German court acquits seven members of Wuppertal's 'Shariah police'
80 replies, posted
[IMG]http://www.dw.com/image/18856748_303.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE]A court in the western German city of Wuppertal has said that seven Islamists who formed a "shariah police" last year did not break any law. The men sparked outrage with their vigilante patrols in the city two years ago.
Judges at Wuppertal's district court said on Monday that the seven accused members of the group did not break any laws while wearing orange vests bearing the words "shariah police."
Furthermore, judges said that police in Wuppertal also did not find anything punishable about the men wearing the vests, which were not seized by the officers. There was therefore no reason to punish the men.
The "shariah police" caused a furore in 2014 when its members, headed by Salafist leader Sven Lau, patrolled streets near Wuppertal's central station, telling people to refrain from drinking alcohol, listening to music and gambling - in accordance with the Muslim religious code of conduct, known as the "Sharia."[/QUOTE]
Source: [url]http://www.dw.com/en/german-court-acquits-seven-members-of-wuppertals-shariah-police/a-36472883[/url]
These jokes write themselves.
I'm so glad impersonating a police officer and practicing law without a license are illegal here. But hopefully we won't have to arrest people for that in the first place.
This will just make more of these crazies adopt the "Sharia Police" and tell westerners to quit living like westerners in their own country to which they themselves fled to for protection. It always boggles my mind how ungrateful so many of them are.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51409674]I'm so glad impersonating a police officer and practicing law without a license are illegal here. But hopefully we won't have to arrest people for that in the first place.[/QUOTE]
"practicing law without a license" is quite a stretch
they're hardly impersonating police either; they're not trying to fool anyone
the real problem is them using intimidation to enforce their religion onto others
Seriously, if anyone else tried doing this with just being "Police" or "~XYZ Religious Group~ Police" you can bet your ass they would be in prison before the end of the night. The only reason these guys are getting off is because of the outcry it would cause with a bunch of rabid anti-rascist people.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;51409731]Seriously, if anyone else tried doing this with just being "Police" or "~XYZ Religious Group~ Police" you can bet your ass they would be in prison before the end of the night. The only reason these guys are getting off is because of the outcry it would cause with a bunch of rabid anti-rascist people.[/QUOTE]
It is like a free-pass. I am so tired of this shit over and over again because of the regressive progressive left and the fascistic anti-fascists intimidation moves against anyone with differing opinions.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;51409731]Seriously, if anyone else tried doing this with just being "Police" or "~XYZ Religious Group~ Police" you can bet your ass they would be in prison before the end of the night. The only reason these guys are getting off is because of the outcry it would cause with a bunch of rabid anti-rascist people.[/QUOTE]
The Jewish Shomrim (a neighborhood policing group consisting of Haredi volunteers) in NYC, Baltimore, and London would disagree with you on that.
In antwerp some idiot tried to do the same. he got attacked by a crowd of jews and was arrested for his own safety. (not even making that up)
If all they were doing is telling people to follow Sharia law I don't see the problem? Doesn't seem different from those Christian street preachers America loves telling everyone about how they're going to hell for being gay and having pre-marital sex.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;51409822]The Jewish Shomrim (a neighborhood policing group consisting of Haredi volunteers) in NYC, Baltimore, and London would disagree with you on that.[/QUOTE]
Those guys are officially sanctioned though.
[QUOTE=TacticalBacon;51409830]If all they were doing is telling people to follow Sharia law I don't see the problem? Doesn't seem different from those Christian street preachers America loves telling everyone about how they're going to hell for being gay and having pre-marital sex.[/QUOTE]
I've never seen a man wearing a "Jesus Police" vest, which is the problem. It's confusing. Don't write POLICE on your vest please.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51409681]This will just make more of these crazies adopt the "Sharia Police" and tell westerners to quit living like westerners in their own country to which they themselves fled to for protection. It always boggles my mind how ungrateful so many of them are.[/QUOTE]
Sven Lau, the leader, and seemingly one other of those pictured (racial profiling!) is a western convert. Like they say, converts are often the most zealous.
