[I]President said economics, law, law enforcement is solution[/I]
[quote]CARTAGENA, Colombia — President Barack Obama says legalizing drug use is not the answer to trafficking in illegal narcotics in the Americas, countering a growing chorus in Latin America to discuss decriminalization as a way to ease deadly cartel violence.
Obama says he is open to having a debate about legalization but he doesn't believe it will lead to an agreement to legalize drugs.
Obama was speaking to an assembly of top executives from the hemisphere as part of the sixth Summit of the Americas here.
The president said the answer to the drug cartels is societies that have strong economics, rules of law, and a law enforcement infrastructure that is sound. He said the responsibility also rests with countries that are big destinations for the drugs to reduce demand for illegal narcotics.[/quote]
[url=http://www.policeone.com/drug-interdiction-narcotics/articles/5408250-Obama-Drug-legalization-not-answer-to-cartels/]Source[/url]
[quote]The president said the answer to the drug cartels is societies that have strong economics, rules of law, and a law enforcement infrastructure that is sound. He said the responsibility also rests with countries that are big destinations for the drugs to reduce demand for illegal narcotics.
[We are] not going to debate here whether we should legalize certain drugs or not. That's been done often enough[/quote]
oh, you mean the solution that has obviously been working for the past thirty odd years or so
brilliant, really
rate dumb if you honestly think that prohibition doesn't foster organized crime, fearmongering, and unjustifiable loss of human life
u gotta have a war against it otherwise its not epic!!!
Of course it wouldn't solve the problems. In fact, that argument has been run so far into the ground that those who do support legalization rarely use it. (Unless you're an idiot) The Cartels already have such a strong influence that knocking out one source of income will only strengthen their other endeavors. It may sound radical and I know a lot of you would disagree; but I feel the only way to stop the cartels (At least the Mexico based ones) is by use of special military forces. Mexico's law enforcement isn't going to do the job, and even if they tried it wouldn't even make a dent.
[QUOTE=Obama]He said the responsibility also rests with countries that are big destinations for the drugs to reduce demand for illegal narcotics.[/QUOTE]
You can't reduce demand for illegal drugs. If that were the case, our ridiculously over-budgeted DEA would've been effective and total usage would've dropped, rather than increased. All legal means do is increase the risk associated with meeting demand, it does nothing to actually reduce the demand itself.
What would actually reduce demand for [I]illegal[/I] narcotics would be legal alternatives to those narcotics. That is what the problem is, right, Obama? That's why you said [I]illegal[/I] narcotics as opposed to legal ones, right? I mean, if those cartels suddenly had to start competing with huge quantities of legitimate businesses, that would seriously reduce their power, would it not?
That's strange, because this is just an echo of what happened with prohibition in the 20s. The mob lost tons of money after alcohol was made legal again, I fail to see how this is any different.
I mean obviously it didn't kill the mob and this won't kill the cartel. But it's a HUGE blow to the funding for their operations.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35570990]Of course it wouldn't solve the problems. In fact, that argument has been run so far into the ground that those who do support legalization rarely use it. (Unless you're an idiot) The Cartels already have such a strong influence that knocking out one source of income will only strengthen their other endeavors.[/QUOTE]
How does reducing income strengthen an organization? If they have <non-drug income> + <drug income>, and they can do so many things, then when they only have <non-drug income>, they can do fewer things.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35570990]It may sound radical and I know a lot of you would disagree; but I feel the only way to stop the cartels (At least the Mexico based ones) is by use of special military forces. Mexico's law enforcement isn't going to do the job, and even if they tried it wouldn't even make a dent.[/QUOTE]
we've already done this
we've been training Mexico's special forces for years, and it's been demonstrably proven that a frightening percentage of Mexican soldiers end up getting recruited by the cartels themselves because they get offered much higher wages than the government offers
so now the cartels have paramilitary forces in their ranks. The cartels aren't just gangs like everyone seems to think, they're quite literally small armies
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35570990]Of course it wouldn't solve the problems. In fact, that argument has been run so far into the ground that those who do support legalization rarely use it. (Unless you're an idiot) The Cartels already have such a strong influence that knocking out one source of income will only strengthen their other endeavors. It may sound radical and I know a lot of you would disagree; but I feel the only way to stop the cartels (At least the Mexico based ones) is by use of special military forces. Mexico's law enforcement isn't going to do the job, and even if they tried it wouldn't even make a dent.[/QUOTE]
Already being done, it's not working.
[QUOTE=garrynohome;35571010]That's strange, because this is just an echo of what happened with prohibition in the 20s. The mob lost tons of money after alcohol was made legal again, I fail to see how this is any different.
