• EU referendum: Cameron sets 23rd June date for UK vote
    53 replies, posted
[QUOTE]Britain will vote on whether to remain in the EU on Thursday 23 June, Prime Minister David Cameron has said. The prime minister made his historic announcement in Downing Street after briefing the cabinet. He said he would be campaigning to remain in a reformed EU - and described the vote as one of the biggest decisions "in our lifetimes". Ministers immediately divided up into the leave and remain camps as the campaigns got under way in earnest. ... In his statement, Mr Cameron warned that leaving the European Union would be a "leap in the dark" as he urged voters to back his reform deal. "Those who want to leave Europe cannot tell you if British businesses would be able to access Europe's free trade single market, or if working people's jobs are safe, or how much prices would rise. All they're offering is a risk at a time of uncertainty - a leap in the dark." In a direct appeal to voters, he said: "The choice is in your hands - but my recommendation is clear. I believe that Britain will be safer, stronger and better off by remaining in a reformed European Union." [/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35621079"]Source[/URL] Cameron's speech: [video=youtube;5VzaGvLXMy8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VzaGvLXMy8[/video]
Won't be able to vote, my 18th birthday is in August. I'm sort of glad though because although I'd vote to remain, I wouldn't feel good about it.
Reform seems better than leaving the European experiment.
[url]http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/michael-gove-why-im-backing-leave/[/url] Gove backing Brexit. I basically agree with everything he says here, but I still wouldn't vote to leave.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49778130][url]http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/michael-gove-why-im-backing-leave/[/url] Gove backing Brexit. I basically agree with everything he says here, but I still wouldn't vote to leave.[/QUOTE] He would be right if Britain was the perfect country like he describes it, but it isn't.
Just an FYI, there's a lot of talk around Westminster that the reason he's holding it in June and not September is because he's afraid that another summer migrant crisis could trigger a move toward leaving the EU.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49778130][url]http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/michael-gove-why-im-backing-leave/[/url] Gove backing Brexit. I basically agree with everything he says here, but I still wouldn't vote to leave.[/QUOTE] Gove has had a Boner for leaving the EU for decades so it's not really news. He seems a bit deluded to. [QUOTE]with the best armed forces of any nation[/QUOTE] Maybe in the past but not now..
[QUOTE=Morgen;49778150]Gove has had a Boner for leaving the EU for decades so it's not really news. He seems a bit deluded to. Maybe in the past but not now..[/QUOTE] yeah, I found that bit strange. We have the best in the EU, and one of the best in the world, but not even close to the US for example. It is news, because people were wondering whether his personal loyalty to Cameron would trump his Euroscepticism. I think Cameron in the end let him go, because he is equal in unpopularity to Jeremy Corbyn with the public, and among those he is popular with (Conservative party members in particular) he is likely to only be persuading those who are already voting to leave (I'm very much an exception being a Gove fan and not wanting to leave, probably linked to me being younger).
The EU clearly needs to be reformed. That being said, exiting isn't the best option - they're far stronger together than apart.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49778084]Won't be able to vote, my 18th birthday is in August. I'm sort of glad though because although I'd vote to remain, I wouldn't feel good about it.[/QUOTE] Wait, wtf, you have to be 18 to vote in this? That is so stupid. It should be 16. It's literally deciding the future of Britain, why close out two years who are probably informed enough to vote on this issue. P.S. vote yes
[QUOTE=ElectronicG19;49778214]Wait, wtf, you have to be 18 to vote in this? That is so stupid. It should be 16. It's literally deciding the future of Britain, why close out two years who are probably informed enough to vote on this issue. P.S. vote yes[/QUOTE] Fuck that noise, at least someone who's 18 has more of a vested interest in the future than a 16 year old who's still at school and would likely just follow what their parents spout.
[QUOTE=markg06;49778229]Fuck that noise, at least someone who's 18 has more of a vested interest in the future than a 16 year old who's still at school and would likely just follow what their parents spout.[/QUOTE] Yeah, keep it at 18. I think that 18, whilst arbitrary, serves as an important milestone in a way which 16 doesn't and as such is the age at which you can usually vote.
