Food riots in Venezuela, governor says "No one is starving" - Polidicks

[img]http://img.huffingtonpost.com//asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/55bcf2301700002500566476.jpeg[/img] [i]Members of national guard patrol a supermarket in Caracas[/i] [quote]A man was killed and dozens were arrested Friday as a mob looted a supermarket and other shops in an industrial Venezuelan city, Bolivar state authorities said. In announcing the looting, Gov. Francisco Rangel pushed back against opponents of Venezuela's socialist government who attributed the unrest to widespread scarcities of basic goods across the oil-rich nation. He said more than two dozen people were arrested in connection with the looting in the southeastern city of Ciudad Guyana and added that there was no excuse for the behavior. "No one is starving," he said. Rangel also suggested to the television station Globovision that the looting might have been driven by people with "political motives." Tensions are running high in Venezuela as the country gears up for December legislative elections. Local newspaper Correo del Caroni said the commotion, which centered on four stores, caused merchants to temporarily shutter nearby businesses in fear they might be attacked, too.[/quote] [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/looting-venezuela-shortages_55bcec4de4b0d4f33a0309a3[/url] It looks like things are getting real ugly in Venezuela. Beer stocks have already run dry recently in addition to things such as condoms, diapers, dairy, meats, toilet paper, soaps, shampoos, etc. There's a chance that the inept and corrupt government will be thrown out of power at the elections, but that will be in December after a few more months of consistent misery and increasing poverty.

This is basically what communist poland would have be covered like if the internet existed back in the day, and the government didn't censor everything.

Well, guess who's getting humanitarian aid once the government has been turned into St Louis style barbecue?

Somewhat amusing....soldiers wearing camouflage, and then high visibility vests over that...

[I]Hoorah for Socialism![/I]

The ultimate result of communism, no surprise here really.

I Hope nobody puts Arnold Schwarzenegger in a gunship because he has a history of being framed for food riot problems... Truely sad that the government is so def blind and stupid to the problem that their great Chavez started

Can someone briefly explain what the Chavez government did to so awfully wreck the economy?

[QUOTE=BusterBluth;48356234]Can someone briefly explain what the Chavez government did to so awfully wreck the economy?[/QUOTE] go against every basic proven economic theory out there

[QUOTE=BusterBluth;48356234]Can someone briefly explain what the Chavez government did to so awfully wreck the economy?[/QUOTE] Corruption and incompetence mostly. Chavez nationalized a lot of assets belonging to foreign companies, specifically oil assets which is a really good way to scare away foreign investors when you basically steal their shit. Price controls didn't help either, companies don't like being told to sell their wares for less than what it cost to make them generally. Venezuela is also a hugely oil rich country and when the price of oil was above $100 Chavez had plenty of money to spread around. Money to fund social welfare programs, money for propaganda and most importantly money for himself and his friends. Venezuela like many, many other petro-states always fail to diversify their economy in the good times. So all the money that could have been used to develop other national industries was wasted. Now oil looking to remain at sub-$50 a barrel, an a Venezuelan economy dependent on $100+ a barrel with no other industries to rely on is staring down a collapse and all the other horrible things that come along with that.

