'Turkish and Maroccan youths do not feel part of the Netherlands"
65 replies, posted
[quote][b]Many young people of Turkish and Moroccan origin do not feel part of Dutch society.[/b]
This is one of the findings of a survey of some 3,000 non-Western immigrants that the Social and Cultural Planning Office (SCP) has published Wednesday.
About half of the Turkish and Moroccan Dutch identify more as Turkish or Moroccan and often exclusively deal with people of the same origin. Despite their "new" passport they do not feel, or just slightly see themself as Dutch. They are relatively often negative about native Dutch and the natives perceive migrants.
[b]Exclusion[/b]
Among young people of Turkish and Moroccan origin lives a strong and widely shared sense of exclusion. They feel put apart, not seen as individuals, but only as a member of an immigrant group and as a Muslim, the survey concludes.
Among these young people is a strong distrust of the Dutch media, national politics and the police. This adds to the feeling of being not part of the Dutch society.
The reason for the SCP-study was that it was commissioned by the Ministry Of Social Affairs and Employment after a poll showed that there was widespread 'understanding' or even 'sympathy' amongst Turkish youths for Islamic State (IS) and religiously motivated violence.
[b]Islamic State[/b]
In the SCP study more than 90 percent of the Turkish and Moroccan immigrants (adults & youths) say they have no understanding for young people traveling abroad to fight for IS or for those who use violence for their faith.
Among some 120 youths questioned it was clear a slightly higher sense of 'understanding' or 'sympathy' was present than with the adults. But also among young people, the overwhelming majority of more than 80 percent says they have no understanding for IS and religiously motivated violence.
Minister Lodewijk Asscher (Integration) is reassured by the investigation into his belief '' how important it is to see each other as individuals. '' He called it a '' reassurance '' that the majority of Turkish and Moroccan Dutch people have no understanding of religiously motivated violence.[/quote]
[url=http://www.nu.nl/binnenland/4183900/turkse-en-marokkaanse-jongeren-voelen-zich-geen-deel-van-nederland.html]Source[/url]
[b]My own view:[/b]
Quite worrying that they focus on the majority that has no sympathy or understanding, but that they seem to brush-off that amongst the polled youths 20% say they DO have understanding for religious violence, and that amongst adults+youths there's still 10% who have sympathy or understanding.
As I said before, it's becoming more and more clear integration is failing. I'd say more effort needs to be put in strict-integration/ near-assimilation.
Luckily a very large group agrees that religious violence is wrong, and the problem is quite contained however this is just a really smart part of succesful integration.
Many immigrants hold Dutch passports but still live completely segregated, up to the point where even 2nd and 3rd generation youths do not identify as Dutch because they mainly socialize with other immigrants, and go to segregated islamic schools.
It's a shame that these people don't feel included in a country that took them in and not trust the politics and police, but if they remain passive about it then it's a matter of time before some of them will do something drastic.
[quote][b]Islamic State[/b]
In the SCP study more than 90 percent of the Turkish and Moroccan immigrants (adults & youths) say they have no understanding for young people traveling abroad to fight for IS or for those who use violence for their faith.
Among some 120 youths questioned it was clear a slightly higher sense of 'understanding' or 'sympathy' was present than with the adults. But also among young people, the overwhelming majority of more than 80 percent says they have no understanding for IS and religiously motivated violence.[/quote]
It's great to see that most of them don't condone or have any indication that they are open to Daesh,
but i fear for the ones that do like rumblr said.
And if they only socialize with each other and not with the native people, then they are only contributing to their own problems. It's not everyone else but them that has to fix their problems.
[QUOTE=EskillV2;49339231]It's a shame that these people don't feel included in a country that took them in and not trust the politics and police, but if they remain passive about it then it's a matter of time before some of them will do something drastic.
It's great to see that most of them don't condone or have any indication that they are open to Daesh,
but i fear for the ones that do like rumblr said.
[b]And if they only socialize with each other and not with the native people, then they are only contributing to their own problems. It's not everyone else but them that has to fix their problems.[/b][/QUOTE]
Partly true. But you can't blame them a 100%.
It all begins with attitude ofcourse, and for that they can be faulted.
However, the governmental policies are to blame way more than anything or anyone.
Once they entered the country, they were met with a "you're incredibly welcome, so is your culture, we will accept you totally"-attitude because everyone wanted to be progessive and tolerant. Everyone feared being called a racist, since they themselves were all very quick to call out others for criticism.