This is some aggressive proselytizing. Aren't there laws that prevent people from being a public nuisance? Can't imagine a good end to this, they're bound hit the limits of law at some point.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;51409731]Seriously, if anyone else tried doing this with just being "Police" or "~XYZ Religious Group~ Police" you can bet your ass they would be in prison before the end of the night. The only reason these guys are getting off is because of the outcry it would cause with a bunch of rabid anti-rascist people.[/QUOTE]
But even now, I find the idea that courts are intimidated by the left to be ridiculous.
Sharia law is barbaric and should be outlawed globally, its not an islamophobist statement to say that you just have to look at the law and see how fucking crazy stupid it is.
[QUOTE=Lolkork;51410367]No?[/QUOTE]
Yes? Pretending to be law enforcement or not being sanctioned neighborhood watch will get you in quiet a bit of trouble.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;51409731]Seriously, if anyone else tried doing this with just being "Police" or "~XYZ Religious Group~ Police" you can bet your ass they would be in prison before the end of the night. The only reason these guys are getting off is because of the outcry it would cause with a bunch of rabid anti-rascist people.[/QUOTE]
Oh please, you wouldn't give two shits if they were the "Christian Police" and they patrolled neighborhoods looking for Muslim criminals. If there isn't proof that they inflicted harm upon anybody, the courts have to let them go, that's just what's fair.
[QUOTE=Source;51410386]Sharia law is barbaric and should be outlawed globally, its not an islamophobist statement to say that you just have to look at the law and see how fucking crazy stupid it is.[/QUOTE]
It is not actual law in any Western country, there's no need to outlaw what already isn't legal. You can't prevent somebody from sticking to that code of conduct or prevent encouraging people to follow that code of conduct, though, that's what freedom of religion is about.
[quote] The "shariah police" caused a furore in 2014 when its members, headed by Salafist leader Sven Lau, patrolled streets near Wuppertal's central station, telling people to refrain from drinking alcohol, listening to music and gambling - in accordance with the Muslim religious code of conduct, known as the "Sharia."[/quote]
Is that really all they did? Tell people to follow sharia law? It really doesn't sound like that big a deal. Are there any sources of them actually threatening people, or were they just proselytizing? Lots of religions proselyse.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;51409731]Seriously, if anyone else tried doing this with just being "Police" or "~XYZ Religious Group~ Police" you can bet your ass they would be in prison before the end of the night. The only reason these guys are getting off is because of the outcry it would cause with a bunch of rabid anti-rascist people.[/QUOTE]
This is not correct.
Germany isn't as left-wing as people think. People seem to have that, politically, it's a bigger Scandinavia, but that's not true. While yes, Germany does have worker's rights and welfare and all that jazz, this is also the same country whose main party is a centre-right party called the Christian Democratic Union, they have managed to block gay marriage since 2005.
[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;51410424]I'm pretty sure you could tell people to keep it to themselves. Freedom of religion shouldn't mean freedom of trying to make people believe in the same things you do[/QUOTE]
If that were the case, Christian missionaries, Jehovah witnesses, and many other religious advocacy groups would be illegal. You have the power to choose what to believe in, and what the Western society expects you to do is to become informed about your own set of beliefs and decide what's best for you yourself. It would be barbaric to make Islam the only exception, just because we don't like it.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51409674]I'm so glad impersonating a police officer and practicing law without a license are illegal here. But hopefully we won't have to arrest people for that in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Except the judge ruled they weren't impersonating a police officer or practicing law.
They where just walking around in orange vests telling people that what they where doing would be against Shariah law. They did not enforce ennything, and did not look like actual officers.