[QUOTE=BusterBluth;48356234]Can someone briefly explain what the Chavez government did to so awfully wreck the economy?[/QUOTE] the Venezuelan government's attempt to remove markets by regulating prices has failed completely as it decimated supply by not letting it increase to match the demand, and also it created a black market of regulated products sold clandestinely by resellers which also increases discomfort in the population as it makes it seem like these products could be sold at a higher prices without controls and they wouldn't vanish from the supermarket shelves (which is actually true). Chavez' attempt to reduce poverty implied a reckless disregard of the established notion of markets, prices are not set arbritrarily, they obey a balance between what the consumer is willing to pay for them and what the provider is willing to gain for that sale. Through tight economic controls the prices of almost every product are kept artificially low, at the cost of, of course, being utterly unable to increase the supply as the products are being always sold at a loss, and two, limiting the demand artificially by rationing these products and only allowing people to take limited amounts of each product per week (Which further increases supply deficiencies as most people will try to stockpile on these products). Mind you, by products I mean a WHOLE load of stuff, from food, to cars, to US dollars, the government has a direct hand in the sale of nearly everything and it has thus far caused everything to go awry. So, why don't they remove the economic controls? Because the people who have been kept artificially well will suffer, the millions of people who are somehow able to live while making less than 10 dollars a month won't be able to afford anything as the prices will try to catch up to inflation once they are released from these controls. So effectively, the situation is hopeless, and there is no way to save the economy without harming millions of people. There will be no peaceful resolution to the Venezuelan crisis and you have corruption and socialism to blame for that.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;48356679]the Venezuelan government's attempt to remove markets by regulating prices has failed completely as it decimated supply by not letting it increase to match the demand, and also it created a black market of regulated products sold clandestinely by resellers which also increases discomfort in the population as it makes it seem like these products could be sold at a higher prices without controls and they wouldn't vanish from the supermarket shelves (which is actually true). Chavez' attempt to reduce poverty implied a reckless disregard of the established notion of markets, prices are not set arbritrarily, they obey a balance between what the consumer is willing to pay for them and what the provider is willing to gain for that sale. Through tight economic controls the prices of almost every product are kept artificially low, at the cost of, of course, being utterly unable to increase the supply as the products are being always sold at a loss, and two, limiting the demand artificially by rationing these products and only allowing people to take limited amounts of each product per week (Which further increases supply deficiencies as most people will try to stockpile on these products). Mind you, by products I mean a WHOLE load of stuff, from food, to cars, to US dollars, the government has a direct hand in the sale of nearly everything and it has thus far caused everything to go awry. So, why don't they remove the economic controls? Because the people who have been kept artificially well will suffer, the millions of people who are somehow able to live while making less than 10 dollars a month won't be able to afford anything as the prices will try to catch up to inflation once they are released from these controls. So effectively, the situation is hopeless, and there is no way to save the economy without harming millions of people. There will be no peaceful resolution to the Venezuelan crisis and you have corruption and socialism to blame for that.[/QUOTE] How has this rationing affected the daily life of an average Venezuelan? Are people actually able to find and get what they need or is it just one amenity after another lost forever?

Socialism is like a square peg, and currently we've got a round, somewhat stretchy hole. If you slowly let the hole stretch (nationalising some industries, redistributing money in small ways), I'm sure it would be possible. But you can't just ram the square peg in or the hole won't let it in and then everything will be broken and you'll cry.

[QUOTE=G3rman;48357113]How has this rationing affected the daily life of an average Venezuelan? Are people actually able to find and get what they need or is it just one amenity after another lost forever?[/QUOTE] People are fighting over basic stuff...so yeah, pretty rad. There are a lot of videos in youtube showing quarrels inside supermarkets.

[QUOTE=Jamsponge;48357191]Socialism is like a square peg, and currently we've got a round, somewhat stretchy hole. If you slowly let the hole stretch (nationalising some industries, redistributing money in small ways), I'm sure it would be possible.[/QUOTE] Not really. You can only stretch it so far. It's not a question of how you do socialism, it's just that fundamentally it's not really possible to do in the first place. Venezuela could quite capably have ensured both economic growth and development while doing its bit to cut poverty, improve healthcare, etc. But for some reason Venezuela decided that it was possible to have a big social welfare system and generous public benefits and resources while also destroying the economy at the same time. You can have both, but you need to let markets and shit operate freely.

