Teenager Dies After Israel Gay Pride Stabbing - Polidicks

[QUOTE]A 16-year-old girl has died after being stabbed by a homophobic extremist during a gay pride parade in Jerusalem. Shira Banki had been stabbed in the back, one of six people attacked during Thursday's event. Hadar Elboim of Hadassah, a spokesman for the hospital where Shira died, said her organs would now be donated to help others. Her attacker was later identified as Yishai Schlissel, an ultra-Orthodox Jewish man who had only been released from prison three weeks earlier and had spoken out against the parade after regaining his freedom. He had been serving a ten-year jail sentence after attacking a gay pride parade in 2005, injuring three people. Shira's family said in a statement that the "magical" teenager had been "murdered because she was a happy 16-year-old - full of life and love - who came to express her support for her friends' right to live as they choose". They added: "For no good reason and, because of evil, stupidity and negligence, the life of our beautiful flower was cut short. "Bad things happen to good people and a very bad thing happened to our amazing girl."[/QUOTE] [url]http://news.sky.com/story/1529293/teenager-dies-after-israel-gay-pride-stabbing[/url] A very sad update to the news story from a few days ago.

The Old Testament clearly condemns homosexuality, but does it instruct its followers to kill homosexuals? This is still an awful crime, but I'm wondering whether he was justified in his religion to do so.

I think it does, actually [QUOTE=Leviticus 20:13]"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them,"[/QUOTE]

Leviticus is garbage. It also says you should burn anything a woman in her period touches, not sleep under the same roof as her, and bring two turtles to the temple to "purify" herself.

[QUOTE=Senscith;48361804]Leviticus is garbage. It also says you should burn anything a woman in her period touches, not sleep under the same roof as her, and bring two turtles to the temple to "purify" herself.[/QUOTE] Jews don't believe in Jesus, so they should still be under the Old Testament law. That's as much as I know from my Christian upbringing. I'm not for sure what developments the Jews have had in the past 2000 years.

[QUOTE=Senscith;48361804]Leviticus is garbage. It also says you should burn anything a woman in her period touches, not sleep under the same roof as her, and bring two turtles to the temple to "purify" herself.[/QUOTE] Still in the bible.

[QUOTE=MatheusMCardoso;48361839]Still in the bible.[/QUOTE] Still in the old testament

[QUOTE=elevate;48361824]Jews don't believe in Jesus, so they should still be under the Old Testament law. That's as much as I know from my Christian upbringing. I'm not for sure what developments the Jews have had in the past 2000 years.[/QUOTE] Jews don't believe\support anything to do with christianity or Islam, they see them as a corruption of their religion that have nothing to do with them. Christianity adhere to everything the jews believe in but has been distorted with influence from paganism and they believe in Jesus. e.g. Christmas, allowance of eating pork, blood products etc. Islam follows christianity and judaism, muhammad is supposed to be the last messenger of god, they believe in jewish doctorine and christianity since it's essentially an extended copy of both. They don't believe jesus was the son of god however but revere him as a holy messenger\prophet of god. When it comes to died of a muslim, what is considered halal is essentially a lesser form of kosher, a muslim is allowed to eat kosher, between the two there are far less restrictions with halal but the method of slaughter is essentially the same.

For the record, the murderer was one specific psycho that just got out of prison after serving 10 years for stabbing people in a pride parade in 2005. While there are a lot of religious people that are against gays, religion motivated murders of gay people aren't exactly a thing here.

[QUOTE=Adam.GameDev;48361735]I think it does, actually[/QUOTE] [I]BLOODGUILTINESS[/I]

Even though I generally disagree with religion, I have to point out that anyone that murders people in the name of an Abrahamic religion is fucking themselves by their own rules. You have all these little bitchings added together, but you also have a big fucking set of rules that were quite literally set in stone. Ten rules. Ten rules that trump everything else. Ten rules set forth at the beginning that didn't really allow for loopholes. #6. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shall not murder. Don't fucking kill one another, you dumb uplifted chimps. If we're going by people who believe in literalism in the translation and in the omniscience and omnipotence of their one god, then that one god already knew everything going backwards and forwards. The foundation states you don't kill people. The foundation, set by the being that can see forwards and backwards into infinity, says you don't kill people. If you reach for a loophole to enable you to kill people, you're sort of arguing that your god fucked up. You're blaspheming.

[QUOTE=Grimhound;48363525]Even though I generally disagree with religion, I have to point out that anyone that murders people in the name of an Abrahamic religion is fucking themselves by their own rules. You have all these little bitchings added together, but you also have a big fucking set of rules that were quite literally set in stone. Ten rules. Ten rules that trump everything else. Ten rules set forth at the beginning that didn't really allow for loopholes. #6. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shall not murder. Don't fucking kill one another, you dumb uplifted chimps.[/QUOTE] I should mention however, that according to the Torah, any crime which carries the sentence of death (which includes same-sex relationships) could be acted upon by anybody who caught the accused in the commission of said crime. There is also provision for justified killing on the field of battle. Extremists who believe in a by-the-book interpretation are going to use those parts to justify their crimes, no matter that the rest of the world knows better.