This resulted in all immigrant-requests being met, and all cultural-incompatiblities being solved in favor of their own culture, again under the guise of progressiveness and tolerance.
[quote][b]In practise this ment:[/b]
[b]1.[/b] That mosques were built in immense numbers to supply the religious demand. Creating a barrier between the mostly secular natives, and the now still heavily religious migrants.
[b]2.[/b] That they were granted rights for islamic schools. Creating a further segregational barrier between migrants and natives. Most of them never met in schools since they were simply on different schools.
The second problem was and still is, that these schools offer a dramatically lower quality of education.This means that immigrant children attending these schools are already at a 0-1 loss, putting them at an disadventage in the workforce.[/quote]
and I could name many many many more instances of things going wrong like this, which I believe is causing the problems with immigrants.
You cannot take in people from a culture/background that is socially, economically and religiously backward 50 years or more, then let them free with no coaching and expect them to lead effective lives in this, to them, alien system.
We should've been strict, and should've awaited succesfull-integration before giving them a full-citizenship. Because now it's largely too late. There is a 3rd generation of islamic-cultured immigrants here, that still do not feel at home, still feel little to no connection, and still are overly welfare dependant, criminal and jobless.
Now nobody wins but at least we were progressive and tolerant....
The people who are progressive and tolerant don't give a shit about these immigrants. They only care about the good feeling they get from doing what they think is "The right thing".
They don't care that they are actively causing all this misery, ethnic friction, and are draining the welfare state.
This is also why so much debate is still to be had on this particular topic.
People on this forum who think I dislike or even hate immigrants, just for being critical is just ignorant.
As long as we can't rid ourselves of that ignorance, we're fucked, and so are the immigrants.
[quote]Among these young people is a strong distrust of the Dutch media, national politics and the police. This adds to the feeling of being not part of the Dutch society.[/quote]
Is anybody really surprised by this? [url=http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x/epdf]Distrust comes naturally with diversity[/url]. Europe has traditionally been comprised of homogeneous societies-- certainly of ones with radically different histories (in terms of religion, politics, and ethnic constructs) compared against Turkey and Morocco (hell, against the Middle East in general). When you start adding a bunch of very different people into that mix and start breaking up that homogeneity, of course there's going to be problems with tension. People cling to things that are familiar and don't like things that are strange. You're breaking down a natural social solidarity that's been developed over centuries.
It's not impossible problem to fix. The Dutch people are going to have to reevaluate what exactly Dutch identity means and remold it in such a way that these people can be incorporated. That, or come up with some other solution that forces them to assimilate. Either way, they can't stay separate like this. Things are going to stay problematic and tense otherwise in the long run.
What's wrong with European states not integrating their immigrants and refugees?
God, even the United States is better and we have Republicans and Donald Trump to deal with. We integrate people like it's nobody's business.
[QUOTE=person11;49339545]What's wrong with European states not integrating their immigrants and refugees?
God, even the United States is better and we have Republicans and Donald Trump to deal with. We integrate people like it's nobody's business.[/QUOTE]
The United States has an advantage that religious and political views aren't that different between them and Mexico since they're right by eachother
[QUOTE=Govna;49339531]Is anybody really surprised by this? [url=http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x/epdf]Distrust comes naturally with diversity[/url]. Europe has traditionally been comprised of homogeneous societies-- certainly of ones with radically different histories (in terms of religion, politics, and ethnic constructs) compared against Turkey and Morocco (hell, against the Middle East in general). When you start adding a bunch of very different people into that mix and start breaking up that homogeneity, of course there's going to be problems with tension. People cling to things that are familiar and don't like things that are strange. You're breaking down a natural social solidarity that's been developed over centuries.
It's not impossible problem to fix. [b]The Dutch people are going to have to reevaluate what exactly Dutch identity means and remold it in such a way that these people can be incorporated.[/b] That, or come up with some other solution that forces them to assimilate. Either way, they can't stay separate like this. Things are going to stay problematic and tense otherwise in the long run.[/QUOTE]
No way, absolutely not. There is no reason the Dutch society should be the one to adjust itself to the people who don't fancy it's culture and politics the way it is. It's their fault and they should be the ones to adjust themselves.
Isn't that what integrating and assimilation is all about?
