i'm not quite sure what the arma guys are doing. comments in the video are saying it looks meyer (i'm not sure). the very minimal amount of protection worn by the guys might have contributed to the fight not looking "aggressive" enough.
[editline]12th April 2015[/editline]
also it's important to note that these hema fights or even any fight in general looks very different to how media represents them. similar to how something like a fight scene from the raid looks nothing like the fights they have in the ufc.
stuff like "why don't you just stab the guy's guts out" or "chop his head off" is much easier said than done. besides, i don't know if you've seen all of the video but they do attempt cuts and thrusts aimed at the extremities, head and torso.
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;47509450]it stays historically accurate by "following the teachings/manuals of X". being historically accurate=/=violently murder the other person as hard as you can. you can have two guys smack swords together and if that's what it says in X's manual/teachings/book dating back to 15whatever then it'd still historically accurate...just not an effective fencing system.
that said however, i'm not quite sure what the arma guys are doing. comments in the video are saying it looks meyer (i'm not sure). the very minimal amount of protection worn by the guys might have contributed to the fight not looking "aggressive" enough.
[editline]12th April 2015[/editline]
also it's important to note that these hema fights or even any fight in general looks very different to how media represents them. similar to how something like a fight scene from the raid looks nothing like the fights they have in the ufc.
stuff like "why don't you just stab the guy's guts out" or "chop his head off" is much easier said than done. besides, i don't know if you've seen all of the video but they do attempt cuts and thrusts aimed at the extremities, head and torso.[/QUOTE]
I made the comment about Meyer. It's based on my own experience with Meyer fencing. Cuts from the langenort is very much something Meyer propagated, especially more so than Liechtenauer (and had it been Liechtenauer, it would probably be a bit more based on strikes rather than cuts. Also, it's worth noting Meyer taught dueling styles, and in a formal duel you would have to pay a huge ransom if you killed your opponent.
Also of course SCA'ers are welcome, as long as the thread stays active lol.
[editline]14th April 2015[/editline]
And as another note, it's clear that they're fighting with intent to hit each other, but on the flip side, they're both skilled at defending themselves.
As kimchi said, you just don't lop a head off, especially if they also got a sword.
Holy shit. Why was I not informed there was a HEMA thread on facepunch.
I'm participating in the NHFL Tournament in Copenhagen on saturday.
This will be my first tournament after only 7 months of fencing. So stoked.
[editline]15th April 2015[/editline]
Are you participating in the tournament, G-strogg?
[editline]15th April 2015[/editline]
Also. I'm part of the Axelved Historic Fencing Society club. It's a relatively small club with few active members, based in the southern part of Zeeland.
The club is busy as all hell though. We've got some big stuff coming up at the Copenhagen Rennaissance Fair, and even larger/more important stuff next year.
No, you won't see me there! I've only been training for nigh 3 years. I'll participate in Vasaslaget next year, however.
[editline]15th April 2015[/editline]
And on another note, our club recently "performed" at the stockholm medieval market in kungsträdgården. It was great fun, and someone was recording with a GoPro, so I will probably be putting up vids here in the near future.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47531996]No, you won't see me there! I've only been training for nigh 3 years. I'll participate in Vasaslaget next year, however.
[editline]15th April 2015[/editline]
And on another note, our club recently "performed" at the stockholm medieval market in kungsträdgården. It was great fun, and someone was recording with a GoPro, so I will probably be putting up vids here in the near future.[/QUOTE]
What about Swordfish then?
We're doing the same in Copenhagen, although not only will we have workshops, learning people a bit about fencing.
We will also have horses, and learn people fencing techniques from horseback.
Horses? That sounds awesome, I'll have to visit sometime.
And no, I won't be in the swordfish, but maybe next year if I perform well in Vasaslaget. I don't think I'll enjoy competitions too much.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47534742]Horses? That sounds awesome, I'll have to visit sometime.
And no, I won't be in the swordfish, but maybe next year if I perform well in Vasaslaget. I don't think I'll enjoy competitions too much.[/QUOTE]
You definetly should! We're also going to France with said horses for a tournament there.
Well, I'm not planning on fencing in Swordfish either (Unless I get far enough to qualify on saturday, though I doubt I will get that far.)