It's amazing that the situation has remained the same there for so long. I was almost expecting a coup by business-backed generals but apparently Maduro has all the generals in his pocket due to the corrupt way things work there. But this can't last forever. Something's gotta give.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;48356679]the Venezuelan government's attempt to remove markets by regulating prices has failed completely as it decimated supply by not letting it increase to match the demand, and also it created a black market of regulated products sold clandestinely by resellers which also increases discomfort in the population as it makes it seem like these products could be sold at a higher prices without controls and they wouldn't vanish from the supermarket shelves (which is actually true). Chavez' attempt to reduce poverty implied a reckless disregard of the established notion of markets, prices are not set arbritrarily, they obey a balance between what the consumer is willing to pay for them and what the provider is willing to gain for that sale. Through tight economic controls the prices of almost every product are kept artificially low, at the cost of, of course, being utterly unable to increase the supply as the products are being always sold at a loss, and two, limiting the demand artificially by rationing these products and only allowing people to take limited amounts of each product per week (Which further increases supply deficiencies as most people will try to stockpile on these products). Mind you, by products I mean a WHOLE load of stuff, from food, to cars, to US dollars, the government has a direct hand in the sale of nearly everything and it has thus far caused everything to go awry. So, why don't they remove the economic controls? Because the people who have been kept artificially well will suffer, the millions of people who are somehow able to live while making less than 10 dollars a month won't be able to afford anything as the prices will try to catch up to inflation once they are released from these controls. So effectively, the situation is hopeless, and there is no way to save the economy without harming millions of people. There will be no peaceful resolution to the Venezuelan crisis and you have corruption and socialism to blame for that.[/QUOTE] Exactly why USSR got fucked. Some people just never learn.

[QUOTE=G3rman;48357113]How has this rationing affected the daily life of an average Venezuelan? Are people actually able to find and get what they need or is it just one amenity after another lost forever?[/QUOTE] The way it works is basically, you have to go to the supermarket at a specific day of the week that is determined by the last number of your national ID number, so like, 1 goes Monday, 2-3 goes Tuesday, 4-5 goes Wednesday and so on. You grab the maximum allowed amount of rationed items, and when you check out you have to provide your fingerprints and your national ID card in order to be able to take the products. The end result has been that poor people have to miss work in order to be able to stand in the huge lines outside of supermarkets on whichever day they've been assigned to, so people are effectively losing money as that is one full day they cannot work on. Everyone who is better off buys it from resellers in a really bizarre underground market. Last time I got chicken it was off some lady that lives a couple of blocks up, I had to buy 10 kilos off her, and she delivered them at my house at night in a plastic bag. My mother literally spends all day finding contacts and stockpiling on food, because we can never know when the next thing is going to disappear. Half of my paycheck goes to my mother so she can keep finding stuff. But even then there are circumstances where you just can't get the product at all. I haven't seen flour in a long while, or sugar. I suppose there are resellers because there are bakeries in the country still operating, but I haven't seen it in supermarkets. I have NO idea how somebody who makes minimum wage is managing to live under these circumstances, they must have handouts from the government. The quality of life in the country is horrible, though, in general. Food, water and electricity shortages, triple digit inflation (to put it in perspective, my salary just got doubled, and I'm still making less than what I was earning in January), currency controls so severe that there is no chance in hell anybody can travel abroad if they plan to come back, everything that isn't regulated is so expensive it can't be bought, rampant corruption, rampant crime. I've never lived a situation this bad since the months leading to the coup.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;48357558]The way it works is basically, you have to go to the supermarket at a specific day of the week that is determined by the last number of your national ID number, so like, 1 goes Monday, 2-3 goes Tuesday, 4-5 goes Wednesday and so on. You grab the maximum allowed amount of rationed items, and when you check out you have to provide your fingerprints and your national ID card in order to be able to take the products. The end result has been that poor people have to miss work in order to be able to stand in the huge lines outside of supermarkets on whichever day they've been assigned to, so people are effectively losing money as that is one full day they cannot work on. Everyone who is better off buys it from resellers in a really bizarre underground market. Last time I got chicken it was off some lady that lives a couple of blocks up, I had to buy 10 kilos off her, and she delivered them at my house at night in a plastic bag. My mother literally spends all day finding contacts and stockpiling on food, because we can never know when the next thing is going to disappear. Half of my paycheck goes to my mother so she can keep finding stuff. But even then there are circumstances where you just can't get the product at all. I haven't seen flour in a long while, or sugar. I suppose there are resellers because there are bakeries in the country still operating, but I haven't seen it in supermarkets. I have NO idea how somebody who makes minimum wage is managing to live under these circumstances, they must have handouts from the government. The quality of life in the country is horrible, though, in general. Food, water and electricity shortages, triple digit inflation (to put it in perspective, my salary just got doubled, and I'm still making less than what I was earning in January), currency controls so severe that there is no chance in hell anybody can travel abroad if they plan to come back, everything that isn't regulated is so expensive it can't be bought, rampant corruption, rampant crime. I've never lived a situation this bad since the months leading to the coup.[/QUOTE] The coup against Chavez you mean? Yeah, I'd say the situation is a whole lot worse now than then.

