New Hampshire town fears residents won't call for help after court rules firefighters can sue homeow - Polidicks

[release]EPPING — The town's deputy fire chief is urging residents not to stop calling for help for fear of being sued if a firefighter or other emergency worker is injured on the job. The message came in response to concerns over a state Supreme Court ruling last month that found former volunteer Epping firefighter Jason Antosz could sue a homeowner because he slipped on ice and snow and was seriously injured during a call. “If you call us we're going to come — don't worry about us suing you. We have a job to do,” Deputy Fire Chief Bruce Chapman told selectmen at a board meeting last week. The case involving Antosz stemmed from a call he responded to at the Epping home of Doree Allain on Jan. 29, 2008, after a fire was reported in a water heater. Antosz slipped on packed ice and snow in the driveway and is now disabled. Antosz, a Republican state representative, filed suit against Allain, claiming she was negligent for failing to properly treat the driveway, but a Rockingham County Superior Court judge dismissed the case, citing the Fireman's Rule, a law that prevents emergency personnel from bringing lawsuits when they're injured while responding to a call. The state Supreme Court overturned the ruling last month, saying it can't stop an emergency responder from suing “for other negligent conduct.” The court ruled that the Fireman's Rule “permits a firefighter to pursue causes of action for injuries arising from allegedly negligent conduct that did not create the occasion of his visit, regardless of whether that conduct occurs during or prior to the firefighter's official engagement on the scene.” Antosz received worker's compensation and a settlement, according to Allain's attorney. Chapman said the fire department is “not happy with what's going on.” “I was always under the impression, when you sign on the dotted line you know it's a dangerous job. Are you going to sue the military if you get your arm blown off? It's just not right,” he said. Selectman Tom Gauthier also voiced concern about the ruling at last week's meeting. “Now you have an issue where if safety personnel are at your house for a safety issue, for the ambulance or whatever, and they slip and fall that homeowner is going to be sued or has the possibility of being sued. That is just so wrong. It's going to make people not want to call the fire department or call the ambulance if you're going to have to go through something like that,” Gauthier said. David Lang, president of the Professional Fire Fighters of New Hampshire, worries the case could have a chilling effect. “The thing that we want to stress here is that in a time of an emergency, seconds, not minutes, count and we don't want people to have to hesitate in accessing emergency services,” Lang said. “As somebody representing a large group of firefighters, we would not want someone to hesitate to think about, ‘Did I shovel my driveway?'” Others aren't as worried about lawsuits preventing people from calling when they need help. “That would not be the first thing on my mind,” Plaistow Fire Chief John McArdle said. “I would hope people would not put themselves in jeopardy for fear of being sued.” The Fireman's Rule pertains to other public safety personnel as well, including police officers. Even when an injured emergency responder receives worker's compensation, it's only 60 percent of their base salary, Brentwood police Sgt. Denny Wood said. “I don't know many Americans that can live on 60 percent of their base salaries, especially when it may be someone else's fault,” Wood said. Like firefighters, Wood said police officers also know the risks when they take the job. “When we signed onto this job we understood the inherent dangers which encompass the job we do. However, it is comforting to know that we now have other personal protections afforded to us and to our families for someone else's gross negligence,” Wood said. At the same time, Wood said he wouldn't want people to delay an emergency call for fear of a lawsuit. “I think I can speak for all emergency workers when I say we would never want any homeowner or business owner to not call the emergency services because they are concerned about civil liability. I don't think that was ever the intent of Mr. Antosz's lawsuit. I think it's about gross negligence,” he said.[/release] [url=http://www.newhampshire.com/article/20120312/NEWS07/703129960]Source: New Hampshire Union Leader[/url]

Jesus Christ, why are people so sue happy? "He slipped on ice and snow" I'm pretty sure the homeowner didn't put that snow or ice for you to trip on. Seems like it was his own dam fault.

