Ex GM CEO Bob Lutz compares Tesla to socialism (after GM took $11b under his reign) - Polidicks

[QUOTE]When asked “will Tesla still exist 20 years from now?” Bob said: [QUOTE]As it is presently, no. As they say, “Socialism is great until they run out of other people’s money.” Tesla burns cash. It’s not a car company, it’s a cult of fanatics who think Elon Musk can do no wrong. But financially, it doesn’t work. [/QUOTE] ... Anyway, the real kicker here is his comment comparing Tesla to socialism, which is clearly a swipe at Tesla being supported by public funds – something that has been debunked on several occasions. The comment is particularly interesting because under his reign at GM (2001-2010), the automaker went bankrupt and accepted a huge bailout from the government, which ultimately cost $11.2 billion to taxpayers. [/QUOTE] [URL="https://electrek.co/2016/08/18/bob-lutz-compares-tesla-socialism/"]Source[/URL]

Funny cause he's the CEO of a company that has partly Electric trucks. [url]http://www.viamotors.com/[/url] [quote]VIA offers versions of vans, pickup trucks, and SUVs as Extended Range Electric Vehicles (E-REV). The VIA VTRUX truck has a 40-mile battery-only range,[8] and a 35-mile range for the van and SUV. After batteries are depleted, a gas-powered generator creates electricity for continued driving, similar to the architecture of the Chevy Volt.[6][13][/quote]

That bailout burn :godzing:

Socialism comment is pretty fucking bizarre, but there's apparently some really high turnover in Tesla, and in particular SpaceX. Lots of really substandard salaries and nasty work environments.

how much of a fucking idiot can you be tbh

lmao he's salty as fuck, Tesla and electric automobiles in general are the future

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;50912156]Socialism comment is pretty fucking bizarre, but there's apparently some really high turnover in Tesla, and in particular SpaceX. Lots of really substandard salaries and nasty work environments.[/QUOTE] Yes, I've heard Musk is extremely tough on his employees (i.e. calls people out and does so in a manner most would consider extremely rude / offensive), which isn't dissimilar from Steve Jobs. I thought the substandard salary was just some bs story that Tesla even provided docs to disprove. I'm not sure what nasty work environments actually pertains to (e.g. Elon's attitude or dangerous work conditions). High turnover in high-stress roles is hardly strange.

