NRA Disagrees With Donald Trump with his suggestion that the Orlando Clubgoers shoud have been armed - Polidicks

[QUOTE]Contradicting statements by presumptive Republican nominee Donald Trump, the NRA’s top lobbyist said in an interview Sunday on “This Week” that patrons of the Pulse nightclub in Orlando should not have been armed. “No one thinks that people should go into a nightclub drinking and carrying firearms,” said Chris Cox, executive director of the NRA’s Institute for Legislative Action. “That defies common sense. It also defies the law.”[/QUOTE] [URL="http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/nra-top-lobbyist-people-orlando-night-club-armed/story?id=39963267"]http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/nra-top-lobbyist-people-orlando-night-club-armed/story?id=39963267[/URL] ...

The video sounds more like apologetics for Trump's statement than the thread title made it seem. Also: [quote]“If some of those wonderful people had guns strapped right here, right to their waste or right to their ankle, [...].[/quote] A++ editing fellas.

In a room filled with people, and one enemy combatant, having a huge firefight is more likely to get other people shot, not even speaking of the alcohol.

such backpedal. Seriously, these are the same people who bemoan every time a school shooting happens "if only the teachers had guns!" [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/02/nra-school-safety-report_n_2999968.html[/url] and they also bemoan every time a college shooting happens "If only the students had guns too!" [url]http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/02/26/new-nra-talking-point-opponents-of-guns-on-camp/202676[/url] then they also bemoan that bars shouldn't be gun-free zones "What if a fight happened!" [url]http://thinkprogress.org/security/2010/05/12/96602/nra-tn-guns-bar/[/url] [url]http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/24/guns-in-bars-what-could-go-wrong.html[/url] now they draw the line that a nightclub (where alcohol and lots of people are by the way) should be a gun free zone? FUCK YOU NRA you're ruining america just as much as trump. Suddenly when faced with an overwhelming tragedy and an idiot worse than your organization do you suddenly change sides

[QUOTE=Sableye;50551012]such backpedal. Seriously, these are the same people who bemoan every time a school shooting happens "if only the teachers had guns!" [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/02/nra-school-safety-report_n_2999968.html[/url] and they also bemoan every time a college shooting happens "If only the students had guns too!" [url]http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/02/26/new-nra-talking-point-opponents-of-guns-on-camp/202676[/url] then they also bemoan that bars shouldn't be gun-free zones "What if a fight happened!" [url]http://thinkprogress.org/security/2010/05/12/96602/nra-tn-guns-bar/[/url] now they draw the line that a nightclub (where alcohol and lots of people are by the way) should be a gun free zone? FUCK YOU NRA you're ruining america just as much as trump. Suddenly when faced with an overwhelming tragedy and an idiot worse than your organization do you suddenly change sides[/QUOTE] Wait Bars and Nightclubs are almost the same thing?

[QUOTE=OmniConsUme;50551020]Wait Bars and Nightclubs are almost the same thing?[/QUOTE] Quite closely related, typically.

[QUOTE=Sableye;50551012]such backpedal. Seriously, these are the same people who bemoan every time a school shooting happens "if only the teachers had guns!" [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/02/nra-school-safety-report_n_2999968.html[/url] and they also bemoan every time a college shooting happens "If only the students had guns too!" [url]http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/02/26/new-nra-talking-point-opponents-of-guns-on-camp/202676[/url] then they also bemoan that bars shouldn't be gun-free zones "What if a fight happened!" [url]http://thinkprogress.org/security/2010/05/12/96602/nra-tn-guns-bar/[/url] [url]http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/24/guns-in-bars-what-could-go-wrong.html[/url] now they draw the line that a nightclub (where alcohol and lots of people are by the way) should be a gun free zone? FUCK YOU NRA you're ruining america just as much as trump. Suddenly when faced with an overwhelming tragedy and an idiot worse than your organization do you suddenly change sides[/QUOTE] It was never a side change, it's been the stance of the NRA for years. They've stressed alcohol and guns don't mix for as long as I can remember, but they never pushed for laws to put an outright ban on it. In many states it is legal to carry in bars and clubs, but illegal be intoxicated while doing so. Here in Minnesota of you reach a .04 it's a misdemeanour, with a .08 bring a felony. Long story short it wraps into their stance on gun safety, to which when it comes to handling a firearm makes perfect sense.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50551070]It was never a side change, it's been the stance of the NRA for years. They've stressed alcohol and guns don't mix for as long as I can remember, but they never pushed for laws to put an outright ban on it. In many states it is legal to carry in bars and clubs, but illegal be intoxicated while doing so. Here in Minnesota of you reach a .04 it's a misdemeanour, with a .08 bring a felony. Long story short it wraps into their stance on gun safety, to which when it comes to handling a firearm makes perfect sense.[/QUOTE] dude, they have pressured for legislation to bring guns into bars to protect people inside, yet now they say that people shouldn't bring guns into nightclubs, thats a 180 no matter how you spin it. Its illegal all around to be intoxicated and possess a firearm, always has been always will be. they can advocate gun safety all they want, but there are places where guns should not be, no matter how safe they're carried, and the NRA has argued against having those limitations

