Islam doesn’t belong here, say two-thirds of Germans
145 replies, posted
[QUOTE]For 60 percent of Germans, Islam does not belong in their culture, with only 34 percent of respondents saying that, yes Islam does have a place in Germany, a poll published by Infratest dimap on Thursday shows.
At that time 52 percent of respondents were against the idea that Islam is a part of Germany, while 44 percent supported it.
As hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers have arrived in the country from the Muslim world over the last 12 months, public anxieties about the cultural impact have grown.
Thursday’s poll confirms this, showing that 52 percent of respondents fear that the refugee crisis will lead to Islam having too much cultural sway in the Federal Republic.[/QUOTE]
Source: [url]http://www.thelocal.de/20160512/islam-doesnt-belong-here-say-two-thirds-of-germans[/url]
Here's another one (not quoted): [url]http://www.dw.com/en/almost-two-thirds-of-germans-believe-islam-does-not-belong-in-germany-poll-finds/a-19251169[/url]
That's not exactly surprising, considering the amount of shit that's going on at the moment that can be more or less loosely associated with Islam.
[quote]At that time 52 percent of respondents were against the idea that Islam is a part of Germany[/quote]
Should be 100%. But same goes with any other religion.
Eh, it doesn't belong in EU as a whole.
Or rather, they're welcome to live and work in EU obviously. However, they can't practice their religion freely, or live under the infallible law of God Allah since.. our law isn't based on that.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50308030]Should be 100%. But same goes with any other religion.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps, but Europe is culturally influenced by Christianity, even tho majority of people don't follow it anymore (and thankfully we had a huge reformation of it few centuries ago).
And the other thing is, even if I was a Christian, I can rest assured that my future generations wont find anything closely as exploitable as Islam to commit violent and primitive acts.
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;50308077]The tradgedy of Islam is Christians thinking their Bronze Age religion is somehow better than someone else. If you asked Europeans this question about Judaism (not trying to reference nazism) for a great deal of europe's history you would have gotten a similar answer.[/QUOTE]
The tragedy of relativistic atheism that sucks out any ability to critically analyze historical narrative.
It's surreal to sit and watch self-destructive ignorance feed itself like this. The deeper the cultural schism, the deeper the roots of extremism can burrow. It doesn't take insanity to start a man down the path of radicalization, it only takes enough alienation and doubt for him to start questioning whether there might be a seed of truth in the rhetoric of radical voices.
I am not a religious man, and I think that organized religion, especially organized religion operating in exclusion, can feed itself into an unhealthy force quite quickly. However, I can tell you one thing for certain: if you are trying to fight radicalization within a particular demographic, targeting that demographic with persecution, hatred, and societal exclusion is absolutely the worst way to go about it.
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;50308077]The tradgedy of Islam is Christians thinking their Bronze Age religion is somehow better than someone else. If you asked Europeans this question about Judaism (not trying to reference nazism) for a great deal of europe's history you would have gotten a similar answer.
[B]Islam isn't intrinsically more violent than Christianity[/B], Christians just have the privilege of living in countries that right now are stable.[/QUOTE]
Islam is fundamentally more violent than essentially all major religions because of how their one and only holy book claims that it itself is the direct, un-interpereted literal word(s) of god. You can't fudge it or change it with the times, which leads to more radicalism.
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;50308077]The tradgedy of Islam is Christians thinking their Bronze Age religion is somehow better than someone else. If you asked Europeans this question about Judaism (not trying to reference nazism) for a great deal of europe's history you would have gotten a similar answer.
Islam isn't intrinsically more violent than Christianity, Christians just have the privilege of living in countries that right now are stable.[/QUOTE]
Killing the faithless isn't part of Christian doctrine. (The fact that killing the faithless was acceptable for most of Europe's Christian history is a matter of politics and not theology.)
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;50308077]
Islam isn't intrinsically more violent than Christianity.[/QUOTE]
As far as I know christians don't blow themselves up or perpetrate mass-shootings against civilians just to make their god happy.
Yeah, Christianity had a fucked up age full of witch hunts and all-powerful inquisition, but we managed to move on. Meanwhile hundreds of people die every day due to fanatic suicide bombers that think 72 virgins are awaiting them after they fulfill Allah's command.
And while the Jihad doesn't represent the entire Islamic culture, it's still a big and well-known part of it.
[QUOTE=phygon;50308099]Islam is fundamentally more violent than essentially all major religions because of how their one and only holy book claims that it itself is the direct, un-interpereted literal word(s) of god. You can't fudge it or change it with the times, which leads to more radicalism.[/QUOTE]
For a very long time, Christianity was the same way. The idea that you could personally "interpret" the scripture was ridiculed by the church. It changed with the times. There are several prominent Muslim scholars that criticize the violent aspects of Islam.
Saying that a religion [i]cannot[/i] be changed ever is absurd. Islam has changed enormously over the generations - the rise of ISIS and wahhabism and fundamentalist Islam came after an era of largely secular and progressive post-Ottoman-Empire states in the Middle East. Filled to the brim with Islam with little violence. The modern fundamentalism is a very recent development in Muslim history.
