Terrorists achieve military superiority over Ukraine
109 replies, posted
[QUOTE]
[url]http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/02/23/ukraine-military-hard-pressed-by-russian-backed-rebels/23883435/[/url]
Ukraine's recent losses to separatist forces underscore how much its military is outmanned and outgunned by an adversary backed by Russian might and a willingness to commit troops and arms to the fight.
Last week, Ukrainian national forces lost the strategic railway hub at Debaltseve despite committing thousands of troops and hundreds of armored vehicles to its defense. Less than a month earlier, they lost the Donetsk airport, where troops won praise for putting up a long, tough fight before they were defeated in a city that has been a rebel stronghold.
Ukraine's losses were so bad that President Petro Poroshenko sought a cease-fire, as he did last summer, when his military lost two-thirds of its armored vehicles to Russian tanks, artillery and rockets.
"The Ukrainians knew they can't counter Russian tanks, Russian armored vehicles and Russian unmanned aerial vehicles," said retired general Wesley Clark, a former NATO commander. "They knew they were at a military disadvantage, and sought protection" under the cease-fire agreement signed Feb. 11 in Minsk, the capital of Belarus.
Poroshenko cites this imbalance when asking the West for defensive weapons, such as anti-tank missiles, advanced drones and long-range anti-artillery targeting equipment. Germany and France fear that giving Ukraine those weapons would escalate the conflict. President Obama postponed any decision, saying he wants to see if the cease-fire holds.
The cease-fire has been observed in most areas. On Monday, a Ukrainian military spokesman said separatist troops continued to mass near the eastern port city of Mariupol, attacking with artillery fire. Ukraine will not pull back its heavy weapons as required by the cease-fire agreement until the attacks end, Lt. Col. Anatoliy Stelmakh told reporters.
For any cease-fire to hold, Ukraine's military needs more equipment to enforce it, Clark said.
He pointed out that 29,000 separatist fighters are supplied with advanced Russian weaponry and are joined on the battlefield by as many as 14,000 Russian troops, including infantry, special operations, armor and artillery units. Russia denies sending troops or weapons to eastern Ukraine.
Ukraine has committed all but a handful of military units to hold the cease-fire line but lacks weapons comparable to what the separatists have, said Philip Karber, president of the Potomac Foundation, which has helped former Soviet bloc countries join NATO.
Both Clark and Karber traveled to Ukraine this month and consulted with military leaders there. The two analysts collaborated in April on a report that Clark presented at the White House describing Russia's strategy in eastern Ukraine. Karber has long advocated providing Ukraine with defensive weapons, and Clark now supports that position, too.
"Moscow's story line is that the separatists' ranks consist of coal miners and farmers beating the best of the Ukrainian military," Clark said. "It isn't so."[/QUOTE]
Great.......
And nobody cares because it's "not our problem."
Appeasement never works, and never has unfortunately
"Terrorists"
Why do people feel the need to do this? They are rebels fighting a war. What does calling them terrorists do?
[QUOTE=Reshy;47199396]And nobody cares because it's "not our problem."[/QUOTE]
Nobody cares because nobody wants to start shit with Russia.
[QUOTE=Reshy;47199396]And nobody cares because it's "not our problem."[/QUOTE]
No, it's more a case of 'We remember what happened the last time a western country invaded Russia and do not want to experience that sort of thing firsthand'.
[editline]23rd February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Explosions;47199422]"Terrorists"
Why do people feel the need to do this? They are rebels fighting a war. What does calling them terrorists do?[/QUOTE]
Make the media outlet more money. don't question things like that anymore, they always have the same answer, and questioning it isn't gonna get it to stop. Mass boycotts or regulation, yes, and something does need to be done about it. Asking 'why call them x' won't do anything.
If I lived in Ukraine I'd be leaving about now...
[QUOTE=Brandy92;47199541]If I lived in Ukraine I'd be leaving about now...[/QUOTE]
If only it were that easy for people to just pack up and leave, especially those with kids.
you have the same attitude as someone that'd ask "why don't homeless people just buy a house?"
