Leaked budget from government of Islamic State shows how it raises revenue
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[quote]While it's well known that the Islamic State (IS) has developed many of the institutions that define other states — schools, police, professional media, a standing army — exactly how IS has paid for these institutions has often been a matter of blind speculation.
Now, however, newly leaked documents appear to give unprecedented insight into the group's finances. Originating in the IS-run Syrian province of Deir Ezzor, they indicate that IS doesn't tax the people living under its rule so much as it steals from them in order to pay its fighters' salaries and other operating costs.
The documents, which detail expenses and income sources in the province between December 23, 2014 and January 22, 2015, was made public by Aymenn al-Tamimi, a fellow at the UK Middle East Forum who is currently based somewhere on the Syrian border. It's the first-ever account of IS finances to be made public.[/quote]
[quote]For the past few months, Mecham has been working to quantify IS "state-capacity," a term political scientists use to describe the effective functioning of government institutions. [b]Mecham estimates that IS is the 16th most failed state in the world.[/b]
"It's ahead of more than a dozen states that actually sit at the UN," he said. "But still, they aren't really doing that well."[/quote]
[url]https://news.vice.com/article/a-leaked-budget-may-finally-show-how-the-islamic-state-makes-its-money[/url]
Say what you want but it's impressive how IS rose from nothing into something that is kinda being recognized as a government now.
they grow up so fast ^_^
[QUOTE] [B]Mecham estimates that IS is the 16th most failed state in the world.[/B]
"It's ahead of more than a dozen states that actually sit at the UN," he said. "But still, they aren't really doing that well."[/QUOTE]
That's kind of depressing.
I like how it talks about taxation as separate from theft
[QUOTE]For the past few months, Mecham has been working to quantify IS "state-capacity," a term political scientists use to describe the effective functioning of government institutions. Mecham estimates that IS is the 16th most failed state in the world.
"It's ahead of more than a dozen states that actually sit at the UN," he said. "But still, they aren't really doing that well."[/QUOTE]
To put that into perspective, over the past couple years ISIL has become a more functional country than Nigeria, Pakistan, Guinea and Cote d'Ivoire, despite being at war with basically all of its neighbors and most of NATO. And its own people
At that rate of improvement, they could surpass Ethiopia, Egypt and North Korea in a few years :why:
[QUOTE=Conscript;48879053]I like how it talks about taxation as separate from theft[/QUOTE]
Oh so you are one of those people
[QUOTE=Freakie;48879049]That's kind of depressing.[/QUOTE]
Imagine living in a country shittier than IS.
These monkeys have a government? I figured they'd be too retarded to even realize the concept.
[QUOTE=Hyperbole;48879408]These monkeys have a government? I figured they'd be too retarded to even realize the concept.[/QUOTE]
Not a very good one, but all states fundamentally have a government of sorts. Except their focus is more on religious policing and punishing the infidels while waging war against their proclaimed enemies.
Underestimating what they're up to is the last thing people should be doing, as knowing what makes them tick will eventually help bring them down. Or at least shatter them as an organized group enough that they get driven back to guerilla warfare.
[QUOTE=Conscript;48879053]I like how it talks about taxation as separate from theft[/QUOTE]
You [I]could[/I] argue that taxation is a form of theft if you're an ultra-libertarian, but at least it is consistent and, for the most part, non-discriminatory.
It's the difference between having to give a set percentage of your income to the government, versus government gunmen coming to your door at random and demanding that you give a completely arbitrary amount of money or possessions under threat of death.
With taxation, the gunmen (police) part only comes around if you don't pay the taxes, and the amount you have to pay or time spend in jail is set by guidelines and laws.
[QUOTE=Hyperbole;48879408]These monkeys have a government? I figured they'd be too retarded to even realize the concept.[/QUOTE]
IS is very concerned with being seen as a proper government. Their English-language (and I presume, Arabic language) publications are basically all about explaining why they're a real legitimate caliphate, in both theological terms and practical terms.
They issue birth certificates, mint currency, collect garbage, maintain water supplies, etc. Under Islamic doctrine, they have to exert effective control over a territory to be a real Caliphate -- if they don't, all oaths declared in service of them are null and void. bin Laden, for example, could never declare himself Caliph -- the idea is just incoherent. This is what sets them apart from organizations like Al-Quaeda, who exist as decentralized cells across the whole world, and have specific political goals (e.g. American troops out of Saudi Arabia, Jews out of the Holy Land, etc) rather than apocalyptic holy war against everybody else.
[QUOTE=kurgan;48879535]IS is very concerned with being seen as a proper government. Their English-language (and I presume, Arabic language) publications are basically all about explaining why they're a real legitimate caliphate, in both theological terms and practical terms.
They issue birth certificates, mint currency, collect garbage, maintain water supplies, etc. Under Islamic doctrine, they have to exert effective control over a territory to be a real Caliphate -- if they don't, all oaths declared in service of them are null and void. bin Laden, for example, could never declare himself Caliph -- the idea is just incoherent. This is what sets them apart from organizations like Al-Quaeda, who exist as decentralized cells across the whole world, and have specific political goals (e.g. American troops out of Saudi Arabia, Jews out of the Holy Land, etc) rather than apocalyptic holy war against everybody else.[/QUOTE]
the theological terms are on shaky ground because they've already done a big religious no-no by modifying their holy book, which is basically an unpardonable sin, so that bit's already on shaky ground. They also enforce non Shari'a laws, which again puts them in a religious hole.
