Alright, so everyone who has flown on an airplane before knows that "all electronic devices" must be shut off during take off/landing, and the very few of us who have not flown probably know of this "rule" that the airlines enforce. After traveling over the holidays and discussing/debating this with my family and friends, I thought it would be a good topic of discussion. My take on it is as follows:
If it is so extremely dangerous to use electronics during take off and landing, so dangerous being that it compromises the safety of the plane and everyone on board, they wouldn't allow us to have electronics at all. Now I am well aware that all electronic devices emit a unique electromagnetic pulse, and that it is possible for this pulse to interfere with some of the very delicate electronic instruments used on the plane. However, my concern is that this interference is so small that it could not possibly disrupt the flight or the safety of the plane and everyone on board. So the question comes to, why do they enforce this rule in the first place? A good buddy of mine who's mother has worked for Delta Airlines for about 20 years insists that they do this so you pay attention to the stewardess who is going through all of the safety procedures. I have a hard time believing this. What do you think Facepunch?
It isn't dangerous at all, I do it all the time.
[editline]31st December 2011[/editline]
It's just a really over-cautious rule
Better safe than sorry
If you have 200 wireless devices on a plane in a very concentrated area, you'll most certainly get interference on more sensitive devices, such as ones in the cockpit. As such, one person with a phone turned on probably wouldn't do much, but if they didn't have this rule, everyone would leave their phones on, and suddenly radio communications for the pilots becomes increasingly unreliable
[editline]31st December 2011[/editline]
Oh and the electronic devices that aren't wireless are safe to keep on, but some people are just stupid enough to not know how to turn off the wireless features. Yes, those people exist!
Also they don't like you to use iPods and such because they want to make sure you hear the announcements. Specifically, "brace" :v:
I hate how people can read books during takeoff, but I can't read my Kindle.
I remember when I was on a plane, And during takeoff, I was on my iphone. I politely told the flight attendant that it was on airline mode. Before I could finish my sentence, She cut me off and said "sir, please just turn it off." Shit pisses me off.
[quote]I had the luck of sitting next to a pilot on my flight home from LA and asked him this very question. He said the equipment that passengers use doesn't actually interfere with the plane's instruments. He said the reason they didn't allow electronic devices on during take off and landing was because the FAA and FCC didn't want to spend millions on testing each piece of electronic equipment a passenger takes on board an aircraft. That would be a lot of testing and lots of money wasted, so the easiest solution is to ban all electronics during that time.[/quote]
[editline]31st December 2011[/editline]
[quote]As the son of an engineer who designed the communications systems on planes, it is because of the frequencies shared once upon a time. 2.4-5.4Ghz spread. Now that FAA and the FCC have subjugated their own frequencies it is no longer required for electronics to be turned off. It was explained to me years ago by a cheif engineer, The reason they make you turn everything off is so your focused on the most important and dangerous parts of the flight, take off and landing, if you are babbling away or texting, at a crucial moment you could be distracted from reacting and saving your own life. It also keeps people aware of their surrounding in case they see something go wrong they can report it right away. Lastly the form of control, keeping everyone focused on watching the emergency information before each flight. Simply put its a way for the airlines to keep the people in the miraculously flying tube in check.[/quote]
[QUOTE=ITokez;33978036]I remember when I was on a plane, And during takeoff, I was on my iphone. I politely told the flight attendant that it was on airline mode. Before I could finish my sentence, She cut me off and said "sir, please just turn it off." Shit pisses me off.[/QUOTE]
Flight attendants do what is asked of them by their bosses, they don't have time to argue with people who don't follow the rules because doing so holds up the fucking flight. She wasn't being rude, she just wanted to get everyone to their destination on time. YOU were being rude by not following instructions.
It's not that much of an inconvenience, now is it?
a
I can understand why it would piss you off, mostly because flight attendants don't even know the reason why they have to be turned off they just do as they are told. But you can always pull the "im just wearing earphones its not plugged into anything" stunt and get away with it every time.
