Christian nursery worker sacked over anti-gay views wins tribunal case - Polidicks

[QUOTE]A Christian nursery worker who was sacked after airing her views on homosexuality and marriage has won a discrimination claim against her former employer, her legal representatives have said. Sarah Mbuyi, 31, was dismissed by Newpark Childcare in Shepherd’s Bush, west London, for gross misconduct after telling a lesbian colleague her gay lifestyle was a sin. She claimed the sacking breached European law on religious freedom. The Belgian national, from Tottenham, north London, who had been working for a year with children aged under one, denied harassment and maintained that her colleague approached her asking about religion and same-sex marriage and was angry she had been barred from marrying her partner in a church. The Christian Legal Centre (CLC), which supported Mbuyi, said an employment tribunal at Watford had found she was directly discriminated against because of her belief that homosexual practice is contrary to the Bible.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/jun/07/christian-nursery-worker-sacked-over-anti-gay-views-wins-tribunal-case[/url]

While she is a disgusting individual, judging by the information provided, it doesn't exactly look like she was the instigator, so I don't feel that she was in the wrong here.

TBH it really depends on how it really went. If the lesbian person approached her and asked for her opinion on her lifestyle and she told her off, it's not really her fault that the answer upset her. If it was the Christian who went and preached without provocation, that would be probably disruptive to the work environment. As much as I dislike her ideology, nobody should be punished for what their ideology is, if they aren't pushing it onto others.

They should make a law to keep your views to your self in the work place to prevent these kinds of issues.

[QUOTE=FLIPPY;47905938]They should make a law to keep your views to your self in the work place to prevent these kinds of issues.[/QUOTE] You gave your opinion, AT WOOORK?! ARREST THE CRIMINAL SCUM

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." While I vehemently disagree with her opinion, if she was asked about it this is in no way harassment.

[QUOTE=FLIPPY;47905938]They should make a law to keep your views to your self in the work place to prevent these kinds of issues.[/QUOTE] Believe that science explains many mysteries of the universe? Too bad, don't share your views Think its wrong to steal from the company? Keep it yourself! Think people should take care of their bodies and hygiene? Cant let those ideas out in the workplace. People are going to share what they believe and some people believe stupid things. It shouldn't be illegal to say something you believe just because there might be someone who disagrees with you.

[QUOTE=PatrickT;47905966]You gave your opinion, AT WOOORK?! ARREST THE CRIMINAL SCUM[/QUOTE] If someone at work asks you if you're a racist and you "yeah I hate niggers" you'll probably get fired even if it is your "opinion"

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47906445]If someone at work asks you if you're a racist and you "yeah I hate niggers" you'll probably get fired even if it is your "opinion"[/QUOTE] Exactly, discriminating against sexuality somehow tends to get a free pass under current laws. A good test is "If I replace 'homosexual' with 'black', would it still be "acceptable" to say?".

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47906445]If someone at work asks you if you're a racist and you "yeah I hate niggers" you'll probably get fired even if it is your "opinion"[/QUOTE] What if you just said "Yes"?

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;47906505]What if you just said "Yes"?[/QUOTE] This woman didn't just say "yes" she went on about how she thinks its a sin, it's practically the same as saying how much you dislike black people but for some reasons gets a free pass because it's tied into religion.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47906526]This woman didn't just say "yes" she went on about how she thinks its a sin, it's practically the same as saying how much you dislike black people but for some reasons gets a free pass because it's tied into religion.[/QUOTE] Not really. [QUOTE]I only ever responded to questions that my colleague asked me and wanted the very best for her[/QUOTE] Besides, saying something is a sin is not the same as saying you hate something.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;47906580]Not really. Besides, saying something is a sin is not the same as saying you hate something.[/QUOTE] It is saying something is so wrong it can be related to evil. How is that not related to hatred? I don't think she should have been fired, but all the same.

Shocking, asking a Christian what they think of gays and getting that response, who would have thought. Stupid that she got fired over that, as wrong as her views may be. Also how the hell can you make race analogies? It's not even comparable lmao.

