Ukraine to seek Nato membership, says PM Yatsenyuk - Polidicks

[QUOTE][IMG]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77246000/jpg/_77246776_023662148.jpg[/IMG] [B]Ukraine's prime minister has said he will ask parliament to put the country on a path towards Nato membership. [/B]Arseny Yatsenyuk said the government was sending a bill to MPs urging that Ukraine's non-bloc status be cancelled. The remarks come as Nato holds an emergency meeting to discuss the crisis in eastern Ukraine. The West has stepped up its accusations of direct Russian involvement in the conflict, following advances by pro-Russian rebels. On Thursday Nato released satellite images it said showed Russian forces inside Ukraine. and said more than 1,000 troops were operating there. Russia denies sending troops. Nearly 2,600 people have been killed since April, the UN says, when Russia's annexation of Crimea prompted the rebels to take control of large parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions in the far east of the country.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28978699"]Source[/URL]

Joining while you're at war isn't really fair to the other states. Why didn't they join before? We're not 1-800-call-a-nato afterall.

If the Ukraine joins NATO, would Russia just get up and leave? Or will they keep going and risk a bigger war?

[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;45834396]If the Ukraine joins NATO, would Russia just get up and leave? Or will they keep going and risk a bigger war?[/QUOTE] They won't join NATO any time soon. Nobody in NATO wants Ukraine to be part of it, and even if some do, it's going to be a long bureaucratic process that can last up to a decade of negotiations and by then Russia will already get whatever it wants from Ukraine.

[QUOTE=DrDevil;45834395]Joining while you're at war isn't really fair to the other states. Why didn't they join before? We're not 1-800-call-a-nato afterall.[/QUOTE] At this point Ukraine knows they are fighting a losing battle with the support Russia is funneling in. It's no surprise Ukraine is trying to get the same.

[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;45834396]If the Ukraine joins NATO, would Russia just get up and leave? Or will they keep going and risk a bigger war?[/QUOTE] Depends on how determined (or foolish) Silly Old Putler is.

[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;45834396]If the Ukraine joins NATO, would Russia just get up and leave? Or will they keep going and risk a bigger war?[/QUOTE] It would mean that all other nato states would have to attack russian troops in ukraine, effectively it would start a war between the NATO and russia.

Ukraine was seeking EU/NATO membership even before they were invaded so I don't think this is "1-800-CALL-NATO". They haven't made a great case for themselves, though, with how long it took to mobilize their military.

I doubt NATO would ever accept any country which is actually threatened by Russia. It'd mean they'd probably have to actually, you know, do something.

Ukraine won't get it because as nato has proven time and time again, big scary Russia makes them wet their pants.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;45834441]Ukraine was seeking EU/NATO membership even before they were invaded so I don't think this is "1-800-CALL-NATO". They haven't made a great case for themselves, though, with how long it took to mobilize their military.[/QUOTE] Ukraine wasn't exactly in the best position to deal with armed separatists who were supplied by Russia. In the event Ukraine would be accepted into NATO I highly doubt most states would be prepared to handle Russia regardless.

TBH I can't really remember the last time NATO actually did something. I guess their involvement in the Yugoslav Wars was something, but they mainly did bombing runs of Belgrade and other areas.

Well, there's also theory that Putin wants to provoke EU countries to start a (lost) war with Russia, so it's not Russia that attacks EU directly, but Russia would be responding to attack from NATO/EU. I reaaally wouldn't be suprised if Russia is provoking a bigger war here...

[QUOTE=RockmanYoshi;45834485]TBH I can't really remember the last time NATO actually did something.[/QUOTE] When was the last time a NATO member was under attack? [editline]29th August 2014[/editline] People like to believe NATO is meant to be the "good guys world police" when it's literally a defensive pact that already stretches it's competency when it tries to project power on countries outside of it.

[QUOTE=Amic;45834493]Well, there's also theory that Putin wants to provoke EU countries to start a (lost) war with Russia, so it's not Russia that attacks EU directly, but Russia would be responding to attack from NATO/EU. I reaaally wouldn't be suprised if Russia is provoking a bigger war here...[/QUOTE] If anyone were to start a war first I would haphazard a guess that it would be NATO over the EU. [QUOTE=Awesomecaek;45834494]People like to believe NATO is meant to be the "good guys world police" when it's literally a defensive pact that already stretches it's competency when it tries to project power on countries outside of it.[/QUOTE] This is unfortunately very true. Most states simply lack the offensive capabilities to take on a world superpower like Russia.