16 year olds have 2 years more vested interest, they just lack 2 years experience and maturity (compared to themselves at 18, obviously there are massive personal differences). That said, I'd say they deserve to be able to vote. This will be the first time I get to vote though, so that's cool.
I'll be pissed if we end up voting to leave the EU as this fucks with my future job prospects as an engineer not only in the EU, but in the UK. Sadly, from my anecdotal perspective it seems to be heading that way. The EU seems to have always been the perpetual scapegoat for the past several decades and as a result your average voter seems to blame immigrants/EU for everything and I think because of that, and how people tend to get entrenched in their own political opinions (myself not withstanding) it's probably going to go the same way as the EU parliament elections we had in 2014 (the one where most people voted for UKIP to represent us in the EU :scream:). I know I'll be voting and I do hope thing turn out reasonably well, I also hope if we leave it doesn't cause a massive amount of damage to this country.
[QUOTE=markg06;49778229]Fuck that noise, at least someone who's 18 has more of a vested interest in the future than a 16 year old who's still at school and would likely just follow what their parents spout.[/QUOTE] i think you're underestimating most of the 16-year-old population here, not all of them are idiot dick heads who can't think for themselves. If I was 16 I'd want to vote in this, it's important for the future. EDIT: Scotland did it right with their in/out in 2014.
[QUOTE=Kickasskyle;49778261]I'll be pissed if we end up voting to leave the EU as this fucks with my future job prospects as an engineer not only in the EU, but in the UK. Sadly, from my anecdotal perspective it seems to be heading that way. The EU seems to have always been the perpetual scapegoat for the past several decades and as a result your average voter seems to blame immigrants/EU for everything and I think because of that, and how people tend to get entrenched in their own political opinions (myself not withstanding) it's probably going to go the same way as the EU parliament elections we had in 2014 (the one where most people voted for UKIP to represent us in the EU :scream:). I know I'll be voting and I do hope thing turn out reasonably well, I also hope if we leave it doesn't cause a massive amount of damage to this country.[/QUOTE] Do you accept there are problems with it though? My issues aren't to do with scapegoating, and I (being from a family of the 'metropolitan London elite') don't particularly care about immigration. They more come from the fact that the EU is undemocratic and undermines national sovereignty. It costs far more money than it reasonably should (and yes, I agree that we net benefit from being members - doesn't mean it isn't far more expensive than it should be). Whilst being outside of the two most disastrous projects, we can still see their results: Schengen has brought chaos and the Euro has brought (or at least heavily contributed to) economic misery. And, most importantly to me, a fair number of people within the EU bureaucracy are European federalists, who I think are absolute lunatics, meaning that I think the removal of the 'ever closer union' clause is actually quite important. Yet nothing seems likely to change in spite of the rage towards how the EU operates, not just from traditionally Eurosceptic countries like Britain or the Netherlands, but from Visegrad and even France. They seem to be completely immune to public opinion, which worries me greatly.
[QUOTE=Kickasskyle;49778261]I'll be pissed if we end up voting to leave the EU as this fucks with my future job prospects as an engineer not only in the EU, but in the UK. Sadly, from my anecdotal perspective it seems to be heading that way. The EU seems to have always been the perpetual scapegoat for the past several decades and as a result your average voter seems to blame immigrants/EU for everything and I think because of that, and how people tend to get entrenched in their own political opinions (myself not withstanding) it's probably going to go the same way as the EU parliament elections we had in 2014 (the one where most people voted for UKIP to represent us in the EU :scream:). I know I'll be voting and I do hope thing turn out reasonably well, I also hope if we leave it doesn't cause a massive amount of damage to this country.[/QUOTE] Why would it fuck up your future job prospect? You can have new treaties made that allow free movement of services.
