Founder of the Swedish Pirate Party comes out in support of re-legalisation of child pornography
105 replies, posted
The entire article is too long to post here, but I recommend you read the whole thing.
[quote]
ABSTRACT
This article argues that our current laws on the topic are counterproductive, because they protect child molesters instead of bringing them to justice, they criminalize a generation of normally-behaving teenagers which diverts valuable police resources from the criminals we should be going after, and they lead to censorship and electronic book burning as well as unacceptable collateral damage to innocent families. Child abuse as such is not condoned by anybody, and this article argues that current laws are counterproductive in preventing and prosecuting it.
[/quote]
[url]http://falkvinge.net/2012/09/07/three-reasons-child-porn-must-be-re-legalized-in-the-coming-decade/[/url]
TL;DR:
[quote]
It’s not illegal to film a murder.
It’s not illegal to possess a film of a murder.
But it’s still illegal to murder people.
And it’s illegal to initiate a murder for the purpose of filming it.
If you have taken part in a murder and have film of it, the film may be usable as proof against you.
I can’t see that Rick suggests anything different here – i.e., I see no suggestions that it should be OK to molest children for the purpose of filming it. That’s good.
In the end it’s as simple as this: it should never be illegal to merely possess information, any information.*
[/quote]
A follow up article elaborating on previous points, adding more examples and documenting the largely positive response.
[url]http://falkvinge.net/2012/09/11/child-porn-laws-arent-as-bad-as-you-think-theyre-much-much-worse/[/url]
Swedish association of journalists shows support.
[url]http://journalisten.se/nyheter/lindblom-hulthen-barnporrlagen-ar-censur[/url]
Austrian Pirate party also shows support.
[url]http://piratenpartei.at/stellungnahme-der-piratenpartei-osterreichs-zu-rick-falkvinges-blogeintrag-zu-kinderpornographie/[/url]
I understand the points he makes. A very interesting case indeed.
I agree with some of his points. That title though is very sensationalist
I don't understand why child porn is a worse offensive than child rape. I never knew that and it's pretty fucked up. I agree on that point
I agree with him that our current laws turn people who "sext" or film themselves having consensual sex, into criminals is fucked and needs to be fixed. Along with people who either accidentally film, or accidentally view child porn, that also should be fixed
[QUOTE=download;37647663]I agree with some of his points. That title though is very sensationalist
I don't understand why child porn is a worse offensive than child rape. I never knew that and it's pretty fucked up. I agree on that point
I agree with him that our current laws turn people who "sext" or film themselves having consensual sex, into criminals is fucked and needs to be fixed. Along with people who either accidentally film, or accidentally view child porn, that also should be fixed[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure why the title is sensationalist, Rick Falkvinge, the founder of the Swedish Pirate Party, wants laws about the possession of child pornography to return to their 1999 state of legality, i.e. be re-legalised.
That headline man.
It's like something straight out of Fox News compared to what the article is actually about.
Also he's pretty much right.
Too much resource is wasted on prosecuting someone who weren't hurting or offending anybody, while those who actually have receive a lax punishment compared to what they did.
[QUOTE=Van-man;37647710]That headline man.
It's like something straight out of Fox News compared to what the article is actually about.
Also he's pretty much right.
Too much resource is wasted on prosecuting someone who weren't hurting or offending anybody, while those who actually have receive a lax punishment compared to what they did.[/QUOTE]
The title of the linked article is "Three reasons possession of child porn must be re-legalized in the coming decade" All I did was shorten and add it's author.
That headline is NOT going to help his cause.
[QUOTE=download;37647663]I agree with some of his points. That title though is very sensationalist
[B]
I don't understand why child porn is a worse offensive than child rape. I never knew that and it's pretty fucked up. I agree on that point
[/B]
I agree with him that our current laws turn people who "sext" or film themselves having consensual sex, into criminals is fucked and needs to be fixed. Along with people who either accidentally film, or accidentally view child porn, that also should be fixed[/QUOTE]
it's because it's so easy to get child porn.
the punishment needs to be more severe.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;37647775]it's because it's so easy to get child porn.
the punishment needs to be more severe.[/QUOTE]
A video of a murder or a robbery are a lot easier to obtain than actually killing or robbing someone, should they have a more severe punishment than actually killing and stealing?
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;37647784]A video of a murder or a robbery are a lot easier to obtain than actually killing or robbing someone, should they have a more severe punishment than actually killing and stealing?[/QUOTE]
By the logic of countless lawmakers, Yes?