I can understand why they're being overwhelmed by superior firepower. But why are the Ukrainian military leaders so shitty? Time and time again they've made the rebel commanders look like Hannibal incarnate, allowing themselves to become encircled and giving up ground left and right. They were going to allow ~6,000 troops be captured in Debaltseve before the individual unit commanders decided to leave on their own. I think supplying the government with weapons is off the table until we address this issue.
This might as well be the point where the US sees arming Ukraine is the best thing to do.
[QUOTE=TestECull;47199528]Make the media outlet more money. don't question things like that anymore, they always have the same answer, and questioning it isn't gonna get it to stop. Mass boycotts or regulation, yes, and something does need to be done about it. Asking 'why call them x' won't do anything.[/QUOTE]
Except it wasn't the media here. The linked article's title is "Analysis: Ukraine forces outmanned, outgunned by rebels" but the OP decided to call them terrorists for some reason.
[QUOTE=Brandy92;47199541]If I lived in Ukraine I'd be leaving about now...[/QUOTE]
Makes me think if there were any active Ukrainian facepunchers and how they're doing now, seeing as there's a draft.
[QUOTE=ProtoMob;47199594]Makes me think if there were any active Ukrainian facepunchers and how they're doing now, seeing as there's a draft.[/QUOTE]
There's Laserbeams, but I haven't seen him post here in a while.
IIRC, he lived in western Ukraine or near the capital.
[QUOTE=Blazyd;47199564]If only it were that easy for people to just pack up and leave, especially those with kids.
you have the same attitude as someone that'd ask "why don't homeless people just buy a house?"[/QUOTE]
And besides you can't even cross the border if you are draft age. You're only getting out if you find someone who can smuggle you out.
Ukrainian military is mostly outgunned by it's own incompetence.
It was one of the strongest militaries in Europe. It couldn't be overrun by a small amount of Russian troops.
I say small amount because you can't manage a big force while keeping it undercover.
I would say if Ukrainian army had a real thing to fight for, didn't send recruits to die for no reason, didn't alienate population and soldiers by killing innocents, didn't have fearmongering politicians that [b]need the war to keep going to get loans[/b] as their commanders, rebels would stand no chance.
Ukraine was totally capable of protecting itself. It's not like they needed US weapons or NATO support to do it.
Good news, I want their government to change. Anything is better than what's now.
[QUOTE=Blazyd;47199564]
you have the same attitude as someone that'd ask "why don't homeless people just buy a house?"[/QUOTE]
Leaving your home country is entirely different.
You can literally walk into an embassy and claim for asylum. A lot of countries will even pick up the bill for you and supply you with government housing and unemployment benefit on arrival.
[QUOTE=Reshy;47199396]And nobody cares because it's "not our problem."[/QUOTE]
But how does that actually concern you? You already meddled enough in Afghan and especially Vietnam to know better.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47199857]Ukrainian military is mostly outgunned by it's own incompetence.
It was one of the strongest militaries in Europe. It couldn't be overrun by a small amount of Russian troops.
I say small amount because you can't manage a big force while keeping it undercover.
I would say if Ukrainian army had a real thing to fight for, didn't send recruits to die for no reason, didn't alienate population and soldiers by killing innocents, didn't have fearmongering politicians that [b]need the war to keep going to get loans[/b] as their commanders, rebels would stand no chance.
Ukraine was totally capable of protecting itself. It's not like they needed US weapons or NATO support to do it.
Good news, I want their government to change. Anything is better than what's now.[/QUOTE]
I think the problem to their capability was the fact that Ukraine basically tore into a civil war. Do not forget that some people from the military swapped to rebels as well.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=ProtoMob;47199594]Makes me think if there were any active Ukrainian facepunchers and how they're doing now, seeing as there's a draft.[/QUOTE]
If I remember correct, he said that one of his friends was enlisted into service straight off his work place. Damn.
[QUOTE=Superwafflez;47200102]
You can literally walk into an embassy and claim for asylum. A lot of countries will even pick up the bill for you and supply you with government housing and unemployment benefit on arrival.[/QUOTE]
I severely doubt that. Name few?