As Jaanus quoted, the only real reason they do this is to keep passengers focused during critical portions of a flight. As far as interference with navigational equipment etc, I use my phone all the time to receive weather from airports that are out of my radio range and have never experienced anything abnormal. I've even taken calls through my headset (it has Bluetooth capability).
[editline]31st December 2011[/editline]
i love when people ask questions about airplanes
[QUOTE=srroesl;33980266]
i love when people ask questions about airplanes[/QUOTE]
What do they do if both of the pilots pass out/become unable to fly? Does a hero stand out from all the passengers and claim he can fly the plane with his flight simulator hours, while he safely flies the plane to the ground with the help of flight control?
Having read the more 'bulky' replies to this thread about frequency bands and cabin attendants doing as their bosses were told, I thought I'd put my own view into the mix as it elaborates somewhat on what others have said.
In the spirit of open discussion..
[QUOTE=Nlogax;33977729]
If it is so extremely dangerous to use electronics during take off and landing, so dangerous being that it compromises the safety of the plane and everyone on board, they wouldn't allow us to have electronics at all.[/QUOTE]
I'd have to disagree.
You see, takeoff and landing are the most sensitive stages of flight an aircraft can undertake. They are the stages when flight crew are most acutely tuned to their instruments, their aircraft and the environment outside, as well as the most highly loaded portion of their job in terms of stress, workload and the requirement for teamwork. I hope my emphasis here can truly be heard as the same applies for aircraft systems. On takeoff for example, many airports offer a DME service ([URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance_measuring_equipment[/URL]) which would tie in to a standard instrument departure, whereby for an aircraft to depart that airfield in accordance with local and national aviation law, it must follow a specific lateral and vertical flightpath. Whilst it is true that the standard GSM band would not interfere by itself with the DME marker, the buildup of electric interference could - loosely in theory - change a received 1 to a 0 and cause both flight crew and aircraft to misinterpret information, and therefore put the lives of everyone onboard and on the ground at risk. Landing can be expressed in a similar fashion, except (arguably) the levels of workload can be [I]much[/I] higher.
To demonstrate the importance of aircraft systems on landing and/or approach there is a little known fact which non-industry folk may not know about. Airlines are encouraging flight crew to use CATIII autoland ([URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland[/URL]) in the interest of safety. It is my belief is you fly ten times in a week, 7 out of those 10 landings will be conducted by George, with the remaining 3 being assisted either visually or with autothrottle control by the aircraft systems.
Like I've previously said, the GSM band could not by itself cause any of these systems to fail, or cause interference. But a build up of traffic from any electrical device [I]could[/I] cause issues, the airlines around the world ask you to turn it off regardless. None have done any testing like said earlier in this thread, and for that reason, they just blanket the idea.
And personally I think that's very sensible and I have no issue in doing it. At an airport like London Heathrow, where there is housing both in the direction of arriving and departing aircraft, I would not like to be the first officer that gets fed wrong information or has his autopilot disconnect on a foggy, windy and low visibility day 2 miles out and at 750ft, just because his crew did not ask passengers to turn off their devices.
[QUOTE=Jaanus;33978086][editline]31st December 2011[/editline][/QUOTE]
The CAA have a similar way of doing things, except they say that electrical equipment must be turned off for the duration of the flight, normally.
The effects are actually not really known, but they just play safe, considering that a single loose bolt can cause an air plane crash. (too much NGC Air Crash investigation)
Also during takeoff and landing, there's no time to fix things if something goes wrong...
It's not even a big deal to turn electronics off so I do it.
[QUOTE=doomkiwi;33978156]Flight attendants do what is asked of them by their bosses, they don't have time to argue with people who don't follow the rules because doing so holds up the fucking flight. She wasn't being rude, she just wanted to get everyone to their destination on time. YOU were being rude by not following instructions.[/QUOTE]
you're right, I'm a stupid little cunt for holding up the flight by checking my email. me using my phone delays the entire flight until I put my phone away. Its not like I couldn't just pull it out when she was walking away (I did). I missed the important safety demo that I have seen dozens of times before. people like me are the scum of the earth. ~so badass~~
[quote=runtime]
I'd have to disagree.
