Teen Dead In Officer Involved Shooting - Jesus, this was close - Polidicks

[URL="http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/virginia/2014/05/24/va-deputies-respond-to-fatal-officer-involved-shooting/9544497/"]http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/virginia/2014/05/24/va-deputies-respond-to-fatal-officer-involved-shooting/9544497/[/URL] [QUOTE]According to authorities, the call to police was for seeking help with a 17-year-old teenager threatening suicide. An officer arrived at the scene and went up to the teenager, who was armed with a knife and lunged at the officer, authorities said. The teenager was shot subsequently shot.[/QUOTE] It amazes me what the heck can happen in my small town. this was around 30 steps from my doorstep. More than likely, I knew the kid. Once I learn his name, I'll search my high school yearbook.

"They lunged and I had to shoot them" seems like an awfully common excuse for police shootings. It's the cop's word against a dead person, so who knows what actually happens, but sometimes it seems like the world has an awful lot of people willing to charge a gun-wielding cop armed with a knife or nothing at all. Does that police department not have a mental health responder for, I don't know, [I]exactly that scenario!?[/I] Imagine how the parents feel. They call the cops specifically because they want them to save their child's life, and instead a cop shows up and murders their child right in front of them. If a family member of mine was barricaded in a room and threatening to kill themselves, I don't think I would call the cops. I'll take my fucking chances handling the situation myself before I let some gun-toting cowboy with an itchy trigger finger come in my house.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44901360]"They lunged and I had to shoot them" seems like an awfully common excuse for police shootings. It's the cop's word against a dead person, so who knows what actually happens, but sometimes it seems like the world has an awful lot of people willing to charge a gun-wielding cop armed with a knife or nothing at all. Does that police department not have a mental health responder for, I don't know, [I]exactly that scenario!?[/I] Imagine how the parents feel. They call the cops specifically because they want them to save their child's life, and instead a cop shows up and murders their child right in front of them. If a family member of mine was barricaded in a room and threatening to kill themselves, I don't think I would call the cops. I'll take my fucking chances handling the situation myself before I let some gun-toting cowboy with an itchy trigger finger come in my house.[/QUOTE] Suicide by cop. If a person is too afraid to kill themselves, they may do it with an officer because they know the officer will fire.

[QUOTE=Chernobyl426;44901377]Suicide by cop. If a person is too afraid to kill themselves, they may do it with an officer because they know the officer will fire.[/QUOTE] Well, maybe officers shouldn't be in the business of enabling suicide attempts. I just don't get why "person threatening suicide" calls are responded to by regular officers with guns drawn and ready to use them. I don't see why it should be regular cops and not specifically-trained mental health professionals, and I don't see why the gun should ever leave the holster for anything less than a suspect armed with a gun. Give me all the dumb ratings you want, but plenty of other countries seem to address the same problems as we do without using lethal force anywhere near as often. Something is clearly wrong with police procedures in the US for dealing with this kind of thing.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44901413]Well, maybe officers shouldn't be in the business of enabling suicide attempts. I just don't get why "person threatening suicide" calls are responded to by regular officers with guns drawn and ready to use them. I don't see why it should be regular cops and not specifically-trained mental health professionals, and I don't see why the gun should ever leave the holster for anything less than a suspect armed with a gun. Give me all the dumb ratings you want, but plenty of other countries seem to address the same problems as we do without using lethal force anywhere near as often. Something is clearly wrong with police procedures in the US for dealing with this kind of thing.[/QUOTE] There is no way you could get trained health professionals to an incident in under 5minutes. That's fucking ridiculous. Police officers will always be first on the scene.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44901413]I just don't get why "person threatening suicide" calls are responded to by regular officers with guns drawn and ready to use them. I don't see why it should be regular cops and not specifically-trained mental health professionals, and I don't see why the gun should ever leave the holster for anything less than a suspect armed with a gun.[/QUOTE] And what if they attack the specially-trained mental health professionals? Should they shoot him in the knee instead?

