Arkansas Faces Lawsuits Over Plan To Kill 8 Men In 10 Days
76 replies, posted
[quote]Arkansas’ plan to execute eight death-row prisoners within 10 days next month has been attacked as cruel and unusual in two federal lawsuits.
Suits filed Monday and Tuesday seek preliminary injunctions halting the four double executions scheduled from April 17 to April 27, alleging the rush violates the condemned men’s constitutional rights. The suits name Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson (R) and Department of Corrections Director Wendy Kelley as defendants.
At a time when use of the death penalty is in gradual decline across the U.S., Arkansas Attorney General Leslie Rutledge announced last month the state would begin executing inmates who had exhausted state-level appeals. Arkansas hasn’t executed anyone in 12 years, and now seeks to jump-start lethal injections in ways that depart from its own protocols and the typical practices of other states. [/quote]
[url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/arkansas-lawsuit-executions_us_58d969d5e4b00f68a5c965c2?[/url]
I never really saw the point of lethal injection tbh, it's much more humane + cheaper to just have a bullet through the brain stem.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;52028306]I never really saw the point of lethal injection tbh, it's much more humane + cheaper to just have a bullet through the brain stem.[/QUOTE]
It's also visceral and gory, and when you're talking about killing another human being, the killer wants to be seen as physically non-interactive of the killed's body as possible. It gives proponents a sense of the moral high ground, because anyone can kill anyone with a bullet to the brain.
[QUOTE=Keelwar;52028318]It's also visceral and gory, and when you're talking about killing another human being, the killer wants to be seen as physically non-interactive of the killed's body as possible. It gives proponents a sense of the moral high ground, because anyone can kill anyone with a bullet to the brain.[/QUOTE]
you don't get to pretend you have some moral high ground when you're killing another person
[QUOTE=Judas;52028324]you don't get to pretend you have some moral high ground when you're killing another person[/QUOTE]
Full agreement here.
While I am against the death penalty regardless, what is the most humane form of execution?
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52028335]While I am against the death penalty regardless, what is the most humane form of execution?[/QUOTE]
Humane seems kinda subjective. Some people would argue just shoot them, because it's fast. Some people say the lethal injection, because (if it worked effectively, which it doesn't) it would painlessly stop their heart; when it goes wrong though, it's very painful.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52028335]While I am against the death penalty regardless, what is the most humane form of execution?[/QUOTE]
Anything that destroys the brainstem as quickly as possible
If you're talking about something which doesn't involve gore then I guess gassing someone with nitrogen gas, iirc it puts people to sleep fast and they end up dying in their sleep
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52028335]While I am against the death penalty regardless, what is the most humane form of execution?[/QUOTE]
Depends on your definition of humanity.
I figure an instantaneous, practically painless death would be most humane, but it's not exactly humane to have some sort of device that crushes your skull into a pancake in a millisecond.
I don't understand the idea of humanity in execution. We're not going to pretend killing them serves a societal purpose, right? It's purely just to further our punishment complex for the imprisoned. So why don't we just imprison them for life?
I think damning someone to a life of isolation and probably prolonged mental illness is much worse than death, especially in the American prison system. In fact, in some ways it'd be even less humane.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;52028306]I never really saw the point of lethal injection tbh, it's much more humane + cheaper to just have a bullet through the brain stem.[/QUOTE]
nitrogen pretty much induces a delerium followed by near instant death, this isnt about efficiency or swiftness its about making it as showey and painful as legally allowed
think, hanging, electric chair, gas chamber. none of these are particularly quick, particularly efficient or paricularly painless
Death by lethal injection of heroin?
[QUOTE=Keelwar;52028378] So why don't we just imprison them for life?[/QUOTE]
prison costs money, and the money used to support someone holed up in prison doesn't just grow on trees. also, you can argue that someone who does a horrible crime and kills many people shouldn't have the luxury of being fed and given a bed to sleep in with a roof over their head rent free. criminals put in prison for life also get added security and are isolated from other inmates, so you could argue they've got it better than any of the others who are in risk of being forced into gangs and killed.
i'm not arguing one over the other but usually it comes down to this: do we keep the moral high-ground on those convicted and let them live, or do we save the money and end their lives? there's a discussion there also about whether or not a life like that is even worth living. and what do they bring to the rest of society living like that in prison? but if we kill them are we not just trying to make ourselves feel better about the loss of loved ones, and lowering our standards to the criminal's? there's no "correct" answer in today's western society.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52028335]While I am against the death penalty regardless, what is the most humane form of execution?[/QUOTE]
[media]https://youtube.com/watch?v=lfsMMVgIToA[/media]
[QUOTE=TheJoey;52028404]prison costs money, and the money used to support someone holed up in prison doesn't just grow on trees. also, you can argue that someone who does a horrible crime and kills many people shouldn't have the luxury of being fed and given a bed to sleep in with a roof over their head rent free. criminals put in prison for life also get added security and are isolated from other inmates, so you could argue they've got it better than any of the others who are in risk of being forced into gangs and killed.[/QUOTE]
Executions won't become less expensive than life imprisonment no matter how many times you say it.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52028416]Executions won't become less expensive than life imprisonment no matter how many times you say it.[/QUOTE]
got any facts to back that up? not antagonizing. i'd like to see them if you've got them.