But I will still go there, since you can learn a lot just by watching people fencing.
I might even be lucky enough to fence against Axel Peterson on saturday. :v:
So. This weekends tournament was a ton of fun. And hard as shit. Haha.
I also did better than I expected. I ended my pool with 1 victory, 1 tie and 2 losses.
Considering I've only fenced for 7 months I am quite satisfied with the results.
I almost qualified for the elimination rounds too.
As a bonus I made 2 swedes mad (including Axel Peterson). Because I won my bout against the person (who was a swede) who was considered the best fencer in my pool. :v:
I made my tutor proud, and got some compliments from some dutch guys. Which I'm happy about
Would HEMA involve things like classical period works or is that something different?
I understand that most of it deals with fencing/longsword type combat, but is there anything involving something like the phalanx?
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;47564070]Would HEMA involve things like classical period works or is that something different?
I understand that most of it deals with fencing/longsword type combat, but is there anything involving something like the phalanx?[/QUOTE]
Do you mean like the formation? Sadly this is underrepresented in the competitive forms of HEMA, where the duel fencing is the most prominent (and it will probably stay this way, sadly). However, I will head to a "tactical camp" in germany this autumn where the focus will be on formation fighting. We're hoping for at least a 100 or more attending.
[editline]20th April 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sunkite;47564047]So. This weekends tournament was a ton of fun. And hard as shit. Haha.
I also did better than I expected. I ended my pool with 1 victory, 1 tie and 2 losses.
Considering I've only fenced for 7 months I am quite satisfied with the results.
I almost qualified for the elimination rounds too.
As a bonus I made 2 swedes mad (including Axel Peterson). Because I won my bout against the person (who was a swede) who was considered the best fencer in my pool. :v:
I made my tutor proud, and got some compliments from some dutch guys. Which I'm happy about[/QUOTE]
Well done! Maybe it's time for me to seriously look at a competition.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47564439]Do you mean like the formation? Sadly this is underrepresented in the competitive forms of HEMA, where the duel fencing is the most prominent (and it will probably stay this way, sadly). However, I will head to a "tactical camp" in germany this autumn where the focus will be on formation fighting. We're hoping for at least a 100 or more attending.
[editline]20th April 2015[/editline]
Well done! Maybe it's time for me to seriously look at a competition.[/QUOTE]
Thank you!
You should! With 3 years of fencing experience I'd imagine you would do rather well in a tournament.
It is a thing you have to experience, after that you'll figure out if tournaments is something for you or not.
If we do end up going to the same tournaments/medieval fairs, I'd say we should have a sparring match for the fun of it.
[editline]20th April 2015[/editline]
Also, wouldn't formation fighting be more of an reenactment/Battle of the Nations thing?
[editline]20th April 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;47564070]
I understand that most of it deals with fencing/longsword type combat, but is there anything involving something like the phalanx?[/QUOTE]
HEMA is in general the duel aspect of combat. It is not limited to longswords, rapiers or arming swords.
We also learn how to fight with daggers (which is really fun) in my HEMA club. Spears should also be introduced at one point and we're also working on making some safe axes to train with.
Battle of the Nations has just about nothing to do with anything historical. It's probably fun for the people who do it, but they are not basing anything on the treatises.
As for reenactors, sure, but while they do follow some historical manuals on how certain formations were done, they usually do not experiment with actually seeing why certain formations were the way they where, since reenacted battles are usually coreographed.
While I'm still not entirely sure about the details of the tactical camp, I know it will have an historical backdrop in the form of King Richard of England returning home from the crusades, and being ambushed by Leopold V of Austria.
The excercise involves learning of formations used at the time (including a very early variant of Fire and Movement) and a 12 hour march while just waiting to be ambushed. I guess it could kind of border on reenactment territory, but I know a lot of the usual participants practice HEMA and the person who invited me (our old instructor) is one of the pioneers, he's been doing this for more than 20 years.
So ultimately I guess I won't find out until after if I really like it or not, but it sure sounds like great fun. Several of the club members are going.
[editline]21st April 2015[/editline]
Also, good on you to catch my typo, meant to say 2 years...