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44901413]Well, maybe officers shouldn't be in the business of enabling suicide attempts. I just don't get why "person threatening suicide" calls are responded to by regular officers with guns drawn and ready to use them. I don't see why it should be regular cops and not specifically-trained mental health professionals, and I don't see why the gun should ever leave the holster for anything less than a suspect armed with a gun. Give me all the dumb ratings you want, but plenty of other countries seem to address the same problems as we do without using lethal force anywhere near as often. Something is clearly wrong with police procedures in the US for dealing with this kind of thing.[/QUOTE] Not all department can afford to have the specially trained people on call for this sort of thing. Even if they do have a trained officer if someone is threatening suicide you need to have someone there asap to asses the situation and to buy time for the trained personnel to arrive. In a perfect world all of these things would always be in place, but this world is far from perfect and sometimes you have to work with what's available at the time. Sending a cop in right away was more than likely the only option at the time, and that is a better option than having the office wait outside for trained persons while the individual kills themselves.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44901413]Well, maybe officers shouldn't be in the business of enabling suicide attempts. I just don't get why "person threatening suicide" calls are responded to by regular officers with guns drawn and ready to use them. I don't see why it should be regular cops and not specifically-trained mental health professionals, and I don't see why the gun should ever leave the holster for anything less than a suspect armed with a gun. Give me all the dumb ratings you want, but plenty of other countries seem to address the same problems as we do without using lethal force anywhere near as often. Something is clearly wrong with police procedures in the US for dealing with this kind of thing.[/QUOTE] Guy wanted to die, he died. Cops shouldn't risk their fucking neck because someone wants to play "suicide by cop". Also there are many calls that end up being ambushes - which are often by people who want take as many lives as they can before going. Super easy to make assumptions when you're not there on scene.

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;44901451]And what if they attack the specially-trained mental health professionals? Should they shoot him in the knee instead?[/QUOTE] Cops have a laundry list of nonlethal options available, more than at any time in history. I can't fathom why they are apparently still trained to forgo all of those options and use lethal force first. Also, I'm not saying the only person on scene should be a civilian shrink from a local hospital. It should obviously be a police officer, but one with very specific training whose only job is dealing with situations involving mentally unstable people. Someone that can recognize and properly handle the mentally ill, but not be completely vulnerable if something bad happens. My general point is that the solution to people having a mental health crisis is not to [I]shoot them on the spot.[/I] Especially not 17-year-olds, for fuck's sake.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44901413]Well, maybe officers shouldn't be in the business of enabling suicide attempts. I just don't get why "person threatening suicide" calls are responded to by regular officers with guns drawn and ready to use them. I don't see why it should be regular cops and not specifically-trained mental health professionals, and I don't see why the gun should ever leave the holster for anything less than a suspect armed with a gun. Give me all the dumb ratings you want, but plenty of other countries seem to address the same problems as we do without using lethal force anywhere near as often. Something is clearly wrong with police procedures in the US for dealing with this kind of thing.[/QUOTE] You have to remember that people threatening suicide are clearly mentally unstable and can be highly unpredictable. Cops are trained in what to do, many cops have been able to talk people down from suicide. But then you have to realize that the person dealing with the suicidal person also has to be able to respond is such a way to provide the safety to himself and those around the person, which is the ultimate job of the police officer. This is why he has to have his hand on his gun, he is approaching an armed mentally unstable individual. He could attack anyone. In this instance, he attacked the officer, so the officer was forced to respond.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44901498]Cops have a laundry list of nonlethal options available, more than at any time in history. I can't fathom why they are apparently still trained to forgo all of those options and use lethal force first. Also, I'm not saying the only person on scene should be a civilian shrink from a local hospital. It should obviously be a police officer, but one with very specific training whose only job is dealing with situations involving mentally unstable people. Someone that can recognize and properly handle the mentally ill, but not be completely vulnerable if something bad happens. My general point is that the solution to people having a mental health crisis is not to [I]shoot them on the spot.[/I] Especially not 17-year-olds, for fuck's sake.[/QUOTE] Because as soon as police see a mentally unstable person, their first reaction is to shoot them regardless of the situation. If only they had done so to prevent the other shooting today.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44901498]Cops have a laundry list of nonlethal options available, more than at any time in history. I can't fathom why they are apparently still trained to forgo all of those options and use lethal force first. [/QUOTE] all he had to do was shoot him in the leg