The problem is crystal clear in my eyes; if you get a bunch of Turks and Moroccans in who don't fancy how it works around here, then they'll raise Turkish and Morrocan kids who won't fancy it much either. I say this as a 2nd generation immigrant myself. (however I don't know why but me and my brothers have become everything except like our parents and the majority of the Turk youth)
The parents are the once who need to get their shit together and realize that they aren't just here "temporarily" and will still inevitably return to Turkey/Morocco, and I can assure you alot of them think like that, and quite a few even do return back to their motherland.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO106P4izqA[/url] <- 40 min documentary.
Its not really a Muslim thing. Europe doesn't have communities integrate and thats a problem.
[QUOTE=person11;49339545]What's wrong with European states not integrating their immigrants and refugees?
God, even the United States is better and we have Republicans and Donald Trump to deal with. We integrate people like it's nobody's business.[/QUOTE]
The USA has a longstanding history of accepting refugees and immigrants, hence 'bring me your huddled masses' and the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island, etc etc. It's kind of similar with the UK- the advantage of the term 'British' being so nebulous is that everybody feels a little bit 'British' regardless of what they actually feel- and we're used to accepting people so it's not very new to us. I think in the rest of Northern Europe, multiculturalism is a newer concept which hasn't had as much time to be tweaked and adjusted to suit the local culture and values, so they're struggling with it somewhat more, but that's my somewhat-biased opinion as a Brit.
Yeah that makes sense. As an American child of immigrants it seems so simple to me, like, oh just integrate them easy
but yeah it's more complicated than that
[QUOTE=Jamsponge;49339725]The USA has a longstanding history of accepting refugees and immigrants, hence 'bring me your huddled masses' and the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island, etc etc. It's kind of similar with the UK- the advantage of the term 'British' being so nebulous is that everybody feels a little bit 'British' regardless of what they actually feel- and we're used to accepting people so it's not very new to us. I think in the rest of Northern Europe, multiculturalism is a newer concept which hasn't had as much time to be tweaked and adjusted to suit the local culture and values, so they're struggling with it somewhat more, but that's my somewhat-biased opinion as a Brit.[/QUOTE]
Its not the Europeans fault. Immigrants/refugees are choosing to live alongside people like them.
In the US the exact same happened and still happens. However in America there is more mixture and having to leave your community to go to other places.
[editline]17th December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=person11;49339752]Yeah that makes sense. As an American child of immigrants it seems so simple to me, like, oh just integrate them easy
but yeah it's more complicated than that[/QUOTE]
No, you have to actively want to integrate to integrate.
I'm not sure that is true. We take in the same refugees as Europe every time a war or disaster happens. Ours end up integrated and yours don't? What's the difference between the Bosnians who showed up to America and the ones who went to the rest of Europe? There is none.
I'm mostly guessing though.
Integration doesn't happen over night, it usually takes 3-4 generations to become fully integrated.
It's fully understandable why they feel disenfranchised, but that's been the case for centuries. Hell look at america, in the Kate 1800's/Early 1900's there was mass immigration. People of Irish and Italian decent were treated as second class citizens, and once again it took a few generations for those populations to identify as American.
[QUOTE=Xephio;49339659]No way, absolutely not. There is no reason the Dutch society should be the one to adjust itself to the people who don't fancy it's culture and politics the way it is. It's their fault and they should be the ones to adjust themselves.
Isn't that what integrating and assimilation is all about?
The problem is crystal clear in my eyes; if you get a bunch of Turks and Moroccans in who don't fancy how it works around here, then they'll raise Turkish and Morrocan kids who won't fancy it much either. I say this as a 2nd generation immigrant myself. (however I don't know why but me and my brothers have become everything except like our parents and the majority of the Turk youth)
The parents are the once who need to get their shit together and realize that they aren't just here "temporarily" and will still inevitably return to Turkey/Morocco, and I can assure you alot of them think like that, and quite a few even do return back to their motherland.[/QUOTE]
Just so we're clear, I agree with you completely. And that's my point when I say then that there will have to be another method used that will "force them to assimilate". Either they'll have to assimilate, or they'll have to be deported. There's a point in time where it becomes ridiculous that natives should be expected to accommodate them at the expense of their own way of life. I would expect nothing less if I were to go to their countries, and that's how simple this could and should be.