So firefighters can sue in one state while others can shoot police officers? wut

oh man my house better not catch on fire, that or they better move the border up a few miles edit: oh wait this is epping, im safe. was thinking this was state wide

[QUOTE]slipped on ice and snow[/QUOTE] In a fire Riiiiight

[QUOTE=Naaz;35114968]In a fire Riiiiight[/QUOTE] [quote]packed ice and snow in the [b]driveway[/b][/quote]

Hopefully families of firefighters can sue if their loved ones die in a fire.

Well, we definitely do get more than enough ice here :v:

I wasn't even aware you could sue someone for slipping on ice on their property. I'm sure it falls under some kind of negligence, but come on, ice just forms up where ever it pleases. Find an alternate route or be careful. Not really the home owner's issue.

[QUOTE=Parakon;35115781]I wasn't even aware you could sue someone for slipping on ice on their property. I'm sure it falls under some kind of negligence, but come on, ice just forms up where ever it pleases. Find an alternate route or be careful. Not really the home owner's issue.[/QUOTE] sidewalks get icy when you don't shovel them and the snow partially melts and then freezes into ice. around here everyone's responsible for maintaining the strip of sidewalk in front of their house.

Dunno why I didn't hear about this yet. Epping isn't too too far from me. Small town emergency people can be such fucks. Here in Windham, the small amount of cops we have ALL SUCK. But in the town next to me, Salem, there are at least a handful of noteworthy, decent cops. I think the smaller the town, the more cops and firemen will think less of having a "duty"/"job" and more of like a ruling over the community.

[QUOTE=Kalibos;35115845]sidewalks get icy when you don't shovel them and the snow partially melts and then freezes into ice. around here everyone's responsible for maintaining the strip of sidewalk in front of their house.[/QUOTE] The difference being the side walk is meant for everyone to walk on, the fireman slipped in their driveway, which the home owner should be able to turn it into an ice rink if they see fit, or even keep a pit of snakes handy, it's their property after all.

[QUOTE=Paramud;35115302]Hopefully families of firefighters can sue if their loved ones die in a fire.[/QUOTE] I don't think suing would help anyone in that case.

[QUOTE=Parakon;35115927]The difference being the side walk is meant for everyone to walk on, the fireman slipped in their driveway, which the home owner should be able to turn it into an ice rink if they see fit, or even keep a pit of snakes handy, it's their property after all.[/QUOTE] This mentality is actually kinda right, but there are still always some sort of safety regulations that need to be followed. Like how pools need to have a fence around them.

[QUOTE=Naaz;35114968]In a fire Riiiiight[/QUOTE] Fire doesn't exactly work that way. It's not like it melts all ice within a square mile the instant it starts.

This is as stupid as the fact that if a burgler gets hurt while robbing your home, they can sue you for it.

[QUOTE=codemaster85;35116151]This is as stupid as the fact that if a burgler gets hurt while robbing your home, they can sue you for it.[/QUOTE] I dunno, I understand suing over somebody not having their shit cleared of ice and causing an injury, but I also live in Wisconsin, and if you're too lazy to actually do it the city you live in will send two guys with shovels and picks to do it for you. And bill you obscenely for the work. If you being lazy causes an injury to a person trying to help you, you deserve that added expense.

People also have to remember volunteer fighter-fighters are strictly that. They don't get paid, they don't get benefits or any of that other stuff. Plus it is pretty standard that a homeowner can be held liable if they don't maintain their property. It sucks, but it is pretty standard.

[QUOTE=NO ONE;35115885]Dunno why I didn't hear about this yet. Epping isn't too too far from me. Small town emergency people can be such fucks. Here in Windham, the small amount of cops we have ALL SUCK. But in the town next to me, Salem, there are at least a handful of noteworthy, decent cops. I think the smaller the town, the more cops and firemen will think less of having a "duty"/"job" and more of like a ruling over the community.[/QUOTE] That's not how it is here. The only people that hate cops either do it because they're 'edgy', or they're druggies who don't want to go to jail. The town policemen are actually pretty nice and do their jobs well enough. The Firefighters are EMT's are nice as well, and they don't even get paid for what they do. We're too small to have a 24/7 FD, so it's all 100% volunteer (the equipment is provided by the borough).