I mean obviously it didn't kill the mob and this won't kill the cartel. But it's a HUGE blow to the funding for their operations.[/QUOTE]
yup. the reason why we haven't heard anything about big chicago mobsters since the 30s is simply because prohibition ended.
we should at least legalize cannabis and hemp products, and have the government regulate it... who's going to buy from cartels when they can buy it legally from the government? especially if it's offered at prices that undercut the cartels'. obviously, marijuana isn't their only source of income, but it is one of their biggest ones, and it would severely weaken the cartels' power
the new, flourishing cannabis and hemp industries would be an enormous contribution to the economy, along with the billions in tax revenue the government would be raking in
solve the defecit with weed
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35570990]Of course it wouldn't solve the problems. In fact, that argument has been run so far into the ground that those who do support legalization rarely use it. (Unless you're an idiot) The Cartels already have such a strong influence that knocking out one source of income will only strengthen their other endeavors. It may sound radical and I know a lot of you would disagree; but I feel the only way to stop the cartels (At least the Mexico based ones) is by use of special military forces. Mexico's law enforcement isn't going to do the job, and even if they tried it wouldn't even make a dent.[/QUOTE]
It wouldn't end it, but I fail to see how it wouldn't be beneficial in any way. How has that argument been run into the ground.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;35571052]How does reducing income strengthen an organization? If they have <non-drug income> + <drug income>, and they can do so many things, then when they only have <non-drug income>, they can do fewer things.[/QUOTE]
Drug money is only one slice of a very large pie that makes up the profits made by the Cartels. There are many other ventures they webbed out into, such as; Gun running, human trafficking, hired killing, extortion, and many other illegal activities.
[QUOTE=Furioso;35571083]yup. the reason why we haven't heard anything about big chicago mobsters since the 30s is simply because prohibition ended.
we should at least legalize cannabis and hemp products, and have the government regulate it... who's going to buy from cartels when they can buy it legally from the government? especially if it's offered at prices that undercut the cartels'. obviously, marijuana isn't their only source of income, but it is one of their biggest ones, and it would severely weaken the cartels' power
the new, flourishing cannabis and hemp industries would be an enormous contribution to the economy, along with the billions in tax revenue the government would be raking in
solve the defecit with weed[/QUOTE]
Can I just say, never mind the price difference, with the government there's no risk that someones gonna have put glass fragments in the weed as it grows so it looks more crystalline.
Besides it'll be stronger stuff so of course folk will buy that over the shit the cartels churn out, and above all that, people would rather keep their money out the hands of the cartels cause they're arseholes and put it in the hands of the government.
They will never beat drugs.
[QUOTE=garrynohome;35571010]That's strange, because this is just an echo of what happened with prohibition in the 20s. The mob lost tons of money after alcohol was made legal again, I fail to see how this is any different.
I mean obviously it didn't kill the mob and this won't kill the cartel. But it's a HUGE blow to the funding for their operations.[/QUOTE]
The mob lost tons of money but then they delved further into other things. It's not like at the end of prohibition organized crime just died; in fact, it got stronger. They branched into extortion, politics, casinos, drugs, and other activities that were considered profitable.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35571132]Drug money is only one slice of a very large pie that makes up the profits made by the Cartels. There are many other ventures they webbed out into, such as; Gun running, human trafficking, hired killing, extortion, and many other illegal activities.[/QUOTE]
"well, since we can't put a dent in all their sources of income, we shouldn't even try to put a dent in their biggest one. fuck it, right?"
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35570990]Of course it wouldn't solve the problems. In fact, that argument has been run so far into the ground that those who do support legalization rarely use it. (Unless you're an idiot) The Cartels already have such a strong influence that knocking out one source of income will only strengthen their other endeavors. It may sound radical and I know a lot of you would disagree; but I feel the only way to stop the cartels (At least the Mexico based ones) is by use of special military forces. Mexico's law enforcement isn't going to do the job, and even if they tried it wouldn't even make a dent.[/QUOTE]
The Los Zeta's at the very least are ex military.
They're not going to be fucked over by a simple military fight. It's the same as guerrila warfare. You'll never win if you go in the jungle. Having a convential war is going to make things worse. You have to play attrition and starve them out. How is legalization NOT an option?
He doesn't think it will work. Doesn't mean he can't be convinced.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35571155]The mob lost tons of money but then they delved further into other things. It's not like at the end of prohibition organized crime just died; in fact, it got stronger. They branched into extortion, politics, casinos, drugs, and other activities that were considered profitable.[/QUOTE]
Yep. But they eventually got weakened enough that they're an almost defunct organization now.
Wow, that was a TOTAL failure.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35571155]The mob lost tons of money but then they delved further into other things. It's not like at the end of prohibition organized crime just died; in fact, it got stronger. They branched into extortion, politics, casinos, drugs, and other activities that were considered profitable.[/QUOTE]
crime will always exist
period
the mob isn't as big of an issue as it was in the early 20th century because they simply can't make the kind of profits that they did in the 20s... by profiting from prohibition.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35571132]Drug money is only one slice of a very large pie that makes up the profits made by the Cartels. There are many other ventures they webbed out into, such as; Gun running, human trafficking, hired killing, extortion, and many other illegal activities.[/QUOTE]
We shouldn't fix a component, because it won't be all we need to do to fix the problem? What a terrible argument. It's also apparently the argument the President is using, and that's depressing.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35571155]The mob lost tons of money but then they delved further into other things. It's not like at the end of prohibition organized crime just died; in fact, it got stronger. They branched into extortion, politics, casinos, drugs, and other activities that were considered profitable.[/QUOTE]
Yup, and the mob still died off. You kind of tried to ignore that part but I'm pretty sure everyone here has noticed that the mob doesn't control Chicago anymore, or even really exist in Chicago at all. Good try though.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;35571160]How is legalization NOT an option?[/QUOTE]
because he's probably a product of DARE and the bullshit propaganda that it brainwashed a staggering amount of people with. any solution that relates to being lenient on drugs = wrong in every way ever
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35571155]The mob lost tons of money but then they delved further into other things. It's not like at the end of prohibition organized crime just died; in fact, it got stronger. They branched into extortion, politics, casinos, drugs, and other activities that were considered profitable.[/QUOTE]
The mob was already deep into extortion and such before prohibition, that's how they got the contacts and managed to divert the eye of the law away from their actions in the first place.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;35571181]Yep. But they eventually got weakened enough that they're an almost defunct organization now.