[QUOTE=Sableye;50551091]dude, they have pressured for legislation to bring guns into bars to protect people inside, yet now they say that people shouldn't bring guns into nightclubs, thats a 180 no matter how you spin it. Its illegal all around to be intoxicated and possess a firearm, always has been always will be.[/QUOTE] That's not what was said though, what was said was "no one thinks people should go into nightclubs [B]drinking[/B] and carrying firearms". The article paints it as an outright no guns in bars statement, when it's not, and uses it as the catalyst to paint a picture that the NRA and Trump don't agree. No one should go to a bar drinking and carrying a gun, that's something damn near every responsible gun owner would agree with.

I'm sensing a massive contradiction between allowing people to carry guns into bars yet preventing them from having them there while intoxicated. Guns shouldn't be in a bar at all.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50551123]I'm sensing a massive contradiction between allowing people to carry guns into bars yet preventing them from having them there while intoxicated. Guns shouldn't be in a bar at all.[/QUOTE] It's the same contradiction in having a parking lot at the bar knowing that those who drink there could drive home. Its not like the bar forces you to drink while you're there.

[QUOTE=OmniConsUme;50551020]Wait Bars and Nightclubs are almost the same thing?[/QUOTE] Nightclubs have bars but not every bar is a nightclub

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50551132]It's the same contradiction in having a parking lot at the bar knowing that those who drink there could drive home. Its not like the bar forces you to drink while you're there.[/QUOTE] You're still inside a place where people get drunk. Guns should be either left outside or not be brought in at all. That's only asking for trouble.

It doesn't take much more than a single concealed gun owner in a convenient place to stop an attack like this. Even as unarmed you could technically stop him, given the right circumstances, but you know.. the risks are great, and you'd have to be a pretty cold dude to think straight and quickly in a situation like that.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50551228]You're still inside a place where people get drunk. Guns should be either left outside or not be brought in at all. That's only asking for trouble.[/QUOTE] Your own statement is exactly why someone would want to bring a gun, because you're in a place where people get drunk. Whenever I'm sober cab I always carry, because with my disabilities I have little to no chance in a fist fight with a 230lbs body builder who decided to start swinging after my attempts to calm the situation fail. But that's only when I'm sober cab, if I'm going in with the intention to drink it stays home or in the lock box in my car.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50551119]That's not what was said though, what was said was "no one thinks people should go into nightclubs [B]drinking[/B] and carrying firearms". The article paints it as an outright no guns in bars statement, when it's not, and uses it as the catalyst to paint a picture that the NRA and Trump don't agree. [B]No one should go to a bar drinking and carrying a gun[/B], that's something damn near every responsible gun owner would agree with.[/QUOTE] They've been advocating for mixing guns and alcohol for years, and now they're saying guns shouldn't mix with alcohol. Yes they aren't saying you can drink while carrying, but they are saying you should be able to go into a bar while carrying. Just because they say people shouldn't drink with guns, doesn't mean they're not responsible for putting guns in that environment in the first place. now though, when a blithering moron makes their case, they backpedal to say that guns shouldn't be in that environment to begin with. i'm not saying you're irresponsible, i'm saying the NRA are fucking asshats who have persued an agenda for years, and now that its a national tragedy, their "guns anywhere" policy starts to crumble. even in colonial times they checked the muskets at the door (which is allegedly the cause of the boston riots)

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50551119]That's not what was said though, what was said was "no one thinks people should go into nightclubs [B]drinking[/B] and carrying firearms". The article paints it as an outright no guns in bars statement, when it's not, and uses it as the catalyst to paint a picture that the NRA and Trump don't agree. No one should go to a bar drinking and carrying a gun, that's something damn near every responsible gun owner would agree with.[/QUOTE] This is a perfect statement and I don't see why anyone would disagree with it. It shouldn't be illegal to carry in a bar. It SHOULD be illegal to carry while under the influence. Even without the law, every single gun owner I've met has a clearly defined line between drinking and carrying and they don't dare mix the two.