part of it may be up to the way they're treated in society, but muslim culture itself is pretty exclusive, sort of like jewish culture to some extent, it encourages them to socialize among themselves instead of reaching out, they live in their own mini cultures and stick to themselves.
here in america maybe its harder for these groups to completely isolate themselves, maybe its because our workers are very spread out or maybe because our immigrants tend to get dispersed these days instead of clumped up in one region, there are outliers like little havana in miami but outside of urban centers there isn't much concentration
[url]http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21684143-how-muslim-refugees-bosnia-transformed-corner-midwest-doing-just-fine[/url] example of American's being good at integrating Bosnian refugees
it's behind a paywall so here is a quote
[quote]Thanks to the industrious Bosnians, an entire neighbourhood in southern St Louis, Bevo Mill, was transformed from a crime-ridden area pockmarked by abandoned buildings into a decent quarter with small shops and restaurants with vowel-poor names: Stari Grad, Grbic. Today more than 50,000 Bosnian refugees and their children live in the St Louis area. They have built two mosques and set up a chamber of commerce. Their community has lower crime and unemployment rates than among the general population. And they are better off: Jack Strauss of St Louis University has found that immigrants in the area, many of them Bosnians, earn on average $83,000 a year, or 25% more than those who were born in America. They are more inclined to start a business, three times more likely to be skilled rather than unskilled and much more likely to have an advanced degree. In general, immigrants are also less likely than the native-born to receive food stamps or cash assistance from the government. Mr Strauss concludes that St Louis now would be doing much better, compared with other big cities, if it had attracted more immigrants. (The immigrant population makes up 4.5% of the total; in Chicago it is 21%.)[/quote]
[editline]17th December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sableye;49340241]part of it may be up to the way they're treated in society, but muslim culture itself is pretty exclusive, sort of like jewish culture to some extent, it encourages them to socialize among themselves instead of reaching out[/QUOTE]
that honestly depends on which Jews and where they are going
orthodox jews don't integrate, meaning sometimes not even the USA can successfully integrate people
but most jews moved to cities and took jobs in hollywood or as doctors and lawyers, etc and you can't tell they are jews unless you ask (but don't)
Maybe they don't feel a part of Dutch society due to ostracization from people like the OP who spend literally all day long posting things about how bad immigrants are.
[QUOTE=person11;49340246][url]http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21684143-how-muslim-refugees-bosnia-transformed-corner-midwest-doing-just-fine[/url] example of American's being good at integrating Bosnian refugees
it's behind a paywall so here is a quote
[/QUOTE]
im curious though if their status is because they recieved great services once they arrived or because they had a lot of will to do great, but my dad worked for a company started by an iraqi refugee and basically his whole family pooled their money and bought a hotel franchise with all the aid they got after being resettled here, generally US refugees get a lot of help from social services and other charities as well as government help
The article does not go into detail, mostly referencing hard work on the part of Bosnians. But whether it's social services or a sense of community, etc., we just seem to integrate people better than countries like France or the Netherlands
[QUOTE=Sableye;49340241]part of it may be up to the way they're treated in society, but muslim culture itself is pretty exclusive, sort of like jewish culture to some extent, it encourages them to socialize among themselves instead of reaching out, they live in their own mini cultures and stick to themselves.
here in america maybe its harder for these groups to completely isolate themselves, maybe its because our workers are very spread out or maybe because our immigrants tend to get dispersed these days instead of clumped up in one region, there are outliers like little havana in miami but outside of urban centers there isn't much concentration[/QUOTE]
if anecdotal evidence is worth anything, I noticed that among my relatives (muslim immigrants and their first generation kids) want to integrate into society pretty fast. it makes it easier getting jobs and just overall being happier. of course they will have their own families and extended families that they talk to, but they interact with pretty much everyone. more than anything though, children of immigrants (again, to the ones I know) themselves have zero trouble adapting in schools (at least here it seems a bit bizarre for people having friends that are of only his or her background. they notice that they are missing a big chunk of society)
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;49340141]Integration doesn't happen over night, it usually takes 3-4 generations to become fully integrated.[/QUOTE]
In my experience it only really takes one if you care to try or just live in a diverse community where you aren't going to a (parents language/culture) school.
Also, its weird how people say "diverse" when referring to communities that are practically 100% one group. Its strange. What I mean by diverse when I said earlier is actual diversity.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49340340]In my experience it only really takes one if you care to try or just live in a diverse community where you aren't going to a (parents language/culture) school.