I can't find my self agreeing much with the article at all, and some of his examples are kind of ridiculous to be honest, for example.
[QUOTE]
So, on your lovely stroll in the park, you turn a corner, and to your shock, see a 12-year-old being brutally raped right in front of you.
[B]WHAM. You are now a [I]criminal,[/I] guilty of recording, distributing, and possessing child pornography.[/B] You are now guilty of a crime that [URL="http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/yyl8n/til_that_in_the_united_states_possession_of_child/"]carries higher penalties[/URL] than the rape and molestation of a child right taking place right in front of you.
The rapist notices you and laughs, knowing that you can’t do anything. If you were to call the police and offer to be a witness to the rape taking place before you, you would lose your job, children, and house over the worse crime you have just committed. As you struggle in panic to delete any and all imagery that could be used to convict the child rapist, hoping that nobody was able to make a copy, you see another person coming into view of the rapist and reacting just like you did.
[B]And on the ground, a 12-year old who is being raped watches helplessly as witnesses turn away and delete all evidence of the crime being committed against her.[/B]
This is not some far-fetched science fiction scenario. This is exactly what will happen as our mobile phones take the next step, which has already started, and we will be there in less than ten years. (The very first iPhone was released to sales about [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_(original)"]five[/URL] years ago, for perspective – imagine what will happen in twice more the time since then.)[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Saxon;37647875]I can't find my self agreeing much with the article at all, and some of his examples are kind of ridiculous to be honest, for example.[/QUOTE]
It may seem ridiculous but based on current laws accidentally obtaining or producing child pornography is considered illegal and carries higher penalties than actually molesting children.
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;37647784]A video of a murder or a robbery are a lot easier to obtain than actually killing or robbing someone, should they have a more severe punishment than actually killing and stealing?[/QUOTE]
Is possession of child porn even more severely prosecuted than actual child rape or is this some fanciful issue
[editline]13th September 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;37647924]It may seem ridiculous but based on current laws accidentally obtaining or producing child pornography is considered illegal and carries higher penalties than actually molesting children.[/QUOTE]
[citation needed]
[quote]
So, on your lovely stroll in the park, you turn a corner, and to your shock, see a 12-year-old being brutally raped right in front of you.
WHAM. You are now a criminal, guilty of recording, distributing, and possessing child pornography.[/quote]
what!?
i'm pretty sure that's not how the law works, i mean recording, distributing, and possessing child pornography are quite different from walking in the park and catching a rape
this is dumb, i want to disagree just because it means i won't be on the same side as this genius
also producing child pornography and child molestation are one in the same
ed:
oh "accidentaly", I have to read more
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;37647936]Is possession of child porn even more severely prosecuted than actual child rape or is this some fanciful issue
[editline]13th September 2012[/editline]
[citation needed][/QUOTE]
Did you even read the article?
[url]http://columbiachronicle.com/discrepancy-in-sex-offender-sentencing/[/url]
[editline]13th September 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;37647948]what!?
i'm pretty sure that's not how the law works, i mean recording, distributing, and possessing child pornography are quite different from walking in the park and catching a rape
this is dumb, i want to disagree just because it means i won't be on the same side as this genius[/QUOTE]
That is how the law works, just because it's absurd doesn't mean it's not true. The point was about Google glass and similar technologies that would record everything you observe and under current laws this would count as possession of child pornography, which in some cases has higher penalties than actual molestation.
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;37647972]Did you even read the article?
[url]http://columbiachronicle.com/discrepancy-in-sex-offender-sentencing/[/url][/QUOTE]
this article didn't mention that accidentally obtaining child porn was prosecuted more
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;37647972]
That is how the law works, just because it's absurd doesn't mean it's not true. The point was about Google glass and similar technologies that would record everything you observe and under current laws this would count as possession of child pornography, which in some cases has higher penalties than actual molestation.[/QUOTE]
no law isn't automatic.
if you capture a rape in progress and use it to capture the criminal no reasonable DA is going to charge you.
I can understand the motives, but that is totally not the right thing to campaign for...
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;37647997]this article didn't mention that accidentally obtaining child porn was prosecuted more[/QUOTE]
It mentions that possession is and if you obtain it deliberately or not is not considered legally relevant.
[quote]"In the end it’s as simple as this: it should never be illegal to merely possess information, any information."[/quote]
I agree with this. The people who make the child porn are the ones to go after, not those who merely possess it.