[QUOTE=Sableye;52028395]nitrogen pretty much induces a delerium followed by near instant death, this isnt about efficiency or swiftness its about making it as showey and painful as legally allowed
think, hanging, electric chair, gas chamber. none of these are particularly quick, particularly efficient or paricularly painless[/QUOTE]
Why not just use the guilotine if you want a showey death
[QUOTE=TheJoey;52028423]got any facts to back that up? not antagonizing. i'd like to see them if you've got them.[/QUOTE]
When you're sentenced to death, there's a whole appeals process that is expensive and people often file as many appeals that they can since it's their life on the line. Add in the expensive poison for lethal injection and life imprisonment becomes cheaper.
lets just fuckin launch em into orbit
Given the fact that biologically, death is to be avoided and pain is an indicator that you're nearing it, I would say there aren't very many - if any - absolutely painless ways to execute someone.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;52028423]got any facts to back that up? not antagonizing. i'd like to see them if you've got them.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Pennsylvania has spent an estimated $272 million per execution since the Commonwealth reinstated its death penalty in 1978. Using data from a 2008 study by the Urban Institute, the Eagle calculated that cost of sentencing 408 people to death was an estimated $816 million higher than the cost of life without parole.[/QUOTE]
That's just in my state. More [URL="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty"]here[/URL], [URL="http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost"]here[/URL], [URL="https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2014/05/01/considering-the-death-penalty-your-tax-dollars-at-work/#d3c3f42664b3"]here[/URL]. It's much more expensive to use the death penalty, and we still end up killing innocent people sometimes. The only way to make it cheaper is to speed up the process - which will result in even more innocent people being killed. There is absolutely no positives to using capital punishment other than getting the smug satisfaction that we killed the fucker
[QUOTE=CreeplyTuna;52028502]we still end up killing innocent people sometimes. The only way to make it cheaper is to speed up the process - which will result in even more innocent people being killed.[/QUOTE]
This is pretty much the reason why [i] everyone [/i] should oppose capital punishment.
I'm not someone who holds an "all life is sacred" worldview, I can honestly sympathise with people who couldn't care less about the deaths of rapists and other twisted individuals.
But if there's even the slightest chance that someone innocent could end up being [i] murdered[/i] by the system, then it's completely unacceptable to continue. The risk just isn't worth it.
[QUOTE=fulgrim;52028611]This is pretty much the reason why [i] everyone [/i] should oppose capital punishment.
I'm not someone who holds an "all life is sacred" worldview, I can honestly sympathise with people who couldn't care less about the deaths of rapists and other twisted individuals.
But if there's even the slightest chance that someone innocent could end up being [i] murdered[/i] by the system, then it's completely unacceptable to continue. The risk just isn't worth it.[/QUOTE]
Honestly this is how I see it too. If capital punishment isn't cheaper than life in prison and we still manage to kill the innocent, our best bet is life in prison instead of capital punishment.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;52028306]I never really saw the point of lethal injection tbh, it's much more humane + cheaper to just have a bullet through the brain stem.[/QUOTE]
but the thing is if you [I]do[/I] somehow fuck up a bullet through the brain stem, it's about a million times worse for the executioner and the convict and whoever else might be watching a guy twitch around with most of his face missing
I would assume part of the reason firing squads and hanging have fallen out of practice is to help preserve the body for the family, assuming they want to give them a funeral.
I doubt anyone wants to look into the casket only to see what remains of their head after a bullet went through it, even if it has been cleaned up or partially reconstructed.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52028416]Executions won't become less expensive than life imprisonment no matter how many times you say it.[/QUOTE]
It's already cheaper to keep someone on death row for 10 years before executing them than it is to keep somebody imprisoned for 30, 40, or 50 years until they get old and die. Geriatric care costs for inmates are extremely high, yet nobody ever bothers discussing this fact for some reason when this topic comes up. Additionally, there's [i]way more[/i] prisoners serving LWOP in this country than there are on death row awaiting execution; cumulatively, LWOP is more expensive.
Not that it's a question of cost anyway. It's supposed to be a matter of justice. If you haven't done something particularly heinous and don't already have an extensive criminal background, then you're probably going to be imprisoned-- not executed. That's exactly why we don't use the death penalty often overall: it's for extreme cases...
