EU referendum bill gets Commons approval - Polidicks

[QUOTE]A bill calling for an referendum on the UK's membership of the EU in 2017 has been approved by the House of Commons. The legislation passed its final stage in the Commons on Friday despite efforts by Labour and Lib Dems MPs to delay its passage. The bill will now move to the House of Lords for scrutiny early next year. The Tory MP behind the bill, James Wharton, said it was a "significant" milestone in the campaign to let the British public have their say. The private member's bill has been strongly supported by David Cameron, who says the UK needs to negotiate a better deal within the EU and get public backing for any new arrangements. But both his deputy Nick Clegg and Labour leader Ed Miliband have warned of the uncertainty and damage to business they say would be caused by holding a referendum[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25152028[/url]

snip apparently I'm dumb for forgetting the difference between the EU and the Eurozone

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43017415]I was under the impression that many British don't want to join the EU completely.[/QUOTE] The original idea in the 70's was to join for free trade, then it crept its way in over time.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43017415]I was under the impression that many British don't want to join the EU completely.[/QUOTE] Uhh we've been in the EU completely for years, you're probably thinking of the eurozone which is the countries with the Euro which most people don't particularly want. This referendum is to leave the EU which anyone with a working brain doesn't want to happen but since it's being left to the common person who thinks that them thur foreigners is stealin our jerbs we're probably fucked.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43017415]I was under the impression that many British don't want to join the EU completely.[/QUOTE] Most people have never bothered to research what it means to be an EU member and simply regurgitate the bullshit that they read in the Euroskeptic tabloids.

The Lib Dems who are opposing this are the same Lib Dems who were elected on the promise not to raise Uni Tuition Fees and the same Lib Dems who were elected on their promise of an EU Referendum. [img]http://labourlist.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Clegg-referendum-page-001-353x500.jpg[/img] Scum.

[QUOTE=markg06;43017515]Uhh we've been in the EU completely for years, you're probably thinking of the eurozone which is the countries with the Euro which most people don't particularly want. This referendum is to leave the EU which anyone with a working brain doesn't want to happen but since it's being left to the common person who thinks that them thur foreigners is stealin our jerbs we're probably fucked.[/QUOTE] Oh, whoops. I always get those two mixed, sorry

[QUOTE=Scrappa;43017526]The Lib Dems who are opposing this are the same Lib Dems who were elected on the promise not to raise Uni Tuition Fees and the same Lib Dems who were elected on their promise of an EU Referendum. [img]http://labourlist.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Clegg-referendum-page-001-353x500.jpg[/img] Scum.[/QUOTE] Wow I had no idea the Lib Dems ever wanted an in/out referendum But from what I can tell, [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8388475.stm]they ditched that policy[/url] months before the election and [url=http://network.libdems.org.uk/manifesto2010/libdem_manifesto_2010.pdf]their manifesto[/url] called for "an in/out referendum the next time a British government signs up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU." What we got in the end was the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Act_2011]European Union Act 2011[/url] which commits the government to a referendum [I]on the treaty[/I] the next time a new EU treaty is written - rather than an in/out referendum. So I guess the Lib Dems still done fucked up

It's a complete waste of time and money having this referendum because it's not going to happen

[QUOTE=markg06;43017515]Uhh we've been in the EU completely for years, you're probably thinking of the eurozone which is the countries with the Euro which most people don't particularly want. This referendum is to leave the EU which anyone with a working brain doesn't want to happen but since it's being left to the common person who thinks that them thur foreigners is stealin our jerbs we're probably fucked.[/QUOTE] Maybe people would listen to what you have to say if you didn't call them common people without a working brain.

[QUOTE=Wiggles;43017522]Most people have never bothered to research what it means to be an EU member and simply regurgitate the bullshit that they read in the Euroskeptic tabloids.[/QUOTE] This is why people shouldn't be allowed to make the decision. This is pretty much against my usual stance on democracy but sometimes people are too dumb to make a decision. The wider public cannot be trusted to make such an important choice, especially when the (euroskeptic) media is allowed to pedal complete and utter bullshit that people believe straight away.