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44901413] Give me all the dumb ratings you want, but plenty of other countries seem to address the same problems as we do without using lethal force anywhere near as often. Something is clearly wrong with police procedures in the US for dealing with this kind of thing.[/QUOTE] It's almost like other countries aren't the same as the US and have wildly different cultures and government agencies than the US. In other countries, people have readily available solutions to multitudes of mental healthcare that you can't get in the US. [QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44901498]Cops have a laundry list of nonlethal options available, more than at any time in history. I can't fathom why they are apparently still trained to forgo all of those options and use lethal force first. Also, I'm not saying the only person on scene should be a civilian shrink from a local hospital. It should obviously be a police officer, but one with very specific training whose only job is dealing with situations involving mentally unstable people. Someone that can recognize and properly handle the mentally ill, but not be completely vulnerable if something bad happens. My general point is that the solution to people having a mental health crisis is not to [I]shoot them on the spot.[/I] Especially not 17-year-olds, for fuck's sake.[/QUOTE] Lethal force is matched with lethal force, anything less puts the officer at risk.

Maybe the officer shouldn't have, as the article said, "approached" someone who was wielding a knife and, in doing so, helped escalate a situation to violence?

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44901360]"They lunged and I had to shoot them" seems like an awfully common excuse for police shootings. It's the cop's word against a dead person, so who knows what actually happens, but sometimes it seems like the world has an awful lot of people willing to charge a gun-wielding cop armed with a knife or nothing at all. Does that police department not have a mental health responder for, I don't know, [I]exactly that scenario!?[/I] Imagine how the parents feel. They call the cops specifically because they want them to save their child's life, and instead a cop shows up and murders their child right in front of them. If a family member of mine was barricaded in a room and threatening to kill themselves, I don't think I would call the cops. I'll take my fucking chances handling the situation myself before I let some gun-toting cowboy with an itchy trigger finger come in my house.[/QUOTE] The problem here is that the officer had a right to shoot the kid because he was about to get stabbed by a possibly trained person

Police violence is a huge problem but christ, let them protect themselves.

[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;44901535] Lethal force is matched with lethal force, anything less puts the officer at risk.[/QUOTE] This is literally not true though, cops use less-lethal weapons on armed suspects all the time.

[QUOTE=Valdor;44901525]all he had to do was shoot him in the leg[/QUOTE] Or pepper spray him, or taze him, or shoot him in the gut with a beanbag round, or just smack him in the head with a baton. A bullet should be the last resort, not the first. At least for anyone not armed with a firearm of their own. Maybe someone can explain it better, but I don't know why stuff like that isn't a LOT more widely used. Why do cops still behave as if there is no setting between "zero" and "lethal"? Do they not just beat people with clubs anymore?

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44901545]Police violence is a huge problem but christ, let them protect themselves.[/QUOTE] He wouldn't have had to protect himself if he hadn't walked right up to someone who was armed. The police should have kept their distance and tried to talk him down.

[QUOTE=Valdor;44901525]all he had to do was shoot him in the leg[/QUOTE] Why do people even still post this in every single lethal shooting thread?

[QUOTE=Billy-Bobfred;44901544]The problem here is that the officer had a right to shoot the kid because he was about to get stabbed by a possibly trained person[/QUOTE] Right, because the suicidal 17-year-old is a trained killer. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Egon Spengler;44901563]Why do people even still post this in every single lethal shooting thread?[/QUOTE] I interpreted his post as making fun of Used Car Salesman saying to use nonlethal methods

For all we know, the teenager could have been or not have been brandishing his knife. For all we know, he could have concealed it at the very last moment before he revealed it to the officer at the very last moment the officer closed the distance to speak with the teenager. [QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44901553]Or pepper spray him, or taze him, or shoot him in the gut with a beanbag round, or just smack him in the head with a baton. A bullet should be the last resort, not the first. At least for anyone not armed with a firearm of their own. Maybe someone can explain it better, but I don't know why stuff like that isn't a LOT more widely used. Why do cops still behave as if there is no setting between "zero" and "lethal"? Do they not just beat people with clubs anymore?[/QUOTE] Because when somebody's life is suddenly found to be in immediate danger with a knife-wielding teen closing the distance, the officer isn't just going to try to apprehend the attacking suspect with his non-lethal weapons. They're going for the fastest way to make sure the suspect goes down. Intent on apprehending the suspect goes out the window when they're displaying every posture that signals their intent to kill you.