Also, its weird how people say "diverse" when referring to communities that are practically 100% one group. Its strange. What I mean by diverse when I said earlier is actual diversity.[/QUOTE]
That sounds about right. If you really care to integrate, it will happen. Some places will be much more difficult than others of course. Unless as you said its already diverse and then its just the norm anyway.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;49340141]Integration doesn't happen over night, it usually takes 3-4 generations to become fully integrated.
It's fully understandable why they feel disenfranchised, but that's been the case for centuries. Hell look at america, in the Kate 1800's/Early 1900's there was mass immigration. People of Irish and Italian decent were treated as second class citizens, and once again it took a few generations for those populations to identify as American.[/QUOTE]
Not to sure about that. My best friends grandparents on the mothers side are from Serbia. Experienced lot's of nasty shit during WWII. When they moved to the US, they did a pretty damn good job of integrating. They still have some old-school tendencies (pit-roasted sheep or pig), but you can't even tell that their daughter (friends mom) is first generation.
It's anecdotal, but I've heard and met a lot of people who have integrated very quickly.
Europeans love to pretend this isn't entirely their fault but multiculturalism has worked just fine in the US and Canada. It starts with not treating immigrants as 2nd class citizens.
A few years ago my friends and i backpacked from pudapest to amsterdam and it was 3 white dudes and our canadian born indian friend. You wouldn't believe the amount of dirty looks that our indian friend got. Also, we almost got into a bar fight in munich because some douche bag decided to pour his beer on our friend by "accident" while laughing and looking back at his friends.
Also, wasn't there a study a while back where the researchers sent out the same resume with native and immigrant sounding names to a fuck ton of jobs in europe and the immigrant was 80% less likely to get a call back?
Without defending bigots - of which Europe has its fair share, Europe itself is not a single country. The cultures of the different countries maintain themselves due to lack of a common default language spoken by a majority. Sure, everyone speaks English (more or less) but that's not the same as everyone being born into a majority-english-speaking country. People in the US and Canada will be more accustomed to sharing differences between states and provinces and having a common national identity - shared through language - whereas Europe doesn't have the feeling of a common national identity since we don't quite so readily talk to each other across borders - so the situation is different. The bureaucrats are working on it here though and within a few generations, the single European identity will have been sold to us. If they can centralize control, they can consolidate power for themselves,
The same thing that happens in the US and Canada with regard to shared language but varied cultures also happens in Latin America - people are used to the migration of people from different cultures - but with a shared language (Spanish and to an extent Portuguese) - and therefore are less likely to be bigoted when it comes to accepting immigrants from other cultures too.
[QUOTE=DuCT;49340416]Not to sure about that. My best friends grandparents on the mothers side are from Serbia. Experienced lot's of nasty shit during WWII. When they moved to the US, they did a pretty damn good job of integrating. They still have some old-school tendencies (pit-roasted sheep or pig), but you can't even tell that their daughter (friends mom) is first generation.
It's anecdotal, but I've heard and met a lot of people who have integrated very quickly.[/QUOTE]
It was more or less the same for my great grand parents on my mothers side. They came here in the late 1890's and my great grandfather refused to teach my grandmother and her siblings german. It's not to say that he didn't keep aspects of germany with him, He wanted them to be American.
The difference though is he wanted to be American, he came to this country not because he needed a job or because he was fleeing from war. He came here because he wanted to be free, and to give his family the most opportunity to succeeded outside of the structer set by German/Prussian politics at the time.
As an ethnic looking mixed race guy in Sweden, I can attest to the surpressed collective racism that is still present. Things like people clutching their bags extra hard when passing you on the street or following you around in stores are indicative of this. Last week I was literally spat on by a random guy. These are just small things which have no personal effect on me, but they do happen frequently enough to show some sort of structural issue. I'm born in Sweden and take full part in "Swedish culture", but because of my skin color I am not considered as such.
Great. Maybe its an incentive for them to fuck off.
How can they integrate when they are concentrated in single areas and end up forming their own Enclaves.
I also think immigrants creating enclaves is the problem. But I don't think that's very different from what it is like in the United States, altough some people in this thread stated America is the recent succes story of immigration. For example, some cities like Los Angeles also have very large Hispanic enclaves where many people don't even bother to learn to speak English.
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