[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;48363592]I should mention however, that according to the Torah, any crime which carries the sentence of death (which includes same-sex relationships) could be acted upon by anybody who caught the accused in the commission of said crime. There is also provision for justified killing on the field of battle.[/QUOTE] Pretty sure the guy coming down from the mountain with the words literally given to him by God trumps all the asterisks people have attached over the years. It wasn't "Thou shalt not kill********************************".

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;48361970] While there are a lot of religious people that are against gays, religion motivated murders of gay people aren't exactly a thing here.[/QUOTE] Clearly they are because your post alone contains evidence of it happening twice, the fact it was done by the same guy is irrelevant, two people minimum still died and unless you have some arbitrary number of people that must die before it's "a thing" then it's clearly a thing there. [QUOTE=Grimhound;48363649]Pretty sure the guy coming down from the mountain with the words literally given to him by God trumps all the asterisks people have attached over the years. It wasn't "Thou shalt not kill********************************".[/QUOTE] If God can see forward and backward in time and is omnipresent and all that shit then he'd logically have accounted for these "loopholes" and thus they're clearly not loopholes and are functioning as intended.

[QUOTE=elevate;48361718]The Old Testament clearly condemns homosexuality, but does it instruct its followers to kill homosexuals?[/QUOTE] No, it's one of the Big 10 no-nos of Moses.

[QUOTE=Grimhound;48363649]Pretty sure the guy coming down from the mountain with the words literally given to him by God trumps all the asterisks people have attached over the years. It wasn't "Thou shalt not kill********************************".[/QUOTE] At the same time God gave him those words, the people were bowing down in front of a golden calf. The last thing on the peoples' minds at that time were on fearing and obeying the words of God, and I quote, "Come on, make us some gods who will lead us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us out of Egypt, we don't know what's happened to him." Moses and God were both miffed at this, and then acting on God's instructions, Moses got the Levites to rally to him (whoever is for God, rally to me - and they were the only tribe who answered the call) who then proceeded to butcher about 3,000 men, women, and children as punishment. Hardly the sort of behavior you'd expect from the merciful sort of God, wouldn't you say?

[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;48363723]At the same time God gave him those words, the people were bowing down in front of a golden calf. The last thing on the peoples' minds at that time were on fearing and obeying the words of God, and I quote, "Come on, make us some gods who will lead us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us out of Egypt, we don't know what's happened to him." Moses and God were both miffed at this, and then acting on God's instructions, Moses got the Levites to rally to him (whoever is for God, rally to me - and they were the only tribe who answered the call) who then proceeded to butcher about 3,000 men, women, and children as punishment. Hardly the sort of behavior you'd expect from the merciful sort of God, wouldn't you say?[/QUOTE] The merciful God was the New Testment God.

Religion is just a stupid shitshow that enables people to do really horrible things in the name of their perceived justice.

[QUOTE=WarriorWounds;48363836]Religion is just a stupid shitshow that enables people to do really horrible things in the name of their perceived justice.[/QUOTE] No. Religion can have a purpose. Through belief and faith people can find something worth living for. An ideal worth striving for. A feeling of community. It can be no different than living through a philosophy save for some projecting. It's far too easily abused, though. When you have something based around faith and trust, people will abuse that faith and trust to their own ends. They'll take advantage of people. And it isn't the fault of the people that they want something to believe in. There are just always people waiting to use that against them.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;48363792]The merciful God was the New Testment God.[/QUOTE] New Testament God was the one who killed people for lying about how much money they were giving to the church...

[QUOTE=Grimhound;48363863]No. Religion can have a purpose. Through belief and faith people can find something worth living for. An ideal worth striving for. A feeling of community. It can be no different than living through a philosophy save for some projecting. It's far too easily abused, though. When you have something based around faith and trust, people will abuse that faith and trust to their own ends. They'll take advantage of people. And it isn't the fault of the people that they want something to believe in. There are just always people waiting to use that against them.[/QUOTE] You can find something worth living for without religion as well, whats the point of defending an institution that also enables horrible things?

[QUOTE=draugur;48363680]Clearly they are because your post alone contains evidence of it happening twice, the fact it was done by the same guy is irrelevant, two people minimum still died and unless you have some arbitrary number of people that must die before it's "a thing" then it's clearly a thing there. If God can see forward and backward in time and is omnipresent and all that shit then he'd logically have accounted for these "loopholes" and thus they're clearly not loopholes and are functioning as intended.[/QUOTE] He didn't manage to kill anyone the first time. That's why he only got 10 years and not life. Look, I'm sure other people have been killed for being gay. And I'm sure at least one more time religion played into it. I'm just saying ultra orthodox Jews going postal and murdering gay people (or anyone else, really) is not a common thing. Certainly not common enough to be worth the whole "religion leads to murder" debate where in this specific case mental illness was more likely the main issue. One concession though. Honor killings do still happen here in traditional Arab communities, mostly Muslim. So there have probably been a more than a few religion related murders there.