I have to clarify on behalf of most Eurosceptics that no-one is against the economic benefits of the EU, numerous as they are, they are against the political integration of the EU. I personally don't hate the EU, it's a great trade block that does a lot of good for everyone involved but all I want is to keep my courts and my parliament the highest authority in my country. Why is that so unreasonable? [sp]Pooling Sovereignty isn't an argument, it still gives another body more power than ours[/sp]

[QUOTE=The mouse;43019327]I have to clarify on behalf of most Eurosceptics that no-one is against the economic benefits of the EU, numerous as they are, they are against the political integration of the EU. I personally don't hate the EU, it's a great trade block that does a lot of good for everyone involved but all I want is to keep my courts and my parliament the highest authority in my country. Why is that so unreasonable? [sp]Pooling Sovereignty isn't an argument, it still gives another body more power than ours[/sp][/QUOTE] Perhaps the politics of the EU would be more in our favour if we didn't veto a lot of things that they try to accomplish.

[QUOTE=The mouse;43019327]I have to clarify on behalf of most Eurosceptics that no-one is against the economic benefits of the EU, numerous as they are, they are against the political integration of the EU. I personally don't hate the EU, it's a great trade block that does a lot of good for everyone involved but all I want is to keep my courts and my parliament the highest authority in my country. Why is that so unreasonable? [sp]Pooling Sovereignty isn't an argument, it still gives another body more power than ours[/sp][/QUOTE] But the fact the UK court system is subservient to another court has nothing to do with the EU.. The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU (but is a commonly held euromyth). The ECJ (another court people think the UK is subservient to) [B]only[/B] rules on EU law, cases are passed to them for opinion and then handed back to where they came from. As for parliament, it is the highest authority; they can veto EU proposals (but no one seems to do it??). Admittedly there should be more powers for national parliaments but its not like some guy who no one has ever heard of is sitting in Brussels instilling his whim on the UK.

[QUOTE=The mouse;43019327]I have to clarify on behalf of most Eurosceptics that no-one is against the economic benefits of the EU, numerous as they are, they are against the political integration of the EU. I personally don't hate the EU, it's a great trade block that does a lot of good for everyone involved but all I want is to keep my courts and my parliament the highest authority in my country. Why is that so unreasonable? [sp]Pooling Sovereignty isn't an argument, it still gives another body more power than ours[/sp][/QUOTE] This better sums up how I feel than anything I could type.

Why does Britain need to be on it's own again? We're a part of Europe and going to become increasingly irrelevant in the future if the EU got stronger without us in it.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43019489]Why does Britain need to be on it's own again? We're a part of Europe and going to become increasingly irrelevant in the future if the EU got stronger without us in it.[/QUOTE] Because clearly the EU lets loads of eastern European immigrants in who only come to claim benefits or something. Also because it allows people in Brussels to determine the bendy'ness of bananas? Look at all these compelling reasons to leave what kind of amounts to one of the remaining super powers.

[QUOTE=Jsm;43019232]This is why people shouldn't be allowed to make the decision. This is pretty much against my usual stance on democracy but sometimes people are too dumb to make a decision. The wider public cannot be trusted to make such an important choice, especially when the (euroskeptic) media is allowed to pedal complete and utter bullshit that people believe straight away.[/QUOTE] When you call the average person 'too dumb' to decide their own fate you just sound like a massive oxbridge twat, that isn't likely to make them want to listen to what you have to say.

[QUOTE=lazyguy;43018544]Maybe people would listen to what you have to say if you didn't call them common people without a working brain.[/QUOTE] Maybe they should learn about the EU then, considering it's kind of a big deal.

[QUOTE=Scrappa;43019580]When you call the average person 'too dumb' to decide their own fate you just sound like a massive oxbridge twat, that isn't likely to make them want to listen to what you have to say.[/QUOTE] Its kind of true though, its not that they are dumb is that's just that the media is allowed to get away with misinforming people. People believe the media without question and don't look up the facts themselves. If people are going to make an extremely important decision about a country they should be correctly informed about the facts or not make the decision. An in/out decision would arguably be one of the most important decisions the UK has made in many many years. As such it shouldn't be done by people who are misinformed. This includes the (very few) misinformed politicians as well. [editline]29th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=markg06;43019609]Maybe they should learn about the EU then, considering it's kind of a big deal.[/QUOTE] This. If you are going to be against something so strongly you should understand exactly what it is you are against. Same if you are supporting it.