Actually impersonating a police officer and practicing law without a license is illegal almost everywhere, including Germany.
okay so these guys are fucking jackasses but they didn't get arrested because [I]they weren't breaking the law[/I]
if you wanted to get a group of people together wearing "dipshit police" high vis jackets and go round reminding people not to be dipshits, you'd be well within your rights to
actually that sounds great
this is basically like that one church, the westboros baptist church
this is basically what they are doing
is it fucking retarded? yes
should they stop? yes
is it illegal? nope
[editline]22nd November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51409674]I'm so glad impersonating a police officer and practicing law without a license are illegal here. But hopefully we won't have to arrest people for that in the first place.[/QUOTE]
your making it sound like they were busting open doors, saying GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND, YOUR UNDER ARREST BECAUSE YOUR GAY or saying they were police lmao
if you read the article, they were 'telling people' not yelling at them and detaining them for drinking alcohol, or smacking beer bottles out of peoples hands lmao
this is more like 'we dont like this shit' and they made a useless group
[editline]22nd November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;51409731]Seriously, if anyone else tried doing this with just being "Police" or "~XYZ Religious Group~ Police" you can bet your ass they would be in prison before the end of the night. The only reason these guys are getting off is because of the outcry it would cause with a bunch of rabid anti-rascist people.[/QUOTE]
westboro baptist church basically does this shit, except they dont have police in their name. again, as I stated; this is still dumb, but not unheard of
EDIT: im stretching this definition; the point is, other religions have retards trying to 'remind' people of 'cultural values'
[QUOTE=Source;51410386]Sharia law is barbaric and should be outlawed globally, its not an islamophobist statement to say that you just have to look at the law and see how fucking crazy stupid it is.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it really is Islamophobic. You're fundamentally misunderstanding what Sharia law is. You see the extreme interpretations of theocratic dictatorships, zealots, and extremist organizations and assume they're the general trend, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. Sharia law is no more than a religious moral compass, much like canon law. Don't drink, don't gamble, help the poor, be humble, etc. It also, under its general applications, only applies to Muslims.
The vast majority of Muslims say they support Sharia law, because that's what Sharia Law is to them. It's humility, generosity, and respect. The examples of extremists and dictators who have enacted extreme interpretations of Sharia Law, with harsh punishments and oppressive tenants, does not change that, and a Muslim saying that they support Sharia Law does not in any way mean that they support extremist ideology.
You are speaking out of ignorance, and fueled by reactionary anger.
You are still leaving out parts of Sharia that does incorporate horrible elements of how to deal with crimes, politics, and women that are considered infallible words of god by a majority portion and are hugely backwards in modern societies.
I want some progressive Muslims, but Sharia has quite abit of a comprehensive rules that are still in effect.
[QUOTE=Tudd;51411296]You are still leaving out parts of Sharia that does incorporate horrible elements of how to deal with crimes, politics, and women that are considered infallible words of god by a majority portion and are hugely backwards in modern societies.
I want some progressive Muslims, but Sharia has quite abit of a comprehensive rules that are still in effect.[/QUOTE]
Which isn't entirely relevant to what these guys are doing. If, by Sharia, you are supposed to not do this and that, and you want to intentionally follow that, that's fine, the problem comes when you force those values on others. These men did not do any forcing.
[QUOTE=Tudd;51411296]You are still leaving out parts of Sharia that does incorporate horrible elements of how to deal with crimes, politics, and women that are considered infallible words of god by a majority portion and are hugely backwards in modern societies.
I want some progressive Muslims, but Sharia has quite abit of a comprehensive rules that are still in effect.[/QUOTE]
Again, not true in a generally practiced sense. Sharia tenants and punishments vary dramatically from place to place, and stoning women to death for adultry and cutting off the hands of thieves really only happens in extremist strongholds and under theocratic dictatorships like those in Saudi Arabia. I would definitely agree that these oppressive and violent interpretations are horrifying and should certainly be disallowed in Western civilization, but to say they represent the baseline and that [I]all[/I] interpretations need to be outlawed is extremely disingenuous and more than a little ideologically dangerous. Sharia is nowhere near this extreme among Westernized Muslims, outside of the fringe doctrine of radical zealots. Outlawing Sharia Law, full stop, is a blatant and misguided attack on basic religious liberties. It's also almost entirely unenforceable, lest we get to the level of French Burkini bans and forcing Muslim women in religious garb to disrobe on public beaches.