[QUOTE=Kaelnukem;49778277]Why would it fuck up your future job prospect? You can have new treaties made that allow free movement of services.[/QUOTE] A lot of the aerospace companies I've contracted with rely on the EU business and obviously when the various trade agreements come up if we go it won't all disappear. However I know from experience that there are a lot of parts manufacturing contracts (mostly civil since military stuff only gets done by domestic facilities) that are just looking for reasons to disappear over to cheaper roads. However,I have no doubt stuff is being done behind the scenes to mitigate any impact that leaving the EU would have, even so I think there's going to be a danger of some companies getting shafted. Also, I was mainly talking about the affect on domestic companies eg. Manufacturing, Automotive, Aerospace etc. Not so much my ability to go abroad somewhere. Thinking about it now it'll probably affect certain job opportunities in the EU, but on the whole it probably wont make a massive difference to me personally. However I can image it might have a bigger impact on others depending on their area. [QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49778276]Do you accept there are problems with it though? [/QUOTE] Yeah the EU has it's issues of-course, but I think it's better than the alternative.
does an exit still mean that cameron will push to be a part of the EEA?
[QUOTE=ElectronicG19;49778214]Wait, wtf, you have to be 18 to vote in this? That is so stupid. It should be 16. It's literally deciding the future of Britain, why close out two years who are probably informed enough to vote on this issue. P.S. vote yes[/QUOTE] Yes it's deciding the future of Britain, which is exactly why we shouldn't let a load of barely educated 16 year olds vote on it, it's bad enough that we're letting the barely educated British public vote on it at all without letting a bunch of kids get involved. [editline]20th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Bobie;49778424]does an exit still mean that cameron will push to be a part of the EEA?[/QUOTE] It means he'll likely step down and get replaced by either Osborne or Johnson.
[media]https://twitter.com/owenjbennett/status/700793595196997634[/media] [media]https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/700801073481719808[/media] [media]https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/700794473673052160[/media]
[QUOTE=ElectronicG19;49778214]Wait, wtf, you have to be 18 to vote in this? That is so stupid. It should be 16. It's literally deciding the future of Britain, why close out two years who are probably informed enough to vote on this issue. P.S. vote yes[/QUOTE] It's always been 18, Scotland was an exception, why are you surprised Also there is no Yes, the options are Remain/Leave
[QUOTE=ElectronicG19;49778214]P.S. vote yes[/QUOTE] convincing argument
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;49778460] [editline]20th February 2016[/editline] It means he'll likely step down and get replaced by either Osborne or Johnson.[/QUOTE] what a mess. this whole referendum is going to be a gigantic shitstorm and waste of time, i won't be voting due to both outcomes being equally mediocre.
[QUOTE=Bobie;49778655]what a mess. this whole referendum is going to be a gigantic shitstorm and waste of time, i won't be voting due to both outcomes being equally mediocre.[/QUOTE] I'm probably going to vote to stay just because the EU is pretty much the only thing standing in the way of total tory dictatorship and the massive ass fucking the public will get from them once the EUs checks and balances are gone. Not saying the EU is perfect, but the alternative is certainly a hell of a lot worse.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;49778682] Not saying the EU is perfect, but the alternative is certainly a hell of a lot worse.[/QUOTE] The fact its not perfect but can be worked with is the exact reason we should stay in tbh. A reformed EU with the UK in is a lot better than being on the outside looking in. Sure we might end up with similar treaties to replace the Schengen agreement etc but there is no guarantee they will remain in place with every members state.
Lol there are still two organisations fighting to be recognised as the official Leave campaign
[QUOTE=smurfy;49779070]Lol there are still two organisations fighting to be recognised as the official Leave campaign[/QUOTE] Three. Vote Leave, Leave.EU and GrassrootsOut
Does the leave campaign actually have a plan in place for if we do leave the EU or is it just guessing that things will get better if we close the borders and burn all the baguettes.
The whole campaign is a near perfect smoke screen for Cameron, considering how much attention its taken away from Tory cuts, particularly with the NHS. We're going to pay £100 billion for a new Trident update that we can't ever use of solely our own will, even on doomsday without American permission. We're subsiding the American nuclear arsenal, and the same people who have no objection to this are outraged that we spend £12 billion a year on EU membership. They're outraged that the EU is supposedly a threat to our sovereignty, based on some made up crap about not being able to dictate the flow of immigration and having all our laws be written by brussels, yet they've got nothing to say when you point out that we're basically American vassals. When America barks, we yip at its feet. It doesn't matter how much of the membership fees are repaid by trade benefits or political voice, or that we've already put a refugee hard cap at 20,000 and opted out of the refugee response, because this campaign is about who can scream rhetoric the loudest
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