• Can Trump Pardon Himself?
    37 replies, posted
[quote]With the appointment of Robert Mueller as a special counsel, the chatter about President Donald Trump’s impeachment has started to migrate from the purely hypothetical to the realm of potential practical reality. All citizens have a duty to stay informed during such a moment. But legal and political experts have the added responsibility of anticipating the many constitutional dilemmas that loom on the horizon. Donald Trump is an unprecedented president in many ways, and there is good reason to think any early departure of his from office would be unprecedented as well. Consider the following situation. Whether or not presidents can be prosecuted while in office (no one knows for sure), the law is clear that they can be prosecuted after they have left. That makes it conceivable that President Trump, if he perceives that a team of prosecutors is closing in on him, could attempt to solve his problem by simply pardoning himself.[/quote] [url]http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/19/what-would-happen-if-trump-pardoned-himself-mueller-russia-investigation/[/url]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines[/url]
Short answer: no
[QUOTE=Stopper;52257871][url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines[/url][/QUOTE] Except if you read the article, the answer could be yes. Nobody's tried to preemptively pardon themselves, ever, so it hasn't quite been ruled illegal to do yet. The question is whether Trump is stupid enough to try, which is just a "probably".
Unequivocally: no. I mean, he can [I]try[/I], but there's no way it would actually be honored by the legal system, and it would result in his [I]immediate[/I] impeachment.
A self pardon for what might amount to treason? Probably wouldn't go over so well. :thinking:
There's a case for both sides, the founding fathers never thought that it needed to be said that a president could pardon himself but therein lies the problem. It's not written down and he [i]is[/i] mad enough to give it a go. If there were unaddressed charges after a pardon and impeachment he could be taken down then because he can't pardon himself for something he's not convicted of yet. The article also addresses another shortcoming: It isn't forbidden for Pence to lead his own trial for impeachment either. I don't think he'd want to do it but he's got the option. He's doing a good job of highlighting flaws in the system.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52257925]Unequivocally: no. I mean, he can [I]try[/I], but there's no way it would actually be honored by the legal system, and it would result in his [I]immediate[/I] impeachment.[/QUOTE] I think the possibility that he can try regardless raises another question - how far the Republican House & Senate have gone to defend him, I'm concerned he can [I]try[/I] whatever he wants, say "I was pre-emptively defending myself from the deep state", then have President Pence/Hatch grant the pardon anyway to save the GOP the destruction of helping a [I]proven[/I] criminal (all the difference from allegations, aka "fake news!!"). It would be unpopular as shit, there would be protests and moderate Rs would say "this is bad" but it's not like we'll raise a second impeachment just to get someone to undo the pardon. Even the Nixon pardon was hugely unpopular, but it only brought Ford's approval down to 50% and people forgot about it until election time. At first I would agree that they'd hold on to Trump to pass what they want then cut him loose, but the time for that shift was too long ago. I'm starting to get the impression they'll defend his legacy at any cost. Actually, even Nixon & cabinet seriously considered pardoning himself and then resigning. The next president would have to manually override the pardon which raises another shitstorm.
[QUOTE=Judas;52257900]Short answer: no[/QUOTE] Long answer: He will do it anyway, whether or not he has the legal authority to do so, and then end up crying about biased courts when it gets shot down.
I feel like pardoning himself would be a bit of a conflict of interest?
[QUOTE=TurtleeyFP;52257904]Except if you read the article, the answer could be yes. Nobody's tried to preemptively pardon themselves, ever, so it hasn't quite been ruled illegal to do yet. The question is whether Trump is stupid enough to try, which is just a "probably".[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]As with similar "laws" (e.g., Murphy's law), it is intended as a humorous adage rather than the literal truth.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Judas;52257900]Short answer: no[/QUOTE] Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
How could he pardon himself if he has not yet been found guilty, and when he is found guilty (if he is) then he will no longer have the powers to pardon himself as he wont be president?
[QUOTE=Shirky;52258036]How could he pardon himself if he has not yet been found guilty, and when he is found guilty (if he is) then he will no longer have the powers to pardon himself as he wont be president?[/QUOTE] Wasn't Nixon pardoned despite not being convicted of something?