There is no singular Muslim Culture that dictates the norms and baselines for Muslims as a whole. We're dealing with a population of 1.6bn people spread out across the globe, split into hundreds, even thousands of distinct subcultures based on nation, city, sect, etc.
Even these "Sharia Police" in the article aren't especially alarming at face value. I mean, I admit that I know very little about the group and these [I]could[/I] be extremist sympathizers or zealots. In a general sense, however, a group of guys going around in high-vis vests telling people that drinking and gambling is ungodly are little more annoying than door-to-door Christians or street preachers. You can tell me what you believe in, and you can ask me to believe in it to, but that doesn't mean I will.
As long as all these folks were doing is saying that gambling and drinking violate Sharia, and were not promoting violence along with that message, I don't see much problem. Religious freedom, and all. As long as your religious rights don't prevent me from practicing whatever my beliefs are (and vice versa), then feel free to enjoy them.
[QUOTE=Samiam22;51411331]Which isn't entirely relevant to what these guys are doing. If, by Sharia, you are supposed to not do this and that, and you want to intentionally follow that, that's fine, the problem comes when you force those values on others. These men did not do any forcing.[/QUOTE]
Ayuh, this is what I'm getting at too.
Also (and this is not a jab at you, Tudd -- I'm making no assumptions about your personal stances), why is it that the GOP, which is the political party that most loudly champions religious freedom, is also the one that most readily wants to restrict it as a matter of its party platform? The hypocrisy of claiming to be pro-religious freedom while calling for the persecution or restriction of Muslims, LGBT rights, and reproductive healthcare never ceases to disappoint me.
Religious freedom equally protects all religions, and also guarantees freedom [I]from[/I] living under religious law. Just the same as Christians have no right to tell me that I cannot marry a man, should I so desire, Muslims have no right to tell me I can't drink or gamble if I'd like to. You can live [I]your[/I] life by [I]your[/I] values, and you can [I]teach[/I] me about those values and [I]ask[/I] me to live by them too. You sure as hell can't [I]make[/I] me, though. You can't legislate compliance with religious tenants; not without fundamentally uprooting the concept of religious freedom to begin with. So, yeah: Sharia Law as state law should obviously [I]never happen[/I], but Sharia Law as a set of values that Muslims choose to abide by for themselves is perfectly fine. Even using it to settle disputes and handle divorce proceedings is fine, so long as criminal action isn't the subject, and so long as the results themselves aren't criminal. Catholics do much the same with Canon Law.
I can't really get a clear picture of what they were doing from the article, but I doubt it's anything worse than what other religious people do on the streets, stop and talk to people, hand out leaflets, that sort of thing.
Honestly people seem to be really overreacting with that whole, 'impersonating law enforcement' thing. I can't think of any law enforcement agency that just wears orange high vis jackets, and if they didn't claim to be law enforcement officers when speaking to people, I have a hard time believing that was their intention.
The police thing probably just means like a literal meaning of the word, 'to police', like how people joke about the grammar police or whatever.
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;51411747]I can't really get a clear picture of what they were doing from the article, but I doubt it's anything worse than what other religious people do on the streets, stop and talk to people, hand out leaflets, that sort of thing.
Honestly people seem to be really overreacting with that whole, 'impersonating law enforcement' thing. I can't think of any law enforcement agency that just wears orange high vis jackets, and if they didn't claim to be law enforcement officers when speaking to people, I have a hard time believing that was their intention.
The police thing probably just means like a literal meaning of the word, 'to police', like how people joke about the grammar police or whatever.[/QUOTE]
I can see the problem with their overbearing "Shariah Police" theme, that's not anymore in the realm of innocuous moral guidance. The closest thing I can think of is Iranian Guidance Patrol ("morality police") that basically harasses people not seen acting by shariah law.
Some background for this case: [URL="http://www.dw.com/en/germany-wont-tolerate-sharia-police/a-17906086"]http://www.dw.com/en/germany-wont-tolerate-sharia-police/a-17906086[/URL]
"Shariah police" almost sounds tongue in cheek, tbh.
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