[B]A Devon town council acted unlawfully by allowing prayers to be said before meetings, the High Court has ruled.[/B]
Action was brought against Bideford Town Council by the National Secular Society (NSS) after [B]atheist councillor Clive Bone complained[/B].
Mr Justice Ouseley ruled the prayers were not lawful under section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972.
However, he said [B]prayers could be said as long as councillors were not formally summoned to attend[/B].
[B]
The judgement was being seen as a test case which could affect local councils across England and Wales.[/B]
Mr Justice Ouseley ruled the prayers as practised by Bideford Town Council had been unlawful because there was no statutory power permitting them to continue.
The NSS, which said prayers had no place in "a secular environment concerned with civic business", argued [B]the "inappropriate" ritual breached articles 9 and 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which protect an individual's right to freedom of conscience and not to face discrimination.[/B]
However, the case was not won on human rights grounds but on a point of statutory construction of local government legislation.
Mr Justice Ouseley said: "[B]A local authority has no power under section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972, or otherwise, to hold prayers as part of a formal local authority meeting, or to summon councillors to such a meeting at which prayers are on the agenda.[/B]"
He told the court: "There is no specific power to say prayers or to have any period of quiet reflection as part of the business of the council."
Referring to Bideford, he said: "[B]The council has on two occasions by a majority voted to retain public prayers at its full meetings.[/B]
"[B]But that does not give it power to do what it has no power to do[/B]."
Speaking after Friday's outcome, Eric Pickles, Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, said the ruling was "surprising and disappointing".
He said: "[B]Public authorities - be it Parliament or a parish council - should have the right to say prayers before meetings if they wish.[/B]"
Simon Calvert, of the Christian Institute, said: "We are pleased that the court has said the saying of prayers at meetings does not breach human rights laws.
"But[B] it is bizarre that they should be declared unlawful [/B]because of the 1972 Local Government Act."
[B]
"I mean we're talking about a practice that goes back to the Elizabethan era.[/B]
The Bishop of Exeter, the [B]Right Reverend Michael Langrish, said he would encourage councils in his area to continue holding prayers before the start of their statutory business[/B].
He added: "I think it's a great pity that [B]a tiny minority are seeking to ban the majority[/B], many of whom find prayers very, very helpful, from continuing with a process in which no-one actually has to participate."
Mr Bone, who ended up leaving the council because of its "refusal to adjust" its prayers policy, said on Friday: "Quite frankly delighted. I'm not surprised, [B]I expected to win[/B].
"The law is the law and local authorities have to obey the law."
[B]"Religious freedom is an absolute right and so is freedom from religion an absolute right, in my view."[/B]
[URL]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-16980025[/URL]
At first I thought this was about prayers before a service at mass, and I was extremely confused. I like to see separation held up, though, so this is okay.
[quote]He added: "I think it's a great pity that a tiny minority are seeking to ban the majority, many of whom find prayers very, very helpful, from continuing with a process in which no-one actually has to participate."[/quote]
Exactly what proof do you have that the majority prays, and that the minority seeks to ban it? Fuck off with the persecution complex, it's a simple matter of religion having no place in a secular government.
[QUOTE=Penultimate;34634071]At first I thought this was about prayers before a service at mass, and I was extremely confused. I like to see separation held up, though, so this is okay.[/QUOTE]
"The separation" doesn't even exist in this country. And yet... :v:
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;34634144]Exactly what proof do you have that the majority prays, and that the minority seeks to ban it? Fuck off with the persecution complex, it's a simple matter of religion having no place in a secular government.[/QUOTE]
You do realize that technically, the belief that there is no God counts as a religious belief? Therefore, Atheism is a religion, and therefore, this is breaking separation of church and state. Prove me wrong.
Because it does not infringe on the rights of others to belief or enact on those believes once they are outside of a public service role.
Secondly a lack of a belief is not a belief in itself (to your point that atheism is a religion). It is merely a lack of a belief.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;34634412]You do realize that technically, the belief that there is no God counts as a religious belief? Therefore, Atheism is a religion, and therefore, this is breaking separation of church and state. Prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/gAd1c.png[/img]
:I
[QUOTE=Strongbad;34634412]You do realize that technically, the belief that there is no God counts as a religious belief? Therefore, Atheism is a religion, and therefore, this is breaking separation of church and state. Prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]
Is not playing football a sport?
Is not moving a form of movement?
Is "off" a TV-station?
Geez you're dense
[QUOTE=Strongbad;34634412]You do realize that technically, the belief that there is no God counts as a religious belief? Therefore, Atheism is a religion, and therefore, this is breaking separation of church and state. Prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]
That would make sense if they said they couldn't pray, and instead they had to swear allegiance to atheism or something
As they're just taking away prayers it's secular, not atheist
[QUOTE=Strongbad;34634412]You do realize that technically, the belief that there is no God counts as a religious belief? Therefore, Atheism is a religion, and therefore, this is breaking separation of church and state. Prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]
anti theism.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;34634412]You do realize that technically, the belief that there is no God counts as a religious belief? Therefore, Atheism is a religion, and therefore, this is breaking separation of church and state. Prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]
This isn't about atheism though, this is about secularism, keeping religious practices out of official government business.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;34634412]You do realize that technically, the belief that there is no God counts as a religious belief? Therefore, Atheism is a religion, and therefore, this is breaking separation of church and state. Prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]
I thought atheism is a belief, not a religion. I dont pray to my nonesistant god every day. :v:
[QUOTE=Strongbad;34634412]You do realize that technically, the belief that there is no God counts as a religious belief? Therefore, Atheism is a religion, and therefore, this is breaking separation of church and state. Prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]
The fuck are you talking about. Religion is a belief system using Symbols representing whatever, usually following certain rules/guidelines based on what they believe in. Atheism by its very definition is the absence of the belief that deities exist. That's it. Atheism isn't a religion in any way, shape or form, it's simply a lack of faith in the existence of deities.