Im imagining some plastered fucker standing his ground when you get the typical bar quarrel or when the bouncer tries to escort someone out.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50551297]Your own statement is exactly why someone would want to bring a gun, because you're in a place where people get drunk. Whenever I'm sober cab I always carry, because with my disabilities I have little to no chance in a fist fight with a 230lbs body builder who decided to start swinging after my attempts to calm the situation fail. But that's only when I'm sober cab, if I'm going in with the intention to drink it stays home or in the lock box in my car.[/QUOTE] The problem with having guns in a place full of drunk people is that they aren't able to make rational decisions while under the influence. A bar is extremely likely to be full of people who (being under the influence) are likely to make bad decisions. When somebody has a gun on their person and they don't have good hand-eye coordination and the ability to make quick or rational decisions then they shouldn't be holding a gun. If a fight breaks out in a bar, then having guns is only going to make matters worse. [editline]19th June 2016[/editline] I don't see what the big issue with leaving it in a locker or in your car is.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50551123]I'm sensing a massive contradiction between allowing people to carry guns into bars yet preventing them from having them there while intoxicated. Guns shouldn't be in a bar at all.[/QUOTE] Patrons should not have weapons at a bar. However, you could argue that security, staff, or the bartender should have weapons for situations like this. A club isn't the optimal place to be aiming a gun at a target but the owners have a right to defend their business just like a convenience store.

[QUOTE=Sableye;50551012]such backpedal. Seriously, these are the same people who bemoan every time a school shooting happens "if only the teachers had guns!" [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/02/nra-school-safety-report_n_2999968.html[/url] and they also bemoan every time a college shooting happens "If only the students had guns too!" [url]http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/02/26/new-nra-talking-point-opponents-of-guns-on-camp/202676[/url] then they also bemoan that bars shouldn't be gun-free zones "What if a fight happened!" [url]http://thinkprogress.org/security/2010/05/12/96602/nra-tn-guns-bar/[/url] [url]http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/24/guns-in-bars-what-could-go-wrong.html[/url] now they draw the line that a nightclub (where alcohol and lots of people are by the way) should be a gun free zone? FUCK YOU NRA you're ruining america just as much as trump. Suddenly when faced with an overwhelming tragedy and an idiot worse than your organization do you suddenly change sides[/QUOTE] Quality sources. The NRA has never wanted people to mix alcohol and guns- drunk people with guns is dumb. DDs, or whatever that are carrying are a nonissue. We've been carrying in bars while sober legally in Virginia since 2011. Funnily enough, the gun violence rate in bars hardly went up that year- in actuality, it went down by a fair chunk. It going down probably isn't related to more patrons being armed, but it demonstrates that they didn't go up like quite a few people feared- with our (now demonstrably) without merit. [url]http://www.richmond.com/archive/article_07eae8c7-9e74-56d6-8928-a9fe2add8ebf.html[/url] As for the big bad boogie man image of the NRA that most leftists have going on, well, it's honestly comical. It's charming that they get upset that someone is standing in the way of them taking away the rights of the people- something they claim they're there to do. I'm very glad that the NRA and smaller 2nd amendment rights groups have been making big wins in their home states- the Virginia Citizens Defense League has been making very good progress, lately. Can't wait to join. And, I'm going to join the NRA soon, too- Headquartered right here in the old dominion state. If you ever want to actually fight for the rights of your fellow citizens, there's always room for you at the table and a lane at the range. :)