You see, takeoff and landing are the most sensitive stages of flight an aircraft can undertake. They are the stages when flight crew are most acutely tuned to their instruments, their aircraft and the environment outside, as well as the most highly loaded portion of their job in terms of stress, workload and the requirement for teamwork. I hope my emphasis here can truly be heard as the same applies for aircraft systems. On takeoff for example, many airports offer a DME service ([URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance_measuring_equipment[/URL]) which would tie in to a standard instrument departure, whereby for an aircraft to depart that airfield in accordance with local and national aviation law, it must follow a specific lateral and vertical flightpath. Whilst it is true that the standard GSM band would not interfere by itself with the DME marker, the buildup of electric interference could - loosely in theory - change a received 1 to a 0 and cause both flight crew and aircraft to misinterpret information, and therefore put the lives of everyone onboard and on the ground at risk. Landing can be expressed in a similar fashion, except (arguably) the levels of workload can be [I]much[/I] higher.
To demonstrate the importance of aircraft systems on landing and/or approach there is a little known fact which non-industry folk may not know about. Airlines are encouraging flight crew to use CATIII autoland ([URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland[/URL]) in the interest of safety. It is my belief is you fly ten times in a week, 7 out of those 10 landings will be conducted by George, with the remaining 3 being assisted either visually or with autothrottle control by the aircraft systems.
Like I've previously said, the GSM band could not by itself cause any of these systems to fail, or cause interference. But a build up of traffic from any electrical device [I]could[/I] cause issues, the airlines around the world ask you to turn it off regardless. None have done any testing like said earlier in this thread, and for that reason, they just blanket the idea.
And personally I think that's very sensible and I have no issue in doing it. At an airport like London Heathrow, where there is housing both in the direction of arriving and departing aircraft, I would not like to be the first officer that gets fed wrong information or has his autopilot disconnect on a foggy, windy and low visibility day 2 miles out and at 750ft, just because his crew did not ask passengers to turn off their devices.
The CAA have a similar way of doing things, except they say that electrical equipment must be turned off for the duration of the flight, normally.[/QUOTE]
So if it's so dangerous that I could crash the plane with enough people using cell phones during take off/landing on board, then you're saying that me and my group of 10 terrorist friends or so could crash the plane by bringing our cell phones on board? I don't think so. If that were even an immediately possible threat, they would take every precaution to make sure it didn't happen. I'm not a terrorist, just speaking hypothetically.
[QUOTE=Trumple;33980585]What do they do if both of the pilots pass out/become unable to fly? Does a hero stand out from all the passengers and claim he can fly the plane with his flight simulator hours, while he safely flies the plane to the ground with the help of flight control?[/QUOTE]
most modern airliners can autoland at most airports (that are equipped with ILS). it'd be a matter of walking whoever is at the controls through programming the flight management system, throwing in some nav frequencies and hitting the right buttons at the right time. you can even arm auto brakes and auto spoilers so they activate on touchdown.
everything would have to go perfectly but it's possible i guess
[editline]31st December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=runtime;33980709]And personally I think that's very sensible and I have no issue in doing it. At an airport like London Heathrow, where there is housing both in the direction of arriving and departing aircraft, I would not like to be the first officer that gets fed wrong information or has his autopilot disconnect on a foggy, windy and low visibility day 2 miles out and at 750ft, just because his crew did not ask passengers to turn off their devices.[/QUOTE]
while it's possible, that's extremely unlikely. a more likely cause of interference would be an aircraft on the ground entering the ILS critical area etc.. plus the autopilot would never just disconnect completely
and for what it's worth, the amount of electromagnetic energy that is emitted doesn't just add up like you'd think it would (aka five cell phones isn't five times as much energy than one cell phone).