...which is exactly what's going on with these men. Bruce Ward strangled an 18-year-old girl to death in a convenience store. Don Davis broke into a woman's house and shot her in the head. Ledell Lee attacked and raped several women, beat and strangled one woman to death, and also probably was responsible for the murder of a prostitute found dumped near some railroad tracks. Stacey Johnson beat and raped a woman before cutting her throat and killing her. Jack Jones murdered a woman back in 1995 and tried to murder her 11-year-old daughter (he was also tied to a cold case involving the rape and murder of another woman). Marcel Williams kidnapped a woman, forced her to withdraw money from her bank account from various ATMs, and finally killed her before burying her body in the woods. Kenneth Williams killed a cheerleader at the University of Arkansas, broke out of prison when he was serving a LWOP sentence, and murdered a 57-year-old man. Jason McGehee and several others tortured a 15-year-old boy by beating him, cutting him, and burning him before they finally strangled him to death.
There's no reason to keep these people alive, and yes, in spite of the false-equivalency being thrown around that executing them "makes us no better than they are", we will still be better than they are even as we go through with killing them. We aren't beating and raping innocent people, we aren't murdering innocent people, breaking into their houses, torturing them, etc. What a ridiculous amount of over-emotionalism.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;52028404]prison costs money, and the money used to support someone holed up in prison doesn't just grow on trees.[/QUOTE]
look, it's someone who hasn't researched this before
[QUOTE=Govna;52028780]It's already cheaper to keep someone on death row for 10 years before executing them than it is to keep somebody imprisoned for 30, 40, or 50 years until they get old and die. [/QUOTE]
Please read my post or do a basic google search. This is not true.
[editline]29th March 2017[/editline]
And as disgusting as those people are, there are very very few people who will even know or care when they are executed god knows when. Bruce Ward has been sitting on death row for over a decade, no one fucking cares about him, and it sounds like you just want him executed so you can say we killed the fucker
[QUOTE=Judas;52028324]you don't get to pretend you have some moral high ground when you're killing another person[/QUOTE]
I'm against the death penalty but um.. Yes you do? If somebody rapes and murders a child and you kill them for it, I'm pretty sure you're still standing on the high ground lol
[QUOTE=CreeplyTuna;52028856]Please read my post or do a basic google search. This is not true.[/QUOTE]
It actually is true. Do some basic math using the statistics that are available. [url=http://www.wesleylowe.com/cp.html]There were people who were pointing this out years ago before most of us were even computer literate[/url]:
[quote]There's a claim that it is more expensive for the state to execute a criminal than to incarcerate him for life. Many opponents present, as fact, that the cost of the death penalty is so expensive (at least $2 million per case?), that we must choose life without parole ("LWOP") at a cost of $1 million for 50 years. Predictably, these pronouncements may be entirely false. JFA (Justice for All) estimates that LWOP cases will cost $1.2 million - $3.6 million more than equivalent death penalty cases.
And life without parole prisoners face, on average, 30 or 40 years in prison while the annual cost of incarceration is $40,000 to $50,000 a year for each prisoner or more! There is no question that the up front costs of the death penalty are significantly higher than for equivalent LWOP cases. There also appears to be no question that, over time, equivalent LWOP cases are much more expensive - from $1.2 to $3.6 million - than death penalty cases. Opponents ludicrously claim that the death penalty costs, over time, 3-10 times more than LWOP.
The $34,200 is conservative, if TIME Magazine's (2/7/94) research is accurate. TIME found that, nationwide, the average cell cost is $24,000/yr. and the maximum security cell cost is $75,000/yr. (as of12/95). Opponents claim that LWOP should replace the DP. Therefore, any cost calculations should be based specifically on cell costs for criminals who have committed the exact same category of offense - in other words, cost comparisons are valid only if you compare the costs of DP-equivalent LWOP cases to the cost of DP cases. The $34,200/yr. cell cost assumes that only 20% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in maximum security cost cells and that 80% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in average cost cells. A very conservative estimate. The $60,000/yr., for those on death row, assumes that such cells will average a cost equal to 80% of the $75,000/yr. for the most expensive maximum security cells. A very high estimate. Even though we are calculating a 75% greater cell cost for the DP than for equivalent LWOP cases, equivalent LWOP cases appear to be significantly more expensive, over time, than their DP counterparts. For years, opponents have improperly compared the cost of all LWOP cases to DP cases, when only the DP equivalent LWOP cases are relevant.