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50551369]The problem with having guns in a place full of drunk people is that they aren't able to make rational decisions while under the influence. A bar is extremely likely to be full of people who (being under the influence) are likely to make bad decisions. When somebody has a gun on their person and they don't have good hand-eye coordination and the ability to make quick or rational decisions then they shouldn't be holding a gun. If a fight breaks out in a bar, then having guns is only going to make matters worse. [editline]19th June 2016[/editline] I don't see what the big issue with leaving it in a locker or in your car is.[/QUOTE] The issue for me is If I'm sober and I'm in a bar and two people are yelling at each other because they're drunk decide to go after me when I try to diffuse the situation. I've gotten my ass kicked plenty of times, and that's when I was still physically able to fight back in full. I can't do that anymore, and all it takes is a good swing to the noggin and I'm done for. Of course the same holds true If i am drinking, but as a responsible adult I'm not going to carry when I drink for the reasons that you mention. [editline]19th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Sableye;50551339]They've been advocating for mixing guns and alcohol for years, and now they're saying guns shouldn't mix with alcohol. Yes they aren't saying you can drink while carrying, but they are saying you should be able to go into a bar while carrying. Just because they say people shouldn't drink with guns, doesn't mean they're not responsible for putting guns in that environment in the first place. now though, when a blithering moron makes their case, they backpedal to say that guns shouldn't be in that environment to begin with. i'm not saying you're irresponsible, i'm saying the NRA are fucking asshats who have persued an agenda for years, and now that its a national tragedy, their "guns anywhere" policy starts to crumble. even in colonial times they checked the muskets at the door (which is allegedly the cause of the boston riots)[/QUOTE] If you can find official literature from the last 20 years that says "go drink and shoot guns" coming from the NRA I'll bite my tongue. For the 20 years that I've been with and worked with the NRA I have never seen them advocate alcohol use with firearms. And as I stated before they never said no guns in bars, at any point. They didn't say "No one should go to a bar carrying a gun", they said "No one should go to a bar DRINKING and carrying a gun" That one word makes all of the difference in the meaning of the statement, and this article completely misconstrues it's meaning as if the word drinking was never in the sentence.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50551601]The issue for me is If I'm sober and I'm in a bar and two people are yelling at each other because they're drunk decide to go after me when I try to diffuse the situation. I've gotten my ass kicked plenty of times, and that's when I was still physically able to fight back in full. I can't do that anymore, and all it takes is a good swing to the noggin and I'm done for. Of course the same holds true If i am drinking, but as a responsible adult I'm not going to carry when I drink for the reasons that you mention.[/QUOTE] It doesn't follow how having a gun would improve the situation.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50551612]It doesn't follow how having a gun would improve the situation.[/QUOTE] You get involved in a fight between two drunk strangers and then shoot them if they turn on you is what it sounds like.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50551297]Your own statement is exactly why someone would want to bring a gun, because you're in a place where people get drunk. Whenever I'm sober cab I always carry, because with my disabilities I have little to no chance in a fist fight with a 230lbs body builder who decided to start swinging after my attempts to calm the situation fail. But that's only when I'm sober cab, if I'm going in with the intention to drink it stays home or in the lock box in my car.[/QUOTE] What kind of example is this for when you'd need a gun [editline]19th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50551601] If you can find official literature from the last 20 years that says "go drink and shoot guns" coming from the NRA I'll bite my tongue. For the 20 years that I've been with and worked with the NRA I have never seen them advocate alcohol use with firearms. And as I stated before they never said no guns in bars, at any point. They didn't say "No one should go to a bar carrying a gun", they said "No one should go to a bar DRINKING and carrying a gun" That one word makes all of the difference in the meaning of the statement, and this article completely misconstrues it's meaning as if the word drinking was never in the sentence.[/QUOTE] Not official but still very close to the NRA [url]https://www.nraila.org/articles/20140811/texas-alcoholic-beverage-commission-proposes-expansive-restrictions-affecting-friends-of-nra-events-shooting-clubs-and-gun-shows[/url] [editline]19th June 2016[/editline] [url]http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/texas-proposes-alcohol-sales-some-gun-shows[/url]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50551612]It doesn't follow how having a gun would improve the situation.[/QUOTE] Self defense in a situation where without the weapon he'd be helpless? Seems pretty straight forward to me It wouldn't improve the situation, yeah, it'd help his survival chances is what I think he's getting at

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50551369]The problem with having guns in a place full of drunk people is that they aren't able to make rational decisions while under the influence.[/QUOTE] Your entire argument seems to rest on being at a bar being equivalent to being intoxicated. A clearly false assumption.

[QUOTE=NikoChekhov;50551813]Self defense in a situation where without the weapon he'd be helpless? Seems pretty straight forward to me It wouldn't improve the situation, yeah, it'd help his survival chances is what I think he's getting at[/QUOTE] Hit the nail on the head there.

[QUOTE=sgman91;50551822]Your entire argument seems to rest on being at a bar being equivalent to being intoxicated. A clearly false assumption.[/QUOTE] If people aren't allowed to hold guns while drunk, then what's the cutoff point? If you're in a bar should there be a law mandating that if you buy a drink then you legally have to put your gun in a locker or take it outside?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50551861]If people aren't allowed to hold guns while drunk, then what's the cutoff point? If you're in a bar should there be a law mandating that if you buy a drink then you legally have to put your gun in a locker or take it outside?[/QUOTE] The obvious answer is that people wouldn't bring their gun if they intended to drink; the same way they don't bring their car if they intend to drink.