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;47200284]I severely doubt that. Name few?[/QUOTE]
Mine. Throw away your passport and say you're from Syria.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;47200284]I severely doubt that. Name few?[/QUOTE]
Australia
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47199857]
Good news, I want their government to change. Anything is better than what's now.[/QUOTE]
good idea the russian government should take over ukraine because ukraine isn't a sovereign nation or anything. while we are at it, lets take over other governments too because their military isnt as good as the russian military
People don't really understand the domino effect, do they?
First Georgia (South Ossetia, but the line keeps slowly but surely creeping south), and now Eastern Ukraine.
It'll keep happening, and the Russians will keep snagging chunks of territory for themselves if we let them keep it up. Strong words and economic sanctions only go so far.
[QUOTE=ewitwins;47200659]People don't really understand the domino effect, do they?
First Georgia (South Ossetia, but the line keeps slowly but surely creeping south), and now Eastern Ukraine.
It'll keep happening, and the Russians will keep snagging chunks of territory for themselves if we let them keep it up. Strong words and economic sanctions only go so far.[/QUOTE]
I'm just waiting for Putin to croak. He can't live forever and he doesn't strike me as the type to have a trustworthy successor planned out.
[editline]23rd February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Banhfunbags;47200647]good idea the russian government should take over ukraine because ukraine isn't a sovereign nation or anything. while we are at it, lets take over other governments too because their military isnt as good as the russian military[/QUOTE]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_conquest] Right of Conquest: the right was traditionally accepted because the conquering force, being by definition stronger than any lawfully entitled governance which it may have replaced, was therefore more likely to secure peace and stability for the people, and so the Right of Conquest legitimises the conqueror towards that end.[/url]
:v:
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47199857]Ukrainian military is mostly outgunned by it's own incompetence.
It was one of the strongest militaries in Europe. It couldn't be overrun by a small amount of Russian troops.
I say small amount because you can't manage a big force while keeping it undercover.
I would say if Ukrainian army had a real thing to fight for, didn't send recruits to die for no reason, didn't alienate population and soldiers by killing innocents, didn't have fearmongering politicians that [b]need the war to keep going to get loans[/b] as their commanders, rebels would stand no chance.
Ukraine was totally capable of protecting itself. It's not like they needed US weapons or NATO support to do it.
Good news, I want their government to change. Anything is better than what's now.[/QUOTE]
hahaha jesus christ has the past couple days brought out all the brainwashed russians?
[QUOTE=Explosions;47199582]Except it wasn't the media here. The linked article's title is "Analysis: Ukraine forces outmanned, outgunned by rebels" but the OP decided to call them terrorists for some reason.[/QUOTE]
fucking this. we get it OP, we know the side you're on. but the fact you have to resort to petty namecalling in the thread title in the name of sensationalism is childish.
[QUOTE=MrBunneh;47200726]fucking this. we get it OP, we know the side you're on. but the fact you have to resort to petty namecalling in the thread title in the name of sensationalism is childish.[/QUOTE]
I remember mods talking about making it a rule to have the thread title be the same as the article title. I can understand that ruling now, a bit.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47200708]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_conquest] Right of Conquest: the right was traditionally accepted because the conquering force, being by definition stronger than any lawfully entitled governance which it may have replaced, was therefore more likely to secure peace and stability for the people, and so the Right of Conquest legitimises the conqueror towards that end.[/url]
:v:[/QUOTE]
good so we are on the same page
[QUOTE=ewitwins;47200659]People don't really understand the domino effect, do they?
First Georgia (South Ossetia, but the line keeps slowly but surely creeping south), and now Eastern Ukraine.
It'll keep happening, and the Russians will keep snagging chunks of territory for themselves if we let them keep it up. Strong words and economic sanctions only go so far.[/QUOTE]
I'd be reluctant about anything titled "Domino" considering the last time America based its foreign policy on it, we ended up making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
[QUOTE=Explosions;47199422]"Terrorists"
Why do people feel the need to do this? They are rebels fighting a war. What does calling them terrorists do?[/QUOTE]
the taliban are terrorists, al nusra are terrorists, ISIS are terrorists, what makes these guys any different because they're slavic they can't be terrorists? the modern definition of a rebel force is terrorism, so why are we too hasty to give them the label they deserve
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