[QUOTE=phygon;50308099]Islam is fundamentally more violent than essentially all major religions because of how their one and only holy book claims that it itself is the direct, un-interpereted literal word(s) of god. You can't fudge it or change it with the times, which leads to more radicalism.[/QUOTE]
On top of that Mohammed was a fucking conqueror, of course it's going to be more violent.
Eh, this poll from what I can tell isnt very specific and open to interpretation. This isnt two thirds of Germans saying that Islam should be banned
[QUOTE=phygon;50308099]Islam is fundamentally more violent than essentially all major religions because of how their one and only holy book claims that it itself is the direct, un-interpereted literal word(s) of god. You can't fudge it or change it with the times, which leads to more radicalism.[/QUOTE]
So are you claiming that Islam has been completely unchanged for about 1400 years?
This kind of thing only plays into ISIS hands, this is exactly what they want, they want Islam to be hated, it fuels their narrative and fills their ranks, giving them more power.
So much for not letting the terrorists control us through fear.
That's an increase of 10% which is less than I expected.
But the english translation also kind of fails, the initial discussion was about Islam being a part of German culture, history and everyday life.
[B]The discussion is not about "belonging here" but about "is it already a part of the country´[/B]
That's a major difference.
[QUOTE=Electrocuter;50308355]
So much for not letting the terrorists control us through fear.[/QUOTE]
I am willing to bet that you don't give a damn about how media networks like Comedy Network are completely unwilling to depict Muhammad because of fear of attacks.
But no, not liking Islam is totally the terrorists winning.
The initial source doesn't link the survey :(
[QUOTE=Killstr3aKs;50308225]As far as I know christians don't blow themselves up or perpetrate mass-shootings against civilians just to make their god happy.
Yeah, Christianity had a fucked up age full of witch hunts and all-powerful inquisition, but we managed to move on. Meanwhile hundreds of people die every day due to fanatic suicide bombers that think 72 virgins are awaiting them after they fulfill Allah's command.
And while the Jihad doesn't represent the entire Islamic culture, it's still a big and well-known part of it.[/QUOTE]
While Christianity had the inquisition, Islam was peaking.
While European Christians had inquisitions to torture and kill apostates and heretics (sound familiar??), the Islamic world was in a literal golden age. Most historians literally call the middle ages "the Golden Age of Islam." The European university system, created by the church, was inspired by Muslim educational institutions - which were both secular and religious in scope. A Muslim minority population was able to operate and rule over a Christian majority without issue while expanding philosophy and mathematics and effectively having an early renaissance. This only ended because the Mongols raided everything.
Islam during the Middle Ages valued the concept of [I]ijtihad[/I], which literally means "independent reasoning," and meant that [I]mujtahids[/I] were religiously obligated to use logical reasoning to [i]personally interpret the Qu'ran and Hadiths[/i] rather than rely on tradition or literal interpretation. Meanwhile, Christianity was executing apostates en masse and engaging in religious warfare.
Progress isn't "oh we moved on they should too." It's not linear - Islam was undeniably a more progressive and peaceful religion than Christianity for a very long time. They allowed Christians and Jews and other religions to coexist peacefully [i]and codified it in Sharia law[/i]. The fact that it isn't now doesn't mean that it's somehow inherently more violent - it means that fundamentalism is having a resurgence due to literally thousands of different social, economic, and theological reasons.
[img]http://www1.wdr.de/fernsehen/ihre-meinung/islam-120~_v-ARDFotogalerie.jpg[/img]
This could easily be misstranslated to "does Islam belong to Germany" but [B]"is Islam a part of Germany" is a much better translation.[/B]
Just an FYI this is from the Bertelsman AG which has faked studies before. Not saying that this one is but just take it with a grain (a bucket) of salt.
[QUOTE=The Saiko;50308470]Just an FYI this is from the Bertelsman AG which has faked studies before. Not saying that this one is but just take it with a grain (a bucket) of salt.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't help that Bertelsmann is basically owned by hardcore libertarians money elite top 1%ers and looky looky FDP and AfD THE HARDCORE LIBERTARIAN parties are agreeing with it the most.
[editline]12th May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50308500]People discussing this as if it was about Islamophobia
Whereas one thirds of Germans said "Islam is a part of Germany"[/QUOTE]
I think it's because the translation really is not good and somewhat tendentious
[QUOTE=Killuah;50308440]This could easily be misstranslated to "does Islam belong to Germany" but "is Islam a part of Germany" is a much better translation.[/QUOTE]
No, either "The islam is a part of Germany" or "The islam belongs to Germany". It's a statement, not a question.
[QUOTE=The Saiko;50308470]Just an FYI this is from the Bertelsman AG which has faked studies before. Not saying that this one is but just take it with a grain (a bucket) of salt.[/QUOTE]
The study wasn't done by the Bertelsmann AG, they are only the clients.