Wow, that was a TOTAL failure.[/QUOTE]
To be honest the mobs aren't as big now simply because they didn't adapt well enough and they got out classed by the cartels.
Although I imagine that they're still clinging on in some places in some form.
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;35571139]Can I just say, never mind the price difference, with the government there's no risk that someones gonna have put glass fragments in the weed as it grows so it looks more crystalline.
Besides it'll be stronger stuff so of course folk will buy that over the shit the cartels churn out, and above all that, people would rather keep their money out the hands of the cartels cause they're arseholes and put it in the hands of the government.[/QUOTE]
People act as if Cartels are the only source of production for drugs; weed especially. That's simply not the case; in fact, the Cartels are much more into Methamphetamine than weed nowadays. Most weed has become localized making it cheaper since it's not run across the boarder and transported extremely far north. The ease of Grow-Ops has lowered the profits of Cartel weed.
[editline]14th April 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=garrynohome;35571202]Yup, and the mob still died off. You kind of tried to ignore that part but I'm pretty sure everyone here has noticed that the mob doesn't control Chicago anymore, or even really exist in Chicago at all. Good try though.[/QUOTE]
Actually no, the mob hasn't died off, it's just gone much more silent over the years. Just look at places like Las Vegas, it's heavily mob controlled, and I had a family friend who was a Cappo in a Las Vegas family. Just because it's not reported nightly on the news doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
[QUOTE=Furioso;35571083]yup. the reason why we haven't heard anything about big chicago mobsters since the 30s is simply because prohibition ended.
we should at least legalize cannabis and hemp products, and have the government regulate it... who's going to buy from cartels when they can buy it legally from the government? especially if it's offered at prices that undercut the cartels'. obviously, marijuana isn't their only source of income, but it is one of their biggest ones, and it would severely weaken the cartels' power
the new, flourishing cannabis and hemp industries would be an enormous contribution to the economy, along with the billions in tax revenue the government would be raking in
solve the defecit with weed[/QUOTE]
The cartels and the mob are incomparable in scale. The mob at least had certain morals - there are things that they would not do. The cartels are brutal, they stay in power by being the biggest, best armed and trained and most violent towards those who oppose them. If government officials don't accept bribes and go without bodyguards, they'll be found butchered on the side of a road or have their families abducted or killed, the cartels have no limits.
The mob was armed, sure, but the cartels are an army - they have modern weapons and the training to use them effectively. Many of the Los Zetas and some members of other cartels are military defectors.
The mob ended when prohibition ended, but the cartels won't, they're too large. You think that legalising cannabis would weaken them? It'll reduce their income, sure, but the cartel has ways of dealing with that. They'll still be wanted for murder and all of their various past crimes, so going legit is no option, so they'll embark on a campaign of terror - domestic bombings on both US and Mexican soil, especially at legal dealers and legal growers, to scare others out of the business.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35571220]People act as if Cartels are the only source of production for drugs; weed especially. That's simply not the case; in fact, the Cartels are much more into Methamphetamine than weed nowadays. Most weed has become localized making it cheaper since it's not run across the boarder and transported extremely far north. The ease of Grow-Ops has lowered the profits of Cartel weed.[/QUOTE]
According to Wikipedia, because I'm about to leave and have no time looking for potentially better sources, half of their income is from cannabis alone: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War#Drug_sources_and_use[/url]
Even if it did get legalised in the USA, they can still sell it in other countries.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;35571160]The Los Zeta's at the very least are ex military.
They're not going to be fucked over by a simple military fight. It's the same as guerrila warfare. You'll never win if you go in the jungle. Having a convential war is going to make things worse. You have to play attrition and starve them out. How is legalization NOT an option?[/QUOTE]
Because even if a drug as small as marijuana was legalized it wouldn't dent the Cartels. (Mind you I support the legalization of Marijuana) The problem is that the US Government will never ever legalize hard drugs such as Meth, Cocaine, Heroine, etc simply because of their damaging properties. Cartel money is made in Meth and hard drugs; marijuana isn't their only source of drug income. As I said in another post, Cartel weed isn't as prominent now because of localized Grow-Ops. If Cartel weed was one of the few sources weed prices would be through the rood; but I can get a good nug or two for about $20.00 in Atlanta, Georgia.
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