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52258049]Wasn't Nixon pardoned despite not being convicted of something?[/QUOTE] That was issued by the next president. It could go down that he issues a pardon so that he doesn't feel the consequences of his presidency when he turns back into a civilian.
[QUOTE=Shirky;52258036]How could he pardon himself if he has not yet been found guilty, and when he is found guilty (if he is) then he will no longer have the powers to pardon himself as he wont be president?[/QUOTE] he prewrites a pardon and signs it at the exact moment before the judge declares him guilty
snip dumb snipe
It would be essentially meaningless since no one would honor it and it would erode basically all faith in the system. It would likely be worse for him than not doing it.
I think he can issue himself a pardon. Whether that pardon will be deemed "valid" is unlikely, and depends mostly on whether the rest of the government wants to just shut up and move on, or drag his ass into court and punish him. Nixon's pardon was controversial at the time. Had Ford not pardoned him, Nixon would have been brought up on criminal charges, and almost certainly found guilty. Democrats had control of Congress, even before Watergate, and would have gone after him if only to erode Republican positions by association. I think whether Trump's hypothetical self-pardon will be accepted depends in a large part on when he's impeached. If it's before midterms, it has a decent chance of acceptance - although if he's become an albatross around Congress Republicans' necks, they might order a criminal investigation anyways, to distance themselves. If it's after midterms, and the Democrats sweep like they seem poised to, it would almost certainly not be accepted. In that case, I expect it would find its way to the Supreme Court. I don't know who would have standing to sue, but the Court might just say "look, clearly this is a constitutional issue, we decide constitutional issues ergo get your ass in the defendant's seat and let's decide whether you can get away with it".
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;52258137]It would be essentially meaningless since no one would honor it and it would erode basically all faith in the system. It would likely be worse for him than not doing it.[/QUOTE] Actually, I don't see it that way. Things have been quite insane of late in US politics and it's not impossible that might happen. Trump has made himself a phenomenon beyond ordinary politician and he has near-fanatic base that few have had. Good amount of people, say 25% will support him come hell or high water. There's plenty of them present even in this liberal hugbox. Most of his cabinet will unconditionally support him because their political futures and changes they want to push are entirely dependent on Trump. GOP still hasn't really shown signs of breaking p from him, and if it seems Trump can actually push through what would essentially make himself an autocrat and GOP the sole party that matters, how many republican politicians do you think would find the spine to put their country ahead of their party? Finally there's the potential issue of supreme court being lopsided in favor of Trump. So there is a genuine possibility, even if slim, that Trump may actually succeeed in what amounts to authoritarian coup. [B]NEVER[/B] again say something is impossible in politics.
Im not very educated on this topic, so i gotta ask Everyone's telling me that even when hes impeached its just like a formal acknowledgment of wrongdoing but he still remains president unless he steps down. Is this accurate? I mean what happens after impeachment?
[QUOTE=Ripvayne;52258268]Im not very educated on this topic, so i gotta ask Everyone's telling me that even when hes impeached its just like a formal acknowledgment of wrongdoing but he still remains president unless he steps down. Is this accurate? I mean what happens after impeachment?[/QUOTE] house votes to impeach with at least a 50% majoirty, sends it to the senate to hold a trial and shit and the senate has to confirm the impeachment with a 2/3 majority, and then he's removed from office
:snip: already said.
"I, Donald J. Trump, pardon myself of all treasonous wrongdoings and collusion with the Russian government. Also this whole deal with the Russians is fake news" Could see it happen tbh/
I hope the Pres can't pardon the VP tbh that'd just be a little too much
Would be fucking hilarious if he tried.
[QUOTE=TurtleeyFP;52257904]Except if you read the article, the answer could be yes. Nobody's tried to preemptively pardon themselves, ever, so it hasn't quite been ruled illegal to do yet. The question is whether Trump is stupid enough to try, which is just a "probably".[/QUOTE] it would go to the supreme court, where I can't imagine the ruling would be anything other than NO!
[QUOTE=kharkovus;52258658]why is there no late rating[/QUOTE] :v: I didn't click on the first response link before posting woops
[QUOTE=Ricenchicken;52258642]I read something that said something like "if the article title is a question the answer is almost always "No"[/QUOTE] why is there no late rating
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