[QUOTE=Tasm;47906727]Shocking, asking a Christian what they think of gays and getting that response, who would have thought. Stupid that she got fired over that, as wrong as her views may be. Also how the hell can you make race analogies? It's not even comparable lmao.[/QUOTE] How is not comparable? They're both cases of bigotry against a minority, both minorities of which have been persecuted throughout history.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47906610]It is saying something is so wrong it can be related to evil. How is that not related to hatred? I don't think she should have been fired, but all the same.[/QUOTE] As I understand, sin is not necessarily evil. Any unlawfulness can be considered a sin.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;47906750]As I understand, sin is not necessarily evil. Any unlawfulness can be considered a sin.[/QUOTE] And anything unlawful is considered evil, thus why they used to stone people to death for it

[QUOTE=Tasm;47906727]Shocking, asking a Christian what they think of gays and getting that response, who would have thought. Stupid that she got fired over that, as wrong as her views may be. Also how the hell can you make race analogies? It's not even comparable lmao.[/QUOTE] Please share why it isn't comparable - it is one of the best, most relevant, comparisons that can be made. We're expected to tolerate discrimination against us on a daily basis. I am not legally allowed to be in dozens of countries. Just because hate speech has been written in a religious text does not mean that it should be above criticism. If you hold these beliefs about homosexuality, no matter the reason, then you are a homophobe. It is not (or should not) be justifiable to hate a minority group because of religion.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47906759]And anything unlawful is considered evil, thus why they used to stone people to death for it[/QUOTE] Not every sin leads to death. That's all in John I believe, not really into this bible stuff.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47906759]And anything unlawful is considered evil, thus why they used to stone people to death for it[/QUOTE] Sin is not evil, not anymore. Hell, even with the catholic church and confessionals, sin as seen as a test to overcome. The failure is when you do not overcome and instead embrace the sin.

[QUOTE=Noss;47906788]Please share why it isn't comparable - it is one of the best, most relevant, comparisons that can be made. We're expected to tolerate discrimination against us on a daily basis. I am not legally allowed to be in dozens of countries. Just because hate speech has been written in a religious text does not mean that it should be above criticism. If you hold these beliefs about homosexuality, no matter the reason, then you are a homophobe. It is not (or should not) be justifiable to hate a minority group because of religion.[/QUOTE] Because if you hold a belief that being a homosexual is a choice (which the Christians do), then only one of the issues is something you are born with and one is a lifestyle choice the people can change if they wish. And again, "I think what you are doing is wrong" is something else than "I hate you people". You could also have somebody go either "I think obese people should work hard on losing weight" vs "I think we should push fat people into a spike pit using bulldozers", again, only one of these statements would end up with you likely getting punished. I am fairly sure that if your racism was something more akin to "I think that people of race A shouldn't have a democratic word in deciding matters of race B", a lot of places (probably not politics because in that environment, it's way too sensitive), nobody would really care enough to single you out for it.

[QUOTE=Swilly;47906869]Sin is not evil, not anymore. Hell, even with the catholic church and confessionals, sin as seen as a test to overcome. The failure is when you do not overcome and instead embrace the sin.[/QUOTE] So they need to overcome their homosexuality.. That's even worse.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47906610]It is saying something is so wrong it can be related to evil. How is that not related to hatred? I don't think she should have been fired, but all the same.[/QUOTE] Many Christians believe smokers and drinkers are sinners, but I don't think any of them believe they are anywhere near "I hate niggers" level person would.

[QUOTE=Swilly;47906869]Sin is not evil, not anymore. Hell, even with the catholic church and confessionals, sin as seen as a test to overcome. The failure is when you do not overcome and instead embrace the sin.[/QUOTE] That shit didn't turn up until the new testament and was only put in place because they couldn't go around executing people in foreign countries while trying to spread Christianity Sins are still considered evil and result in excommunication if the person doesn't repent.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47906962]Sins are still considered evil and result in excommunication if the person doesn't repent.[/QUOTE] That is plain wrong, at least regarding Catholic Church. You cannot be excommunicated under any conditions as a simple believer, under literally any circumstances. You can literally go postal on an orphanage and swear by Satan seven times and even then priests are obliged to offer you confessionals and the current teachings (at least here, in Czech Republic, based on my own voluntary attendance of catholic education lessons) say god will still, even then, possibly forgive you for it all in the end, if you repent even in the very last second of your life (and possibly beyond).