Annual cost increases are based upon: 1) historical increases in prison costs, including judicial decisions regarding prison conditions,and the national inflation rate; 2) medical costs, including the immense cost of geriatric care, associated with real LWOP sentences; 3) injury or death to the inmate by violence; 4) injury or death to others caused by the inmate (3 and 4 anticipate no DP and that prisoners, not fearing additional punishment, other than loss of privileges, may increase the likelihood of violence. One could make the same assumptions regarding those on death row. The difference is that death row inmates will average 6 years incarceration vs. 50 years projected for LWOP); 5) the risk and the perceived risk of escape; and 6) the justifiable lack of confidence by the populace in our legislators, governors, parole boards and judges, i.e. a violent inmate will be released upon society.
$75,000 for trial and appeals cost, for DP-equivalent LWOP cases, assumes that the DP is not an option. It is believed that this cost estimate is very low. It is over-estimated that DP cases will cost twenty times more, on average, or $1.5 million. This exaggerated estimate states that the DP will have twenty times more investigation cost, defense and prosecution cost, including court time, guilt/innocence stage, sentencing stage and appellate review time and cost than DP equivalent LWOP cases. Even though abolitionists have greatly exaggerated the cost of DP cases, DP cases still prove to be significantly less expensive, over time, than the DP equivalent LWOP cases.
6 years on death row, prior to execution, reflects the new habeas corpus reform laws, at both the state and federal levels. Some anti-death penalty groups speculate that such time may actually become only 4 years. If so, then DP cases would cost even that much less than the DP equivalent LWOP cases. However, the average time on death row, for those executed from 1973-1994, was 8 years. Therefore, 6 years seems more likely. Even using the 8 year average, the DP equivalent LWOP cases are still $1 million more expensive than their DP counterparts ($2 million @ 2% annual increase).
Also, U.S. states that repeal death penalty laws do not see a significant savings in trial costs. In states where the death penalty is the maximum punishment, a larger number of defendants are willing to plead guilty and receive a life sentence. The greater cost of trials where the prosecution does seek the death penalty is offset, at least in part, by the savings from avoiding trial altogether in cases where the defendant pleads guilty.
The study -- [url=http://www.cjlf.org/publications/papers/wpaper09-01.pdf]The Death Penalty and Plea Bargaining of Life Sentences[/url] -- examined data gathered by the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics from 33 large urban counties. The study examined how many of the murder cases were resolved by guilty plea, how many went to trial and how many resulted in a sentence of at least 20 years. In states with the death penalty, the average county obtained sentences of 20 years or more in more than 50 percent of cases where the defendant was convicted of murder or voluntary manslaughter. In states without the death penalty, sentences of 20 years or more were obtained in just more than 40 percent of such cases, but only 5 percent of those were guilty pleas, or just more than a quarter of the number in the death penalty states.[/quote]
Why this isn't common knowledge, I have no idea. Maybe people just don't want to hear about it, or they don't want to do the work themselves. It's more expensive to keep somebody imprisoned for 30, 40, or 50 years than it is to keep them for, say, 10 years before executing them. And we also have more people serving LWOP sentences than we do awaiting execution.
Hell, just looking and individual cases could tell you that the costs over decades of incarceration for LWOP are excessive. Jonathan Holeman and Samuel Wright murdered an 87-year-old man and 58-year-old woman in 2002 (out at Lake Arrowhead in California), and they were both convicted in 2011. They were 31 at the time of their conviction. California spent something like [url=http://www.independent.com/news/2014/dec/22/mental-illness-requires-treatment-not-incarceratio/]$51,000 per prisoner every year[/url] back around 2009. If they were to live another 39 years and both die at the age of 70, then they would have costed the state a total of $3.978 million to house them ($1.989 million per man), and that would be a rough figure that doesn't even account for inflation or (again) geriatric costs that come with caring for elderly prisoners (who can easily cost two to three times what's normally spent on young, healthy inmates). As far as inflation and rising costs are concerned, that $51,000 per prisoner per year figure [url=http://www.lao.ca.gov/PolicyAreas/CJ/6_cj_inmatecost]has gone up to almost $71,000[/url].
Not that any of this matters, because the bottom line of justice isn't expense-- it's to ensure that justice is carried out.
[QUOTE=CreeplyTuna;52028856]And as disgusting as those people are, there are very very few people who will even know or care when they are executed god knows when. Bruce Ward has been sitting on death row for over a decade, no one fucking cares about him, and it sounds like you just want him executed so you can say we killed the fucker[/QUOTE]
Doesn't matter. This is the way the law works, and in this case, it's sensible. They won't cause problems for anybody else, they don't take up time or resources in needing to be cared for, families and friends of the victims can have closure, etc. It's not your call what happens here. And yeah, justice is enjoyable when it comes down to seeing sadistic people get theirs. That's how empathy is supposed to work when it comes to having a clear sense of being able to distinguish right from wrong: "You did wrong, and you're going to be punished for it."
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