[QUOTE=WarriorWounds;48363887]You can find something worth living for without religion as well, whats the point of defending an institution that also enables horrible things?[/QUOTE] Armies have done pretty horrible things too. What's the point of defending armies?

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;48364110]Armies have done pretty horrible things too. What's the point of defending armies?[/QUOTE] Armies don't pretend they are infinitely infallible.

[QUOTE=Grimhound;48363525]Even though I generally disagree with religion, I have to point out that anyone that murders people in the name of an Abrahamic religion is fucking themselves by their own rules. You have all these little bitchings added together, but you also have a big fucking set of rules that were quite literally set in stone. Ten rules. Ten rules that trump everything else. Ten rules set forth at the beginning that didn't really allow for loopholes. #6. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shall not murder. Don't fucking kill one another, you dumb uplifted chimps. If we're going by people who believe in literalism in the translation and in the omniscience and omnipotence of their one god, then that one god already knew everything going backwards and forwards. The foundation states you don't kill people. The foundation, set by the being that can see forwards and backwards into infinity, says you don't kill people. If you reach for a loophole to enable you to kill people, you're sort of arguing that your god fucked up. You're blaspheming.[/QUOTE] It's been argued by a few scholars IIRC that the old testament laws only applied to the jewish communities in those time periods. "Thou Shall not Commit Adultery/murder/steal/bear false witness/covet" only applied to jews and their jewish communities meaning that it was only against the lord to kill or steal or whatever from your fellow jews. It's been a few years since I read the paper this was based on so I'm fuzzy on it honestly but that was a pretty clear part of it.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48364145]It's been argued by a few scholars IIRC that the old testament laws only applied to the jewish communities in those time periods. "Thou Shall not Commit Adultery/murder/steal/bear false witness/covet" only applied to jews and their jewish communities meaning that it was only against the lord to kill or steal or whatever from your fellow jews. It's been a few years since I read the paper this was based on so I'm fuzzy on it honestly but that was a pretty clear part of it.[/QUOTE] Just adding on that a modern interpretation on all three sides of the triangle (from Conservative, Reform, and Orthodox judaism) is that while capital punishment itself is justified in theory, but in practice should not generally be used (some argue it should never be used) as it can itself lead to injustices on its own. And also I should mention that they all oppose the administration of the death penalty as such in its modern form in the civil courts.

[QUOTE=draugur;48363680]Clearly they are because your post alone contains evidence of it happening twice, the fact it was done by the same guy is irrelevant, two people minimum still died and unless you have some arbitrary number of people that must die before it's "a thing" then it's clearly a thing there.[/QUOTE]No... really, this guy's the Israeli equivalent of the WBC. Since Israelis have two settings, 1 and 15 on a ten point scale, it's no surprise that the religious nutjobs in Israel are crazy enough to charge into a parade and start stabbing anyone in sight. Plus your argument is flawed, "EVEN THOUGH IT WAS THE SAME GUY THE TWO TIMES IT HAPPENED, this thing we're talking about is absolutely common!" You maybe didn't say it was common, but you inferred it with that little line about what is and is not "a thing" in Israel. Nah, the most ultra-orthodox Jews do usually is bitch about everything and say it's all a sin, I think I can safely say that most Israelis ultimately ignore them. (ScumBunny or another Israeli person can probably confirm this) This made the news because it is precisely uncommon, otherwise you wouldn't hear about it just like you wouldn't hear about all the other shit unrelated to Jews vs Palestinians that happens in Israel.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48364839]No... really, this guy's the Israeli equivalent of the WBC. Since Israelis have two settings, 1 and 15 on a ten point scale, it's no surprise that the religious nutjobs in Israel are crazy enough to charge into a parade and start stabbing anyone in sight. Plus your argument is flawed, "EVEN THOUGH IT WAS THE SAME GUY THE TWO TIMES IT HAPPENED, this thing we're talking about is absolutely common!" You maybe didn't say it was common, but you inferred it with that little line about what is and is not "a thing" in Israel. Nah, the most ultra-orthodox Jews do usually is bitch about everything and say it's all a sin, I think I can safely say that most Israelis ultimately ignore them. (ScumBunny or another Israeli person can probably confirm this) This made the news because it is precisely uncommon, otherwise you wouldn't hear about it just like you wouldn't hear about all the other shit unrelated to Jews vs Palestinians that happens in Israel.[/QUOTE] Sounds about right. I should add the the pride parades in Jerusalem, as opposed to ones in any other major city like Tel Aviv or Haifa, tend to rile up way more people because Jerusalem is home to large communities of very religious Jews, Muslims and Christians. So there usually are demonstrations against the parade, I think even violent ones, but so far to my knowledge there have only been two real attacks on the participants of the parade themselves, both perpetrated by the same nutjob.

So why was a person that has been previously jailed for stabbing people at a pride parade, not put under surveillance when he publicly said that he'd do it again just after getting released?

[QUOTE=Crimor;48370340]So why was a person that has been previously jailed for stabbing people at a pride parade, not put under surveillance when he publicly said that he'd do it again just after getting released?[/QUOTE] Gross incompetence. All authorities involved really dropped the ball on this. Especially the police.