[QUOTE=Valdor;44901525]all he had to do was shoot him in the leg[/QUOTE] I can't tell if you're trolling our not, but in any event here's a little story. I've worked armed security for quite some time now, and I've found myself in a lot of interesting and dangerous situations. For non lethal I carry a baton and mace. From experience I go for my baton, because the baton if used correctly forces an involuntary body movement where as the mace is rather hit or miss as to whether it will hit the person and if it will take effect in time to actually affect the outcome of the situation(not to mention you will always get hit with your own spray to varying degrees). With that being said I've rarely had the time to pull these since situations unfold very fast. Out if all the people I've arrested and situations I've found myself in I've only pulled my firearm once. I'll tell you from experience that when you're being dragged by a SUV and the only ways out are blocked by a moving tire and an oncoming car the thoughts in your head aren't "I'll just shoot the tire" or "I'll mace the driver". You think what is going to stop the situation instantly, and 9 times out of 10 when the situation involves your life your going to pull that gun

There is literally no act of police violence that people on this forum won't try to justify. Even when a SWAT team unloads a dozen rounds into a mentally ill homeless man standing out in an open field someone will come up with an excuse and ignore every single misstep that leads up to the shooting/fatal tasering of a person/small dog. Apparently all someone needs to say is "he lunged at me" and all circumstances and previous errors in judgement are made irrelevant.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;44901590]There is literally no act of police violence that people on this forum won't try to justify. Even when a SWAT team unloads a dozen rounds into a mentally ill homeless man standing out in an open field someone will come up with an excuse and ignore every single misstep that leads up to the point of a shooting/fatal tasering of a person/small dog.[/QUOTE] This is a one-on-one encounter between an officer and a teenager that attempted to attack the officer with a knife. Nobody knows if it's by surprise or if the officer noticed the weapon in hand. You're just playing armchair forensics and calling out every police action an act of murder even if it was a blatant case of defense on the officer's behalf.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;44901590]There is literally no act of police violence that people on this forum won't try to justify. Even when a SWAT team unloads a dozen rounds into a mentally ill homeless man standing out in an open field someone will come up with an excuse and ignore every single misstep that leads up to the point of a shooting/fatal tasering of a person/small dog.[/QUOTE] The unconditional police worship does get on my nerves. There is nothing that justifies shooting a teenager that isn't actively shooting back. But from the way some people here talk, there is nothing that justifies [I]not[/I] shooting, nor any reason to ask questions.

[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;44901609]This is a one-on-one encounter between an officer and a teenager that attempted to attack the officer with a knife. Nobody knows if it's by surprise or if the officer noticed the weapon in hand.[/QUOTE] That's complete conjecture on your part. We're given no reason to believe that the knife was concealed. If somebody has a knife, the #1 thing an officer should do is [i]keep their distance[/i]. Walking up to someone with a knife is asking for someone to get hurt.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44901610]The unconditional police worship does get on my nerves. There is nothing that justifies shooting a teenager that isn't actively shooting back. But from the way some people here talk, there is nothing that justifies [I]not[/I] shooting, nor any reason to ask questions.[/QUOTE] A person with a knife is much more dangerous than a person with a gun unless they are more than 21 feet apart. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo[/media]

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;44901626]A person with a knife is much more dangerous than a person with a gun unless they are more than 21 feet apart.[/QUOTE] I doubt this 17 year old was trained in youtube knife-kata but even if he was then maybe they should have stayed 21 feet apart or something? As far as I know the job of an officer is to keep the peace. What's the point of having police if all they do is charge at people who aren't threatening to hurt anybody else and turn suicide threats into homicides?