Home owners should obviously be sued because they failed to prevent a house fire. Obviously negligent behaviour.

Yes, if they are injured on the job they should be entitled to a little bit of money to pay for medical bills and such, but the homeowner should not have to pay unless the fire was started intentionally - If they know who started the fire, if intentional, THEY should be able to be sued - nobody else

Just like we learned not to report child porn from the guy who was denied meeting his daughter alone for 4 months, now we learn not to call for help during a fire.

This is pretty ridiculous. If a firefighter/EMT/police officer is hurt on the job it should be up to their employer to compensate them. It is kind of funny though that it's the people calling for help that need to worry about being sued instead of being the other way around like it usually is.

[QUOTE=Kalibos;35115845]sidewalks get icy when you don't shovel them and the snow partially melts and then freezes into ice. around here everyone's responsible for maintaining the strip of sidewalk in front of their house.[/QUOTE] But you move the snow, the path refreezes and causes black ice instead. Better to leave the snow.

[QUOTE=MR-X;35116432]People also have to remember volunteer fighter-fighters are strictly that. They don't get paid, they don't get benefits or any of that other stuff. Plus it is pretty standard that a homeowner can be held liable if they don't maintain their property. It sucks, but it is pretty standard.[/QUOTE] If there isn't a law saying that you need to scrape ice off your driveway (not sidewalk) then there shouldn't be a problem. It's not exactly like the owner was expecting to have firefighters run up his driveway that day and then have one of them slip. If you volunteer to be a firefighter you know the risks, and you shouldn't be able to sue simply because you aren't on a payroll. [editline]13th March 2012[/editline] oh but wait we're the ones to judge whether or not a person can have ice on their property, aren't we

[QUOTE=Phaselancer;35114904]Jesus Christ, why are people so sue happy? "He slipped on ice and snow" I'm pretty sure the homeowner didn't put that snow or ice for you to trip on. Seems like it was his own dam fault.[/QUOTE] Why would you sue for that anyways

I would have expected the Firemen to A)Be fit enough to not be debilitated from falling in a driveway (though the heavy gear probably came into play) B)Have some kind of traction boots. It just seems right.

[QUOTE=ViralHatred;35120189]But you move the snow, the path refreezes and causes black ice instead. Better to leave the snow.[/QUOTE] Black ice doesn't just spontaneously occur like that. You need something redepositing moisture on what you cleared. And assuming you're utterly incapable of using an ice pick, we have this modern wonder called "salt".

[QUOTE=MR-X;35116432]People also have to remember volunteer fighter-fighters are strictly that. They don't get paid, they don't get benefits or any of that other stuff. Plus it is pretty standard that a homeowner can be held liable if they don't maintain their property. It sucks, but it is pretty standard.[/QUOTE] Doesn't change the fact that it's dumb. It's your property, do what you want to. Or don't do what you don't want to do. I don't shovel my driveway when it snows. It's my property, I'm free to not do that if I don't want to do that, and I don't want to spend hours out there shoveling snow. Emergency workers should be unable to sue homeowners under any circumstances if they're injured on a call. They know the job's dangerous, they know the next call is as likely to be their last as it isn't, and they're expected to brave whatever dangers faced to aid the citizenry. The firefighter that filed the lawsuit that started this is a dick and isn't worthy of the position, and the court that allowed it to go through should be look at as well. [editline]13th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Xenocidebot;35122900]Black ice doesn't just spontaneously occur like that. You need something redepositing moisture on what you cleared. And assuming you're utterly incapable of using an ice pick, we have this modern wonder called "salt".[/QUOTE] Clear snow and ice --> Slight flurry falls --> afternoon sun melts flurry --> night falls --> Flurry becomes black ice.

Thread Music [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI[/media] I really cannot stand sue-happy people.