Who is the government using as a scapegoat for all this? Capitalist?

[QUOTE=BusterBluth;48357873]Who is the government using as a scapegoat for all this? Capitalist?[/QUOTE] And the opposition, which has apparently been plotting along with foreign imperialist agents against the glorious revolution every day since 1999

[QUOTE=BusterBluth;48357873]Who is the government using as a scapegoat for all this? Capitalist?[/QUOTE] The U.S. and the "West" in general. Just like before.

[QUOTE=T553412;48357926]And the opposition, which has apparently been plotting along with foreign imperialist agents against the glorious revolution every day since 1999[/QUOTE] And the opposition is divided as fuck. The largest opposition party has 15 members of the assembly. The ruling party has 96.

[QUOTE=BusterBluth;48357873]Who is the government using as a scapegoat for all this? Capitalist?[/QUOTE] :conspiratard:

[QUOTE=Smooth Jazz;48358219]And the opposition is divided as fuck. The largest opposition party has 15 members of the assembly. The ruling party has 96.[/QUOTE] The opposition is a single block though. the opposition itself is not as divided as one may think, we just don't have any real presidential contenders since it's super hard to be up against the millions in campaign funds that the PSUV can put out, and well, you're up against a populist government. The sole reason why the opposition has less members in the National Assembly is due to gerrymandering.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;48358690]The opposition is a single block though. the opposition itself is not as divided as one may think, we just don't have any real presidential contenders since it's super hard to be up against the millions in campaign funds that the PSUV can put out, and well, you're up against a populist government. The sole reason why the opposition has less members in the National Assembly is due to gerrymandering.[/QUOTE] Looking at the Wikipedia page, it looks like the opposition almost beat Maduro in the last election. Do you expect a victory in 2018 in the next election? Surely even a populist government starts looking pretty awful with the current situation. Also, was my point that the military are in Maduro's pocket so deep that they will never have a coup correct?

The military can think of ways of still getting their cut without Maduro. It's inconvenient for them to have such an inept leader as they will eventually have nothing to steal from. It's really a godsend for us that the oil price plummeted because otherwise the populist government can sustain itself forever. There will not be an election, I'm almost absolutely certain Maduro will be impeached in 2016.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;48360180]The military can think of ways of still getting their cut without Maduro. It's inconvenient for them to have such an inept leader as they will eventually have nothing to steal from. It's really a godsend for us that the oil price plummeted because otherwise the populist government can sustain itself forever. There will not be an election, I'm almost absolutely certain Maduro will be impeached in 2016.[/QUOTE] What is the Vice President like? I also I think I read somewhere that the president of the Assembly is not a Maduro ally at all.

The Vice President is there solely because of political favors, he married one of Chavez' daughters. Before that he was running a ministry that was created solely for him. There are rumors that Diosdado Cabello (The president of the National Assembly, and also a very public figure, well known for being Chavez' right hand man and one of the richest and most powerful men in the country) doesn't like Maduro but they are kind of unproven. The lack of official opposition media networks has resulted in a sharp decrease of the quality of information coming from inside sources. What we get mostly is just rumors, and things that are deducted from the official, censored, communications.

Big Bang, I heard that conflicting reports about whenever or not there was beer now that major breweries are shutting down due to supply shortages. What do you think it'll be like over the next few weeks?