[QUOTE=Jsm;43019656]Its kind of true though, its not that they are dumb is that's just that the media is allowed to get away with misinforming people. People believe the media without question and don't look up the facts themselves. If people are going to make an extremely important decision about a country they should be correctly informed about the facts or not make the decision. An in/out decision would arguably be one of the most important decisions the UK has made in many many years. As such it shouldn't be done by people who are misinformed. [/QUOTE] If you think they're misled you should say that though and maybe they will want to listen instead of thinking "well this guys a cunt" and ignoring you when you've called them 'too dumb'. [QUOTE=markg06;43019609]Maybe they should learn about the EU then, considering it's kind of a big deal.[/QUOTE] The reason they don't learn about the EU is because holier-than-thou snobs like you call them too stupid to understand or as you elegantly put it 'common people without a working brain'. This is exactly what the poster you replied to had just said and it seems you completely ignored his post.

[QUOTE=Scrappa;43017526]The Lib Dems who are opposing this are the same Lib Dems who were elected on the promise not to raise Uni Tuition Fees and the same Lib Dems who were elected on their promise of an EU Referendum. [img]http://labourlist.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Clegg-referendum-page-001-353x500.jpg[/img] Scum.[/QUOTE] Yeah but if you applied critical thinking to anything the Lib Dems said before the election you'd have realised it was fanciful bollocks and never have voted for them in the first place. Then you wouldn't have been surprised when everything they said turned out to be fanciful bollocks and you'd have understood perfectly why they did do what they did. Either way, as I've posted many times before voting Lib Dem in 2010 was an act of extreme stupidity.

[QUOTE=Matriax;43019842]Yeah but if you applied critical thinking to anything the Lib Dems said before the election you'd have realised it was fanciful bollocks and never have voted for them in the first place. Then you wouldn't have been surprised when everything they said turned out to be fanciful bollocks and you'd have understood perfectly why they did do what they did. Either way, as I've posted many times before voting Lib Dem in 2010 was an act of extreme stupidity.[/QUOTE] I feel like a complete fucking sucker for joining the Lib Dems and helping them win North Devon again, probably rightly so. You just naturally expect politicians, who are always in the public eye, to honour their promises especially when they're on such massive topics of debate like the EU.

[QUOTE=Coffee;43019441]Perhaps the politics of the EU would be more in our favour if we didn't veto a lot of things that they try to accomplish.[/QUOTE] We veto because the politics of the EU isn't in our favour, It isn't in our favour because we Veto it. You must see the problem with this relationship. [QUOTE=Jsm;43019461]But the fact the UK court system is subservient to another court has nothing to do with the EU.. The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU (but is a commonly held euromyth). The ECJ (another court people think the UK is subservient to) [B]only[/B] rules on EU law, cases are passed to them for opinion and then handed back to where they came from. As for parliament, it is the highest authority; they can veto EU proposals (but no one seems to do it??). Admittedly there should be more powers for national parliaments but its not like some guy who no one has ever heard of is sitting in Brussels instilling his whim on the UK.[/QUOTE] You are entirely correct. However the ECJ can bring penalties and fines against countries within the EU who break EU protocol or don't fulfill EU law. So they aren't entirely advisory. The reason that no country veto's EU legislation is that for the last 10 years or so many of the governments of Europe were pro-Europe. It's only recently that the Eurosceptic movement has gained much traction. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;43019489]Why does Britain need to be on it's own again? We're a part of Europe and going to become increasingly irrelevant in the future if the EU got stronger without us in it.[/QUOTE] This is why as a Eurosceptic I consider my position so tragic. I would be so in favour of the EU if it were wholly nonpolitical and only worked as an intergovernmental organisation for facilitating trade. But it has forced me to oppose it by becoming supranational [QUOTE=Jsm;43019509]Because clearly the EU lets loads of eastern European immigrants in who only come to claim benefits or something. Also because it allows people in Brussels to determine the bendy'ness of bananas? Look at all these compelling reasons to leave what kind of amounts to one of the remaining super powers.[/QUOTE] I'm actually not anti-immigration. I acknowledge that there is a net benefit of immigration in this country, however having tougher immigration requirements would filter out the minority of bad ones and keep the majority of good ones. Wanting strict immigration isn't xenophobic, it's actually pro immigrant as it means that (in theory) the tabloids will have less to complain about them if they all want to work as opposed to most of them.