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;47564070]Would HEMA involve things like classical period works or is that something different?
I understand that most of it deals with fencing/longsword type combat, but is there anything involving something like the phalanx?[/QUOTE]
like sunkite said, hema generally deals with the dueling aspect of historical combat because it's generally the easiest thing to do. hema also relies upon historical documents such as treatises/manuals or else otherwise it starts to lean upon historical speculation. this is why most of hema combat is generally 14th century and beyond. documents for later century stuff like military sabre is easier to find than sword and shield in which there are very very few.
also stuff like a phalanx would be harder to organise than a couple of dudes swinging swords at each other. if you meant something like alexander's macedonian phalanx, where you have pikes that reach around 6 metres and a 8 men deep formation, it becomes harder and harder to organise and train in. sure you could have a couple of dudes with sticks and dumpster lids stand next each other but then it strays away from historical side. it also gets more expensive and dangerous which is why historical reenactment groups don't necessarily fight historically but instead only look historical.
[editline]21st April 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sunkite;47564047]So. This weekends tournament was a ton of fun. And hard as shit. Haha.
I also did better than I expected. I ended my pool with 1 victory, 1 tie and 2 losses.
Considering I've only fenced for 7 months I am quite satisfied with the results.
I almost qualified for the elimination rounds too.
As a bonus I made 2 swedes mad (including Axel Peterson). Because I won my bout against the person (who was a swede) who was considered the best fencer in my pool. :v:
I made my tutor proud, and got some compliments from some dutch guys. Which I'm happy about[/QUOTE]
congrats on your tournament. i don't even do hema longsword and i still think it'd be amazing if i pissed off axel petterson for being too good.
[IMG]http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--WQl6Z7IT--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/aoagc1lf7nzr4hv4csg0.gif[/IMG]
Thanks for answering my question, I appreciate it.
I've always had a deep seated appreciation for HEMA, and I really love the way that its performed and how it really shows how fast (and arguably brutal) combat was before the days of the gun.
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;47566534]
congrats on your tournament. i don't even do hema longsword and i still think it'd be amazing if i pissed off axel petterson for being too good.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you!
Haha, yeah. That is definetly one of the highlights from the tournaments.
The videos of the finals from the tournament is up if you guys wanna see them.
Lemme see if I can dig them out.
[editline]21st April 2015[/editline]
Found them. First one is the bout for the third place.
[video=youtube;aZ4GhDKRUOc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ4GhDKRUOc[/video]
And the finals.
[video=youtube;lm7ri3JhBlQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm7ri3JhBlQ[/video]
[QUOTE=Sunkite;47564781]Thank you!
You should! With 3 years of fencing experience I'd imagine you would do rather well in a tournament.
It is a thing you have to experience, after that you'll figure out if tournaments is something for you or not.
If we do end up going to the same tournaments/medieval fairs, I'd say we should have a sparring match for the fun of it.
[editline]20th April 2015[/editline]
Also, wouldn't formation fighting be more of an reenactment/Battle of the Nations thing?
[editline]20th April 2015[/editline]
HEMA is in general the duel aspect of combat. It is not limited to longswords, rapiers or arming swords.
We also learn how to fight with daggers (which is really fun) in my HEMA club. Spears should also be introduced at one point and we're also working on making some safe axes to train with.[/QUOTE]
Let me guess, was the other one Anders Linnard?
[editline]21st April 2015[/editline]
Also I'm sorry if my previous post about reenactment was generalising, I know there are more than a few groups that actually try out the tactics "live", as in with no predetermined winner.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47568182]Let me guess, was the other one Anders Linnard?
[editline]21st April 2015[/editline]
Also I'm sorry if my previous post about reenactment was generalising, I know there are more than a few groups that actually try out the tactics "live", as in with no predetermined winner.[/QUOTE]
Nope, some younger person. Believe his last name was Linus or something along the lines of that.
I highly doubt I'd be able to fence and win a bout against Anders Linnard. He's impressive. Ended as number 2. With Matthy Kool being the winner.
Ah, well I was just guessing.
I was also surprised at the low amount of injuries, the most severe injury was actually one of the medics taking a car door to the back of his head :v:
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