[QUOTE=PowerUp;50912424]Yes, I've heard Musk is extremely tough on his employees (i.e. calls people out and does so in a manner most would consider extremely rude / offensive), which isn't dissimilar from Steve Jobs. I thought the substandard salary was just some bs story that Tesla even provided docs to disprove. I'm not sure what nasty work environments actually pertains to (e.g. Elon's attitude or dangerous work conditions). High turnover in high-stress roles is hardly strange.[/QUOTE] From what I've read, Musk doesn't offer competitive salaries for entry/midlevel positions. There's some really nasty feedback on sites like glassdoor, as well as rants by (verified) former employees on some assorted tech forums to back it up. It's funny you mention Apple because Musk himself made some snarky comments about people not making the cut at Tesla going to work for Apple last year, and a bunch of employees came out and basically said... "uhh... I get payed double after leaving Tesla, in an area that's not the bay area, and I don't have to deal with 80-90 hour weeks or an HR department that actively tries to shit on my existence. Why the fuck would I want to work for Tesla at half the pay in an area where rent is 4 times as high?" His comments sure made it sound like he was salty as fuck about getting his talent poached when people didn't want to drink his koolaid and not get paid for it. Makes sense when you get down to it. I'd honesty rather work 2 shitty part time retail jobs where I am (which ain't exactly cheap), than work those sorts of hours for 45-50k in the bay area. Less hours, and a higher quality of life. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I hate Musk. He's a business man with a vision, and he's driven. I can respect that. If he can carry out his vision and not pay people highly for it, that's just business as usual. I can't fault that. I do find faults with the vision (not to mention numerous faults with the product), and wouldn't want to subject myself to that environment without pay considerations. I'd prefer to concede on neither, but I won't concede on both. Apparently the high end positions pay very well, but that means putting up with Musk, who as you mentioned is more than rumored to be a downright cunt.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;50912760]From what I've read, Musk doesn't offer competitive salaries for entry/midlevel positions. There's some really nasty feedback on sites like glassdoor, as well as rants by (verified) former employees on some assorted tech forums to back it up. It's funny you mention Apple because Musk himself made some snarky comments about people not making the cut at Tesla going to work for Apple last year, and a bunch of employees came out and basically said... "uhh... I get payed double after leaving Tesla, in an area that's not the bay area, and I don't have to deal with 80-90 hour weeks or an HR department that actively tries to shit on my existence. Why the fuck would I want to work for Tesla at half the pay in an area where rent is 4 times as high?" His comments sure made it sound like he was salty as fuck about getting his talent poached when people didn't want to drink his koolaid and not get paid for it. Makes sense when you get down to it. I'd honesty rather work 2 shitty part time retail jobs where I am (which ain't exactly cheap), than work those sorts of hours for 45-50k in the bay area. Less hours, and a higher quality of life. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I hate Musk. He's a business man with a vision, and he's driven. I can respect that. If he can carry out his vision and not pay people highly for it, that's just business as usual. I can't fault that. I do find faults with the vision (not to mention numerous faults with the product), and wouldn't want to subject myself to that environment without pay considerations. I'd prefer to concede on neither, but I won't concede on both. Apparently the high end positions pay very well, but that means putting up with Musk, who as you mentioned is more than rumored to be a downright cunt.[/QUOTE] Yea I'm guessing that a lot of entry or mid-level are willing to take the pay cut there because of how they expect it will give them a resume boost and I'm sure Elon is aware of the fact and using it to his financial advantage. I've read Elon has had a falling out with some very long-term and loyal employees in the past, but at least in the case of a previous female assistant (mentioned in Vance book) they weren't willing to go on record to discuss the details.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;50912760]From what I've read, Musk doesn't offer competitive salaries for entry/midlevel positions. There's some really nasty feedback on sites like glassdoor, as well as rants by (verified) former employees on some assorted tech forums to back it up. It's funny you mention Apple because Musk himself made some snarky comments about people not making the cut at Tesla going to work for Apple last year, and a bunch of employees came out and basically said... "uhh... I get payed double after leaving Tesla, in an area that's not the bay area, and I don't have to deal with 80-90 hour weeks or an HR department that actively tries to shit on my existence. Why the fuck would I want to work for Tesla at half the pay in an area where rent is 4 times as high?" His comments sure made it sound like he was salty as fuck about getting his talent poached when people didn't want to drink his koolaid and not get paid for it. Makes sense when you get down to it. I'd honesty rather work 2 shitty part time retail jobs where I am (which ain't exactly cheap), than work those sorts of hours for 45-50k in the bay area. Less hours, and a higher quality of life. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I hate Musk. He's a business man with a vision, and he's driven. I can respect that. If he can carry out his vision and not pay people highly for it, that's just business as usual. I can't fault that. I do find faults with the vision (not to mention numerous faults with the product), and wouldn't want to subject myself to that environment without pay considerations. I'd prefer to concede on neither, but I won't concede on both. Apparently the high end positions pay very well, but that means putting up with Musk, who as you mentioned is more than rumored to be a downright cunt.[/QUOTE] It really depends on the worker if that's a bad thing though. From what I know from people who worked Co-op at Tesla and recruiters from SpaceX it's more like a large company with a small start-up mentality. You have to enjoy and find reward in your work more than it's salary, and like start-ups people are gonna drop out and be pissed they had to work so hard. Honestly I'd rather have less pay at the end of the day and say I helped go to Mars than get double that and say I made the next MacBook half an inch slimmer.

[QUOTE=Sumap;50912816]You have to enjoy and find reward in your work more than it's salary[/QUOTE] That's such a corporate line. I can enjoy and find reward in my work and still be fairly compensated for the value I provide to my employer. Startups that pay poorly and try to use this line of reasoning often have high turnover, while good startups recognize that retaining talent requires giving people direct incentives to stay and feel satisfied with their work. I've got no problem working long hours and putting in 100% to maximally benefit the company when the company is also maximally benefiting for me. Anything less than that is exploitative.

I think many of you all are ignoring the reality of the situation. A former CEO of GM isn't exactly the best person to say it how it is, given that GM had to rely on a massive bailout several years ago, but he has a point. Tesla has shit profitability, well they don't even have profitability as they have been running at a continual loss. They are propped up mostly by their shareholders, but they are also massively overvalued and can potentially tank hard when the market re-adjusts. They also have really shit liquidity, so if/when they do tank, it's not going to be pretty. And for the icing on the cake, they might have occupied a nice little niche in past years, but the big automakers are catching up; GM, BMW, Porsche etc.