[QUOTE=Lalelalala;47906897]So they need to overcome their homosexuality.. That's even worse.[/QUOTE] There's a lot of stuff that is missed or changes according to translation. What I was able to dig is that sin came from hebrew chatta’th and then goes to greek and becomes hamartia and finally goes to latin to become peccatu and it didn't meant to offend God, but rather to stray from a path.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47906892]Because if you hold a belief that being a homosexual is a choice (which the Christians do), then only one of the issues is something you are born with and one is a lifestyle choice the people can change if they wish. And again, "I think what you are doing is wrong" is something else than "I hate you people". You could also have somebody go either "I think obese people should work hard on losing weight" vs "I think we should push fat people into a spike pit using bulldozers", again, only one of these statements would end up with you likely getting punished. I am fairly sure that if your racism was something more akin to "I think that people of race A shouldn't have a democratic word in deciding matters of race B", a lot of places (probably not politics because in that environment, it's way too sensitive), nobody would really care enough to single you out for it.[/QUOTE] Just because their belief is protected under the guise of "Christianity" does not mean that this belief should be held in the same regard as science and general ethacility. Simply put, somebody should not be treated differently based on sexuality, gender, race, or any other aspects of their lives that they have absolutely no control over. Whilst some may say that they are simply expressing their freedom of religion, this becomes hate speech when you want to give less rights to one group over the other. These beliefs are not harmless, and have caused a multitude of suicides, especially in more vulnerable groups. To address your analogy of obese people, the former statement is absolutely correct as it is something that they are in control of, and can negatively impact their lives. If you were to say "I think gay people should work hard on not being gay" you are asking them to change something that they have no control over whatsoever - an aspect of their lives that also has absolutely no negative impact on health other than the mental issues of being discriminated against and ostracized from large parts of society. These religious views are archaic and harmful, and should not be protected just because they have been held for thousands of years, and have continued to creep their way in to the majority of countries' political systems.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47906962]That shit didn't turn up until the new testament and was only put in place because they couldn't go around executing people in foreign countries while trying to spread Christianity[/QUOTE] You're aware that the old testament is Hebrew aren't you? They're two different doctrines from different people.

[QUOTE=Noss;47907026]Just because their belief is protected under the guise of "Christianity" does not mean that this belief should be held in the same regard as science and general ethacility. Simply put, somebody should not be treated differently based on sexuality, gender, race, or any other aspects of their lives that they have absolutely no control over. Whilst some may say that they are simply expressing their freedom of religion, this becomes hate speech when you want to give less rights to one group over the other. These beliefs are not harmless, and have caused a multitude of suicides, especially in more vulnerable groups. To address your analogy of obese people, the former statement is absolutely correct as it is something that they are in control of, and can negatively impact their lives. If you were to say "I think gay people should work hard on not being gay" you are asking them to change something that they have no control over whatsoever - an aspect of their lives that also has absolutely no negative impact on health other than the mental issues of being discriminated against and ostracized from large parts of society. These religious views are archaic and harmful, and should not be protected just because they have been held for thousands of years, and have continued to creep their way in to the majority of countries' political systems.[/QUOTE] The issue is that according to the text in the OP, this wasn't hate speech because it wasn't speech at all, it was an answer to a question. That moves this from the area of hate speech to the area of thought crime. You should never, ever be punishable for what you [I]think[/I] if it doesn't influence your actions. [I]Spreading[/I] these thoughts publicly is another matter, as even just spreading words can be painful and harm others, but this is not the case. You should be able to hold any beliefs and thoughts, and you shouldn't ever have to lie to keep yourself safe. That is, in my eyes, basic axioms of human rights.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47906990]That is plain wrong, at least regarding Catholic Church. You cannot be excommunicated under any conditions as a simple believer, under literally any circumstances. You can literally go postal on an orphanage and swear by Satan seven times and even then priests are obliged to offer you confessionals and the current teachings (at least here, in Czech Republic, based on my own voluntary attendance of catholic education lessons) say god will still, even then, possibly forgive you for it all in the end, if you repent even in the very last second of your life (and possibly beyond).[/QUOTE] The act itself is still considered evil, if you don't repent for being gay you're considered evil. [editline]8th June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Ragekipz;47907044]You're aware that the old testament is Hebrew aren't you? They're two different doctrines from different people.[/QUOTE] The new testament was written by Jews built on top of the old testament. They're not separate things they're supposed to complement each other.