Why do people have to complain about this? If they don't like it, just ignore it. It's that simple.
[QUOTE=Stonecycle;34634638]Why do people have to complain about this? If they don't like it, just ignore it. It's that simple.[/QUOTE]
that attitude doesn't get you very far past grade school
[QUOTE=Stonecycle;34634638]Why do people have to complain about this? If they don't like it, just ignore it. It's that simple.[/QUOTE]
When it gets rubbed in your face on a daily basis, it can be quite hard to ignore in the long run.
[QUOTE=Stonecycle;34634638]Why do people have to complain about this? If they don't like it, just ignore it. It's that simple.[/QUOTE]
Because by the sounds of it ("as long as councillors were not formally summoned to attend") they were being "forced" to pray which isn't a good thing. Also by making it part of the agenda of the meeting they are making the prayers a bit of formal council business which they just don't have the power to do.
[QUOTE=Van-man;34634736]When it gets rubbed in your face on a daily basis, it can be quite hard to ignore in the long run.[/QUOTE]
That's like saying a TV show being watched by someone in the same house as you (in the same room as you) is rubbing it in your face.
If people find it necessary to pray, let them. If it's forced on anyone then yes it is unfair, but from what I can see it's nothing of the sort.
[QUOTE=Stonecycle;34634638]Why do people have to complain about this? If they don't like it, just ignore it. It's that simple.[/QUOTE]
It's like MLP. It's EVERYWHERE, plastered on to things that it shouldn't be on. People do try to ignore it, with little success, because people have to bring it into everything.
At first I thought this meant banning people from praying privately, as if the court felt divine intervention was unlawful, but I suppose this makes sense.
[QUOTE=Stonecycle;34634638]Why do people have to complain about this? If they don't like it, just ignore it. It's that simple.[/QUOTE]
That about the worst course of action you can take with things you dislike about your government.
The guy is totally right. Pray all you want before hand, just don't formally summon people so that they have to be there.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;34634412]You do realize that technically, the belief that there is no God counts as a religious belief? Therefore, Atheism is a religion, and therefore, this is breaking separation of church and state. Prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]
Look, I'm a Christian and I believe in God, but this is a stupid post and you just shouldn't say anything right now.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;34634412]You do realize that technically, the belief that there is no God counts as a religious belief? Therefore, Atheism is a religion, and therefore, this is breaking separation of church and state. Prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]
nope
[B]
Religion:[/B]
re·li·gion/riˈlijən/
Noun:
The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
Details of belief as taught or discussed.
Synonyms:
faith - belief - creed - denomination
You're wrong. Next.
I wish that dictionaries would stop revising definitions based on what the general uniformed populace believes a word means
that definition broadly defines theistic religions and nothing more
As expected, the Daily Mail is absolutely shitting itself about this story. Surprisingly though they haven't put a spin on the story to attack Muslims who are allowed (in my council at least) a few minutes out during work hours to pray during Ramadan. [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2099300/Councils-BANNED-saying-prayers-meetings-sparking-fury-Government-church-leaders.html]Read their hysterical, rambling article[/url].
[QUOTE=Strongbad;34634412]You do realize that technically, the belief that there is no God counts as a religious belief? Therefore, Atheism is a religion, and therefore, this is breaking separation of church and state. Prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]
Main Entry: religion  [ri-lij-uhn]
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: belief in divinity; system of beliefs
Synonyms: church, communion, creed, cult, denomination, devotion, doctrine, higher power, morality, myth, mythology, observance, orthodoxy, pietism, piety, prayer, preference, religiosity, rites, ritual, sacrifice, sanctification, sect, spiritual-mindedness, spirituality, standards, superstition, theology, veneration
Antonyms: agnosticism, [U][B]atheism[/B][/U], disbelief
Oh my would you look at that.
[QUOTE=ChilColdCoolaid;34645153]Main Entry: religion  [ri-lij-uhn]
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: belief in divinity; system of beliefs
Synonyms: church, communion, creed, cult, denomination, devotion, doctrine, higher power, morality, myth, mythology, observance, orthodoxy, pietism, piety, prayer, preference, religiosity, rites, ritual, sacrifice, sanctification, sect, spiritual-mindedness, spirituality, standards, superstition, theology, veneration
Antonyms: agnosticism, [B]atheism[/B], disbelief
Oh my would you look at that.[/QUOTE]
yep there are no atheistic religions because a dictionary said so
[quote]However, he said prayers could be said as long as councillors were not formally summoned to attend.[/quote]
Wow, it's almost like this judge had some brain cells and made a really intelligent decision that makes sure nobody's religious beliefs are trampled upon
[QUOTE=Sanius;34645165]yep there are no atheistic religions because a dictionary said so[/QUOTE]
Wow will you stop with this. Atheism is not a religion. There are religions that are atheistic because they don't have a creator god or any gods, but that does NOT make atheism a religion. It makes those religions atheistic.
Atheism these days is also used to describe the lack of a belief in religion in general which is why it is an antonym for religion.
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