[QUOTE=WitheredGryphon;45834523]If anyone were to start a war first I would haphazard a guess that it would be NATO over the EU.[/QUOTE] I think you misread my post. I don't say that EU or NATO want to provoke the war, but Russia.

[QUOTE=Amic;45834493]Well, there's also theory that Putin wants to provoke EU countries to start a (lost) war with Russia, so it's not Russia that attacks EU directly, but Russia would be responding to attack from NATO/EU. I reaaally wouldn't be suprised if Russia is provoking a bigger war here...[/QUOTE] Putin isn't provoking anything. He's taking free land nobody capable of defending of it is caring about. It's up in the air how much of Ukraine will be enough to sate him, but he won't go anywhere past there.

[QUOTE=Amic;45834537]I think you misread my post. I don't say that EU or NATO want to provoke the war, but Russia.[/QUOTE] I meant that I would imagine NATO would be the one responding to Russian provocations over the EU considering this was the exact reason they were created.

[QUOTE=DrDevil;45834395]Joining while you're at war isn't really fair to the other states. Why didn't they join before? We're not 1-800-call-a-nato afterall.[/QUOTE] It's also against official NATO policy afaik. Seriously, this isn't happening.

[QUOTE=Virtanen;45834601]It's also against official NATO policy afaik. Seriously, this isn't happening.[/QUOTE] So long as Ukraine can acquire the approval of each NATO party as well as abide by the criteria set forth by those parties it won't be a problem. However, that criteria set forth is on a per-party basis, meaning that a NATO party could say "we feel you should resolve the conflict with Russia first" then their chances with NATO are shot.

Would not be surprised if they were denied.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;45834494]When was the last time a NATO member was under attack? [/QUOTE] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war]2008[/url] [QUOTE=Lonestriper;45834458]I doubt NATO would ever accept any country which is actually threatened by Russia. It'd mean they'd probably have to actually, you know, do something.[/QUOTE] Georgia. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war]2008 Russo-Georgian War[/url] Georgia is even farther from Atlantic Ocean and Europe and they're in NATO. [t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/a/a1/20120604021449!Georgia_Ukraine_Locator.png[/t] Georgia is a committed country to. Sending troops to Afghanistan as part of ISAF.

Uh, Georgia isn't a NATO member. [URL]http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/nato_countries.htm[/URL] Just CTRL+F Georgia. It isn't there. Georgia has certain ties with NATO but by no means is it a member of the organization. This means NATO was under no obligation to help Georgia. [editline]29th August 2014[/editline] It tried for NATO membership, but it never happened.

[QUOTE=Virtanen;45834601]It's also against official NATO policy afaik. Seriously, this isn't happening.[/QUOTE] Technically they aren't at war, they haven't declared war on Russia and vice versa, so I don't think that counts.

[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;45834396]If the Ukraine joins NATO, would Russia just get up and leave? Or will they keep going and risk a bigger war?[/QUOTE] With how far Russia is already going, it wouldn't surprise me if Putin, being the megalomaniac he is, would just keep going even further.

Should instant-accept them just to tell Russia to fuck off.

Because of this I suspect Putin will forgo securing the eastern provinces in favor of a single, concentrated push on Kiev. Once there they will probably remove the currant Ukrainian government by force. Taking control of a few eastern provinces will not seem worth the effort if Ukraine joins NATO. Don't be surprised if old Viktor Yanukovych is being triumphantly welcomed back into Kiev by the time of America's next Presidential election.

[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45843910]Because of this I suspect Putin will forgo securing the eastern provinces in favor of a single, concentrated push on Kiev. Once there they will probably remove the currant Ukrainian government by force. Taking control of a few eastern provinces will not seem worth the effort if Ukraine joins NATO. Don't be surprised if old Viktor Yanukovych is being triumphantly welcomed back into Kiev by the time of America's next Presidential election.[/QUOTE] Don't think Russia is interested in Kiev. At worst, they'll annex the Donetsk region. More likely, they're just interested in keeping the war going to weaken Ukraine, lessening their chance on any EU or NATO bids, decrease support for the western-friendly president, and increase their dependence on Russian imports.

[QUOTE=RockmanYoshi;45834485]TBH I can't really remember the last time NATO actually did something. I guess their involvement in the Yugoslav Wars was something, but they mainly did bombing runs of Belgrade and other areas.[/QUOTE] Afghanistan was a NATO operation.

Surely article 4 is invalid if you join NATO and someone is already in your country?? Might as well just hire NATO out as mercs.