Weird, because socialists generally dislike Elon Musk IIRC for being put high up onto a pedestal despite still being an exploitative boss like the others.

[QUOTE=sb27;50913634]And for the icing on the cake, they might have occupied a nice little niche in past years, but the big automakers are catching up; GM, BMW, Porsche etc.[/QUOTE] That "niche" isn't going to be very "little" for long considering countries and states are beginning to mandate transitions to ZEVs in the near future, and no other automaker is remotely close to touching Tesla's tech. Fuck the cars for a second, half the value in a Tesla is the supercharging network. If someone else makes a car with a 500 mile range, that's awesome, but then what? Sure you have other charging networks like ChargePoint, but those cost a bit (less than gas but more than free) and take many times longer to charge, not to mention their locations are probably fairly inconsistent.

So, from what Im reading, Tesla is actually not THAT great as a company. Business yes, company no. If you are going to lead people, its ok to be tough sometimes as you cant be tolerating bullshit or people not doing what they re supposed to do. But doing what musk does and jobs did is so wrong, on many levels. From a economic pointn of view, by treating employees better, as human beings and not as disposable cheap robots and rewarding them, you are going to get so much more in return later on. You cant tell me that paying some extra bucks for a medicine or treatment is going to fuck up your company. Plus, you are also a human being so treating others as shit because you are on a higher position, is something proper of shits.

[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;50913783]fucking shit head killed the EV1 and he goes complaining nonsense about Tesla the thing was basically a spaceship and basically a Model 3 15 years prior and then they [URL="http://www.ev1.org/wp-content/uploads/gmboob8.jpg"]crushed all of them[/URL] [IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/EV1_Center_Console_2.jpg[/IMG] [highlight]fuck you[/highlight][/QUOTE] The EV1 was not a sustainable investment. It was incredibly expensive to produce them; GM was hemorrhaging money on every one they leased. Crushing them was dumb but they probably didn't want Ford/Toyota/loldodge to reverse-engineer them and come out with one with no R&D costs.

I hate Tesla as much as you do, Bob, but get real. It isnt socialism. Its okay to not like them because your personal preference lies elsewhere, you dont need to justify it with false insults.

[QUOTE=Supacasey;50913827]That "niche" isn't going to be very "little" for long considering countries and states are beginning to mandate transitions to ZEVs in the near future, and no other automaker is remotely close to touching Tesla's tech. Fuck the cars for a second, half the value in a Tesla is the supercharging network. If someone else makes a car with a 500 mile range, that's awesome, but then what? Sure you have other charging networks like ChargePoint, but those cost a bit (less than gas but more than free) and take many times longer to charge, not to mention their locations are probably fairly inconsistent.[/QUOTE] I'm still legitimately surprised that there hasn't been any information about Tesla hashing out agreements to share their charge tech with other companies. I'm sure there's been at least a few inquiries in private, but it seems peculiar that nothing has happened yet, even superficially. There's got to be some serious money in the service industry of providing charging solutions. In exactly the same way that Amazon is printing money with AWS, I'd expect Tesla to have a veritable mint on their hands with contracted use of their infrastructure.

"Ex GM CEO Bob Lutz makes a complete ass of himself" Fixed your title.

guess when you can't buy out and shut down electric car companies all you can do is throw petty insults

[QUOTE=TestECull;50914228]I hate Tesla as much as you do, Bob, but get real. It isnt socialism. Its okay to not like them because your personal preference lies elsewhere, you dont need to justify it with false insults.[/QUOTE] Why do you hate Tesla? They've single handedly proven that purely electric vehicles are a viable option over internal combustion. Tesla has made them appealing and popular, something that the largest most well established automobile manufacturers in the world couldn't do.