Reminds me of a stand-up bit from the Louis CK sitcom [I]Louie[/I] for some reason where it was suggested that if people went easier on paedophiles they might get their kids back alive - like dropped off after soccer practice "hey I fucked your kid, here you go" instead of killing them and dumping their bodies. I guess the psychological trauma could be comparable to living whilst dead inside, though. Feels good to reflect on taboo subjects.
[QUOTE=thisispain;37648010]no law isn't automatic.
if you capture a rape in progress and use it to capture the criminal no reasonable DA is going to charge you.[/QUOTE]
Maybe not but, but going purely by the word of the law you would be charged.
[editline]13th September 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=JustExtreme;37648020]I agree with this. The people who make the child porn are the ones to go after, not those who merely possess it.
Reminds me of a stand-up bit from the Louis CK sitcom [I]Louie[/I] for some reason where it was suggested that if people went easier on paedophiles they might get their kids back alive - like dropped off after soccer practice "hey I fucked your kid, here you go" instead of killing them and dumping their bodies. I guess the psychological trauma could be comparable to living whilst dead inside, though. Feels good to reflect on taboo subjects.[/QUOTE]
Most paedophiles don't kill their victims. I also recommend you look into the Rind et al controversy, according to this peer reviewed study most of the psychophysical harm associated with molestation is caused by the shaming of the child by friends and family rather than the actual molestation.
[url]http://digilib.bc.edu/reserves/sc563/mcgu/sc56310.pdf[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rind_et_al._controversy[/url]
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;37648026]Maybe not but, but going purely by the word of the law you would be charged.[/QUOTE]
again law doesn't work that way
you don't get charged and instantly throw into jail the minute you do something the wording says is wrong
[QUOTE=thisispain;37648032]again law doesn't work that way
you don't get charged and instantly throw into jail the minute you do something the wording says is wrong[/QUOTE]
I accept that one aspect of the article isn't perfect, but it is not all the article is the other 95% of it is much more thought provoking.
Don't get why he would make up that future story. It does seem sort of far fetched but on the general idea I agree very much. I've been arguing this for quite a while actually...
Here's a situation in the current world that I think works better;
Imagine a scenario where you’re taking a stroll in a forest. At one point you find an inconspicuous USB stick lying in the grass. You take it with you because why the hell not. Curious as you are, you plug it in and see that it's full of child pornography.
I'm not sure what you specifically would do in this situation, but it seems obvious to me that many people wouldn't know what to do. Here they are, in possession of tons of child porn. Yet, they're also in possession of important evidence?
I'm sure you could take it and report it to the police without getting hit by the law yourself. But you [I]could[/I] be punished for possessing it. Thus, I imagine that it can lead to some situations like that. But still, I think the best point is comparing it to videos of murder.
If you found a video of murder you wouldn't even have these thoughts because possessing a video of somebody being murdered isn't something anybody thinks about. You can download, upload, share and do anything with such a video. And say you happen to find a snuff video one day, a never seen before snuff video. You can, without a worry, report it and it will be used as evidence.
It's just a weird situation when the material itself is the crime. Sometimes they have to show the pictures in court to determine whether something is child porn. How the fuck does that work? If it is, then they're literally distributing and possessing child pornography themselves. In most other cases, you have a crime and then you bring the evidence to court. But when it comes to child porn, the evidence [I]is also[/I] the crime.
[QUOTE=download;37647663]
I don't understand why child porn is a worse offensive than child rape. I never knew that and it's pretty fucked up. I agree on that point[/QUOTE]
While I don't agree that possessing data should carry a higher penalty, I think the main reason that child porn is illegal is because people are helping create a demand every time they download it, which encourages more people to make and distribute it.
I suppose it should only really be charged for if there is sufficient evidence that the person in question had an intent to obtain it, and it could be proven that it was theirs.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;37648087]
It's just a weird situation when the material itself is the crime. Sometimes they have to show the pictures in court to determine whether something is child porn. How the fuck does that work? If it is, then they're literally distributing and possessing child pornography themselves. In most other cases, you have a crime and then you bring the evidence to court. But when it comes to child porn, the evidence [I]is also[/I] the crime.[/QUOTE]
It works a bit differently when it becomes evidence, just like illegal drugs. Like in the scenario above if you found a USB stick full of child porn, there is no guarantee you can prove it isn't yours, though I'm very doubtful they would actually charge someone for bringing it in if there was no evidence that it belonged to that person.