I don't think they'd fuck up the plane, but if they want me to turn off my phone for 3 seconds then whatever. It's not a big deal.
Oh no, you cant text for 5 minutes because the FAA is concerned for the safety of a multi-million dollar airplane and 200 lives.
[QUOTE=srroesl;33983344][editline]31st December 2011[/editline]
while it's possible, that's extremely unlikely. a more likely cause of interference would be an aircraft on the ground entering the ILS critical area etc.. plus the autopilot would never just disconnect completely
and for what it's worth, the amount of electromagnetic energy that is emitted doesn't just add up like you'd think it would (aka five cell phones isn't five times as much energy than one cell phone).[/QUOTE]
No it wouldn't you're right, but the fact the CAA, FAA and IATA haven't tested this technology thoroughly for use at critical flight stages, therefore presenting this "grey area", means that the airlines are encouraged to use these precautions.
[QUOTE=Nlogax;33983107]So if it's so dangerous that I could crash the plane with enough people using cell phones during take off/landing on board, then you're saying that me and my group of 10 terrorist friends or so could crash the plane by bringing our cell phones on board? I don't think so. If that were even an immediately possible threat, they would take every precaution to make sure it didn't happen. I'm not a terrorist, just speaking hypothetically.[/QUOTE]
I tried to elaborate on the arguments given earlier in the post with a more aircrew-orientated answer. The technological aspect of the discussion I've tried to touch on, as other posters have tried to look at the social aspect of having passengers focusing on critical flight stages. I didn't think it my place to comment on these as I don't actually fly passengers, as I instruct.
[QUOTE=ITokez;33978036]I remember when I was on a plane, And during takeoff, I was on my iphone. I politely told the flight attendant that it was on airline mode. Before I could finish my sentence, She cut me off and said "sir, please just turn it off." Shit pisses me off.[/QUOTE]
Yeah because the attendants should be responsible for making sure everyone's phone is actually in airplane mode and that people aren't lying about it
Good job being "that guy" on the plane though
[QUOTE=runtime;33988873]No it wouldn't you're right, but the fact the CAA, FAA and IATA haven't tested this technology thoroughly for use at critical flight stages, therefore presenting this "grey area", means that the airlines are encouraged to use these precautions.[/QUOTE]
oh for sure. i'm not questioning the validity of the regulation, just giving my opinion.
you instruct? awesome! do you work for a larger company or own the airplane yourself (or rent)?
[QUOTE=Zeke129;33989006]Yeah because the attendants should be responsible for making sure everyone's phone is actually in airplane mode and that people aren't lying about it
Good job being "that guy" on the plane though[/QUOTE] No problem <3
[QUOTE=runtime;33988873]No it wouldn't you're right, but the fact the CAA, FAA and IATA haven't tested this technology thoroughly for use at critical flight stages, therefore presenting this "grey area", means that the airlines are encouraged to use these precautions.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Better safe than sorry, even if the rule is to protect pilots and passengers from something that simply isn't true. Fact the FAA puts these kinds of things in place for a reason and will change the rule when it deems that there is no more need for it. The FAR/AIM was written in blood.
Mythbusters did an episode on it. Even the plane experts concluded it likely wouldn't do anything, but it would literally require some sort of board to test every plane/device combo ever.
Easier to just disallow them.
It's easy enough to just ignore the flight attendants or hide your phone. I don't understand what the bigass deal is. Just fold your hands together in your lap with your phone in it a voila. Phone is gone.
"It's of almost no incidence or inconvenience to me to turn off my electronic devices during takeoff and landing, however since I don't understand the reason I insist on being belligerent and pushing those limits set forth to me very clearly."
When I flew on UNITED the flight attended flat out said "First 10 minutes and last 10 minutes of the flight we ask you to turn everything off. During the flight usage of any electronic is fine"
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