[QUOTE=No_Excuses;50915710]Why do you hate Tesla? They've single handedly proven that purely electric vehicles are a viable option over internal combustion. Tesla has made them appealing and popular, something that the largest most well established automobile manufacturers in the world couldn't do.[/QUOTE] iirc he's just said he's against evs in general, he's been posting anti-tesla and anti-ev sentiments in literally every thread related to them or ICE for years now not shitting on you, testecull, as a fellow car enthusiast/gearhead i know where the sentiment comes from [QUOTE=Cutthecrap;50913842]So, from what Im reading, Tesla is actually not THAT great as a company. Business yes, company no. If you are going to lead people, its ok to be tough sometimes as you cant be tolerating bullshit or people not doing what they re supposed to do. But doing what musk does and jobs did is so wrong, on many levels. From a economic pointn of view, by treating employees better, as human beings and not as disposable cheap robots and rewarding them, you are going to get so much more in return later on. You cant tell me that paying some extra bucks for a medicine or treatment is going to fuck up your company. Plus, you are also a human being so treating others as shit because you are on a higher position, is something proper of shits.[/QUOTE] from what ive read, as someone in the field of engineering who has entertained the idea of an internship or working for tesla after school, it doesn't seem to me so much that musk and tesla are actively shit to their employees, as he has a vision and a drive for his company, and overworks himself, and he expects that same drive and sacrifice from all of his employees. as for salaries, i haven't done THAT much research into it, but while tesla is based in palo alto (one of the highest costs of living in the country), spacex is based in hawthorne, which, iirc is a slightly shittier area and has a lower cost of living than the bay area or palo alto.

[QUOTE=Zombii;50915790] not shitting on you, testecull, as a fellow car enthusiast/gearhead i know where the sentiment comes from[/QUOTE] Are you saying that being a gearhead in any way validates a negative opinion toward Tesla or EVs in general?

[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;50913783]fucking shit head killed the EV1 and he goes complaining nonsense about Tesla the thing was basically a spaceship and basically a Model 3 15 years prior and then they [URL="http://www.ev1.org/wp-content/uploads/gmboob8.jpg"]crushed all of them[/URL] [IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/EV1_Center_Console_2.jpg[/IMG] [highlight]fuck you[/highlight][/QUOTE] That looks fucking awesome. I always figured if a company made a EV that had a star wars-esque design it would be GM. Their older models just had that rugged and practical look I liked.

[QUOTE=Piciul;50912368]lmao he's salty as fuck, Tesla and electric automobiles in general are the future[/QUOTE] Oddly enough, Lutz isn't against EV's persay. He's in favor of hybrids and worked on the Volt. From an article mentioned in the source: [quote][B]MW:[/B] Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that. You’re on the record as saying the electric vehicle was inevitable, but you’re not a fan of some of the models out there, particularly ones made by Tesla. [B]Lutz:[/B] I’m a great fan of the vehicles. I’m certainly a great fan of the Model S. The Model X isn’t working too well because it doesn’t have enough roof structure, so those doors are never going to work. The Model 3 — we’ll see what happens with that. I think it’s going to be delayed again.[/quote] [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ge_CN0-ZRs[/media] [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1Mmioe19NY[/media] At the same time, he doesn't believe that humans are responsible for global warming. Bob is a bit of a enigma. [quote][B]Lutz:[/B] You know, Elon Musk is a wonderful guy. He’s a visionary. He’s personally charming. He’s the eternal optimist. [However,] he does make a lot of claims and a lot of statements that as time goes by prove to be not to be quite accurate. Every time somebody tries to focus in on the here and now, he dangles another grand vision in front of them.[/quote]

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;50915804]Are you saying that being a gearhead in any way validates a negative opinion toward Tesla or EVs in general?[/QUOTE] ...no? i'm just saying that i can see why some people think that evs won't catch on or are opposed to them.

[QUOTE=Zombii;50915990]...no? i'm just saying that i can see why some people think that evs won't catch on or are opposed to them.[/QUOTE] Got it, I thought you were saying that opinion was a gearhead thing or was made more understandable by being a gearhead. Carry on.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;50913701]Weird, because socialists generally dislike Elon Musk IIRC for being put high up onto a pedestal despite still being an exploitative boss like the others.[/QUOTE] Pretty much this. CEOs like Musk are essentially benevolent dictators, and one thing that tends to be true about liberals is that they love to engage in worship of the enlightened despots in the business world. It doesn't matter how they treat workers or how much damage they do to society, as long as they offer a good deal to the consumer and express liberal values.

[QUOTE=Matthew0505;50912380]General Motors is great until they run out of other peoples' money.[/QUOTE] But remember, "what's good for general motors is good for america", so clearly bailouts are great

[QUOTE=daschnek;50916945]Pretty much this. CEOs like Musk are essentially benevolent dictators, and one thing that tends to be true about liberals is that they love to engage in worship of the enlightened despots in the business world. It doesn't matter how they treat workers or how much damage they do to society, as long as they offer a good deal to the consumer and express liberal values.[/QUOTE] I think historically speaking the right has far more of a fascination with that kind of person than the evil dirty "liberals"