[QUOTE=The mouse;43020250]This is why as a Eurosceptic I consider my position so tragic. I would be so in favour of the EU if it were wholly nonpolitical and only worked as an intergovernmental organisation for facilitating trade. But it has forced me to oppose it by becoming supranational[/QUOTE] Why do we need to be separate from the rest of Europe?

[QUOTE=Jsm;43019461]But the fact the UK court system is subservient to another court has nothing to do with the EU.. The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU (but is a commonly held euromyth). The ECJ (another court people think the UK is subservient to) [B]only[/B] rules on EU law, cases are passed to them for opinion and then handed back to where they came from. As for parliament, it is the highest authority; they can veto EU proposals (but no one seems to do it??). Admittedly there should be more powers for national parliaments but its not like some guy who no one has ever heard of is sitting in Brussels instilling his whim on the UK.[/QUOTE] The ECJ rules on European law, but European law supersedes British law.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43020301]Why do we need to be separate from the rest of Europe?[/QUOTE] It depends on what you mean by that. Politically we have to be separate from Europe because like every other country in Europe we have our own issues that we should deal with ourselves to ensure than they are handled in our best interests and so that the majority of people support the solution. We have our own ideas of how things should be done such as Law and Democracy that are very much different from the rest of Europe. We have an island mentality for better or for worse that makes us feel different from the rest of Europe regardless of whether we're part of it, so the EU will never be as popular here as it is throughout the rest of Europe. Politically I see no reason to be with Europe,. Economically we don't I see no reason why we should be separate from Europe, free trade is a good thing. I'm not trying to make an argument, I'm just stating my point of view.

[QUOTE=Matriax;43019842]Yeah but if you applied critical thinking to anything the Lib Dems said before the election you'd have realised it was fanciful bollocks and never have voted for them in the first place. Then you wouldn't have been surprised when everything they said turned out to be fanciful bollocks and you'd have understood perfectly why they did do what they did. Either way, as I've posted many times before voting Lib Dem in 2010 was an act of extreme stupidity.[/QUOTE] Isn't the majority of what most politicians say fanciful bollocks?

[QUOTE=Coffee;43020698]Isn't the majority of what most politicians say fanciful bollocks?[/QUOTE] The public are way ahead of politicians in many issues, and I think this is one of them. The number of small businesses for example, has risen quite sharply in recent years, and many on them find the EU far too restrictive. Which ever way the vote goes won't make much difference anyway. The UK human rights record will remain strong and trade will continue due to the free market. India and China are the main interests anyway.

[QUOTE=Scrappa;43019806]If you think they're misled you should say that though and maybe they will want to listen instead of thinking "well this guys a cunt" and ignoring you when you've called them 'too dumb'. The reason they don't learn about the EU is because holier-than-thou snobs like you call them too stupid to understand or as you elegantly put it 'common people without a working brain'. This is exactly what the poster you replied to had just said and it seems you completely ignored his post.[/QUOTE] You are right, I should have used better words. I posted in haste and didn't give much thought to it. They aren't dumb. No one is dumb enough not to understand the EU if they tried, anyway. It is just a case of people being misinformed or not knowing as you say. For what its worth, I do try to inform people who are misinformed about the EU. Usually in a less dickish way than I have at the start of this thread. I still hold that if the majority of people are misinformed (not dumb) or ignorant to the facts of something they shouldn't be allowed to decide on that matter. It doesn't matter if they are just "average people" or politicians. Anyone making a decision for a country should be informed on the matter.