Personally I don't want conservative Islamic (or Judaistic, or Christian, the list goes) to influence Danish culture. Homophobia and sexism are aspects that while not exclusive to Islam or religion in general still permeate that culture, and I'd really rather have those views die off. Even comparatively tame aspects like circumcision also need to go. The most recent statistics (that I can find anyway, they're from 2007) show that 27% of second generation immigrant muslims want to prohibit homosexuality, and 50% of first- and second generation immigrants supported a ban on books and movies that attack religion. Honestly, those are people that I don't want to influence my country.
That's not to say that a moderate form of Islam isn't acceptable, it definitely is, and I'm not gonna say we should ban people from the country for holding those views, but I do wish they would leave them at the doorstep.
[QUOTE=Firewarrior;50308535]No, either "The islam is a part of Germany" or "The islam belongs to Germany". It's a statement, not a question.
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough but then "Islam is a part of Germany" is still a much better translation
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;50308077]The tradgedy of Islam is Christians thinking their Bronze Age religion is somehow better than someone else. If you asked Europeans this question about Judaism (not trying to reference nazism) for a great deal of europe's history you would have gotten a similar answer.
Islam isn't intrinsically more violent than Christianity, Christians just have the privilege of living in countries that right now are stable.[/QUOTE]
Christianity was founded by an ante-litteram hippie who may or may not have existed. Islam was found by a child-raping jew-genociding warmongerer who definitely did exist and who just wrote a holy book for his own personal gains, making up laws as he pleased for his own benefit. Oh, and he imposed his religion by the use of the sword, while Christians managed to do that simply through their message.
In the end, as an atheist, I don't care what religion you prefer, but pretending that Islam and Christianity are the same is historical revisionism at worst simple ignorance at best.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;50308542]Personally I don't want conservative Islamic (or Judaistic, or Christian, the list goes) to influence Danish culture. Homophobia and sexism are aspects that while not exclusive to Islam or religion in general still permeate that culture, and I'd really rather have those views die off. Even comparatively tame aspects like circumcision also need to go. The most recent statistics (that I can find anyway, they're from 2007) show that 27% of second generation immigrant muslims want to prohibit homosexuality, and 50% of first- and second generation immigrants supported a ban on books and movies that attack religion. Honestly, those are people that I don't want to influence my country.
[/QUOTE]
Noone wants that, that's why integration is so damn important.
We have experience with what happens with no integration from the 60s and 70s
[editline]12th May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;50308583]Christianity was founded by an ante-litteram hippie who may or may not have existed. Islam was found by a child-raping jew-genociding warmongerer who definitely did exist and who just wrote a holy book for his own personal gains, making up laws as he pleased for his own benefit. Oh, and he imposed his religion by the use of the sword, while Christians managed to do that simply through their message.
In the end, as an atheist, I don't care what religion you prefer, but pretending that Islam and Christianity are the same is historical revisionism at worst simple ignorance at best.[/QUOTE]
He's not saying they are the same why are you even bringing that up?
Sure it's easy to argue against such a blunt statement but his post is basically the opposite, even more so together with
[quote]While Christianity had the inquisition, Islam was peaking.
While European Christians had inquisitions to torture and kill apostates and heretics (sound familiar??), the Islamic world was in a literal golden age. Most historians literally call the middle ages "the Golden Age of Islam." The European university system, created by the church, was inspired by Muslim educational institutions - which were both secular and religious in scope. A Muslim minority population was able to operate and rule over a Christian majority without issue while expanding philosophy and mathematics and effectively having an early renaissance. This only ended because the Mongols raided everything.
Islam during the Middle Ages valued the concept of ijtihad, which literally means "independent reasoning," and meant that mujtahids were religiously obligated to use logical reasoning to personally interpret the Qu'ran and Hadiths rather than rely on tradition or literal interpretation. Meanwhile, Christianity was executing apostates en masse and engaging in religious warfare.
Progress isn't "oh we moved on they should too." It's not linear - Islam was undeniably a more progressive and peaceful religion than Christianity for a very long time. They allowed Christians and Jews and other religions to coexist peacefully and codified it in Sharia law. The fact that it isn't now doesn't mean that it's somehow inherently more violent - it means that fundamentalism is having a resurgence due to literally thousands of different social, economic, and theological reasons.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Killstr3aKs;50308225]As far as I know christians don't blow themselves up or perpetrate mass-shootings against civilians just to make their god happy.
Yeah, Christianity had a fucked up age full of witch hunts and all-powerful inquisition, but we managed to move on. Meanwhile hundreds of people die every day due to fanatic suicide bombers that think 72 virgins are awaiting them after they fulfill Allah's command.
And while the Jihad doesn't represent the entire Islamic culture, it's still a big and well-known part of it.[/QUOTE]
You're confirming exactly what he's saying, you realize?
It has little to do with the religion, the Middle East didn't develop quite as fast in the last few centuries, and in the last few decades they fell to absolute shit for various reasons. One of the biggest reasons being America and Russia's meddling during the cold war.
If they were reversed, if Islam was the major religion in Europe and Christianity in the Middle East, the current situation likely wouldn't change much.
[QUOTE=Killuah;50308580]Fair enough but then "Islam is a part of Germany" is still a much better translation[/QUOTE]
The "thelocal" news sites don't seem to be that great, from what I've seen
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