I know its a slightly different story, but someone that used to go to my school accidentally left his USB stick at work, a coworker checked it to see to whom it belonged, and discovered that it had loads of child porn on it. He reported it to the police, and after some investigation the guy who left it at work ended up going to jail.
[QUOTE=Cushie;37648105]While I don't agree that possessing data should carry a higher penalty, I think the main reason that child porn is illegal is because people are helping create a demand every time they download it, which encourages more people to make and distribute it.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that just speculation though? providing no money changes hands in what sense does it create demand? if someone really wanted to and had the opportunity to molest a child I don't see why the size of the audience would be a factor, and besides as discussed in the article some child pornography is produced by adolescents of themselves and their peers.
[quote]
Our current laws treat the video of a seven-year-old being brutally raped, on one hand, and two seventeen-year-olds who have eyes for nothing in the world but each other making consensual passionate love, on the other hand, as the exact same thing. This is mind-bogglingly odd.
The former is one of the most horrifying things you can think of – trying to picture it makes you cringe in your chair. The latter is one of the most beautiful things you can possibly picture – trying to see it makes your eyes well up with tears from joy. Why are one of the most horrible things and one of the most beautiful things in the world considered one and the same by the law? They’re obviously nowhere similar and have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. I’ll return to the answer to that.
[/quote]
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;37648121]Isn't that just speculation though? providing no money changes hands in what sense does it create demand? if someone really wanted to and had the opportunity to molest a child I don't see why the size of the audience would be a factor, and besides as discussed in the article some child pornography is produced by adolescents of themselves and their peers.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure, that's just how I'd see it.
Also isn't the quote you put a bit misleading? A lot of things are exactly the same by the word of the law, but the outcome of a case is entirely dependent on the situation. Plus there is quite a difference between forced rape and what is obviously consensual sex, which few people would decide to ruin someone's life over.
[QUOTE=Cushie;37648166]I'm not sure, that's just how I'd see it.
Also isn't the quote you put a bit misleading? A lot of things are exactly the same by the word of the law, but the outcome of a case is entirely dependent on the situation. Plus there is quite a difference between forced rape and what is obviously consensual sex, which few people would decide to ruin someone's life over.[/QUOTE]
The point is naked images of a 17 year old and pornographic images of a 7 year old are both considers child pornography in the eyes of the law and people can and do get prosecuted for it.
[url]http://www.judiciaryreport.com/teen_arrested_for_posting_nude_photos.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/teen-nabbed-naked-myspace-photos?page=1[/url]
[url]http://freestudents.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/there-is-fury-and-and-sadness-inside.html[/url]
Even "sexting" is legally considered child pornography.
[url]http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/06/teenage-sexting-is-becoming-the-norm/[/url]
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;37648087]Don't get why he would make up that future story. It does seem sort of far fetched but on the general idea I agree very much. I've been arguing this for quite a while actually...
Here's a situation in the current world that I think works better;
Imagine a scenario where you’re taking a stroll in a forest. At one point you find an inconspicuous USB stick lying in the grass. You take it with you because why the hell not. Curious as you are, you plug it in and see that it's full of child pornography.
I'm not sure what you specifically would do in this situation, but it seems obvious to me that many people wouldn't know what to do. Here they are, in possession of tons of child porn. Yet, they're also in possession of important evidence?
I'm sure you could take it and report it to the police without getting hit by the law yourself. But you [I]could[/I] be punished for possessing it. Thus, I imagine that it can lead to some situations like that. But still, I think the best point is comparing it to videos of murder.
If you found a video of murder you wouldn't even have these thoughts because possessing a video of somebody being murdered isn't something anybody thinks about. You can download, upload, share and do anything with such a video. And say you happen to find a snuff video one day, a never seen before snuff video. You can, without a worry, report it and it will be used as evidence.
It's just a weird situation when the material itself is the crime. Sometimes they have to show the pictures in court to determine whether something is child porn. How the fuck does that work? If it is, then they're literally distributing and possessing child pornography themselves. In most other cases, you have a crime and then you bring the evidence to court. But when it comes to child porn, the evidence [I]is also[/I] the crime.[/QUOTE]
Didn't a guy get done for something like this a while back? He got arrested when he tried to report a computer (that I think he bought off someone, can't remember) that was full of child pornography to the police.
[editline]13th September 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cushie;37648166]Plus there is quite a difference between forced rape and what is obviously consensual sex, which few people would decide to ruin someone's life over.[/QUOTE]
That's not how the law's written. It's pretty black and white, which never really applies perfectly to any real situation..
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