As for practical terms, supplies are horrendously expensive, they cant maintain water or power supplies properly across their power base, they harass even muslim civilians, they employ forced conscription, and much, much more - their armed forces are formed from a bunch of fanatics, indoctrinated individuals, and psychopaths and mercenaries who fight for them because the pay is good and they get to kill people.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48878874]Say what you want but it's impressive how IS rose from nothing into something that is kinda being recognized as a government now.[/QUOTE]
Not really impressive when they just resort to doing what every extreme government has ever done, having a functional government by having everyone feared into submission, it's nothing new, dictatorships for example have been shown to be pretty effective when it comes to quickly having a functional country.
If they had risen this fast without being general assholes then that would have been impressive.
[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;48879669]As for practical terms, supplies are horrendously expensive, they cant maintain water or power supplies properly across their power base, they harass even muslim civilians, they employ forced conscription, and much, much more - their armed forces are formed from a bunch of fanatics, indoctrinated individuals, and psychopaths and mercenaries who fight for them because the pay is good and they get to kill people.[/QUOTE]
It's actually working in their favour. Due to the fact that they are effectively the only thing that maintains a monopoly on force and many various resources, they are in a position of power unlike other groups.
With widespread unemployment, a breakdown in the economy, and a lack of opportunity a lot of ordinary Sunni Arabs are opting to join the IS army or the civil administration to get enough to live on. Due to the fact that the people joining up will have to make a lot of questionable decisions they will be more likely to support the regime (or at least oppose its destruction) because when and if Assad or the Shia Iraqi government came along there will be extremely harsh penalties for those very same people.
The longer IS maintains itself in these core territories, the more it begins to not just function like a state (as all of the various ad hoc institutions will be built up and stabilize), but it will also increasingly gain legitimacy in the eyes of its subjects, even if they don't like the regime.
I don't think Isis should be recognized as a state entity. It needs to be crushed and order to region restored.
[QUOTE=Saber15;48879465]You [I]could[/I] argue that taxation is a form of theft if you're an ultra-libertarian, but at least it is consistent and, for the most part, non-discriminatory.
It's the difference between having to give a set percentage of your income to the government, versus government gunmen coming to your door at random and demanding that you give a completely arbitrary amount of money or possessions under threat of death.
With taxation, the gunmen (police) part only comes around if you don't pay the taxes, and the amount you have to pay or time spend in jail is set by guidelines and laws.[/QUOTE]
If I break into your house every payday, steal 100 bucks from you and buy you a few things you need and pay your some of your insurance fees, is it not theft so long as keep the amount I steal each month consistent and don't beat you up so long as you don't hide your wallet from me? Consent to me is the key thing that stops taxation from being theft, even if that consent is given begrudgingly in exchange for remaining a member of the society you live in.
Not that this is the thread to have this kind of argument but it's very easy to see taxation as theft without being ultra-libertarians and not see it as theft without being ultra-liberal. Your example doesn't negate it being theft, it's just orderly theft.
[QUOTE=cqbcat;48879852]I don't think Isis should be recognized as a state entity. It needs to be crushed and order to region restored.[/QUOTE]
Being a country is no bar to being crushed. I mean, Nazi Germany was a country, but we absolutely crushed them. It might actually be easier to recognize them as a country - because then the entire UN can go up against them for their rampant Geneva violations.
[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;48879669]the theological terms are on shaky ground because they've already done a big religious no-no by modifying their holy book, which is basically an unpardonable sin, so that bit's already on shaky ground. They also enforce non Shari'a laws, which again puts them in a religious hole.[/QUOTE]
which bits have they modified? do you mean their greater willingness to excommunicate other muslims?
[QUOTE=Riutet;48879902]If I break into your house every payday, steal 100 bucks from you and buy you a few things you need and pay your some of your insurance fees, is it not theft so long as keep the amount I steal each month consistent and don't beat you up so long as you don't hide your wallet from me? Consent to me is the key thing that stops taxation from being theft, even if that consent is given begrudgingly in exchange for remaining a member of the society you live in.
Not that this is the thread to have this kind of argument but it's very easy to see taxation as theft without being ultra-libertarians and not see it as theft without being ultra-liberal. Your example doesn't negate it being theft, it's just orderly theft.[/QUOTE]
You give implicit consent when you use the roads and are protected by the cops mate. You're in an agreement with the state by being here, you can renounce you participation, but you would have to leave entirely. It is just a matter of agreeing to the laws of the land by living on that land.
[QUOTE=cqbcat;48879852]I don't think Isis should be recognized as a state entity. It needs to be crushed and order to region restored.[/QUOTE]
Who's going to restore order?
The Iraqi government set up in the aftermath of the American invasion failed to do exactly that, which is why IS now controls half of the country.
To answer the title- They make most of their money from Oil and whatever else from people skipping prayer
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48878874]Say what you want but it's impressive how IS rose from nothing into something that is kinda being recognized as a government now.[/QUOTE]
Kind of easy to declair yourself an army when you go into villages and steal everything including fighters
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48879955]Who's going to restore order?
The Iraqi government set up in the aftermath of the American invasion failed to do exactly that, which is why IS now controls half of the country.[/QUOTE]
there's reason to doubt that order can be restored at all as long as the sunni-shia divide continues. some kind of de-escalation agreement between iran and the gulf states would have to take place; otherwise, both parties will just vie to expand their spheres of influence, either directly or with proxies, at the expense of regional stability.
and this isn't even accounting for the fact that syria and iraq aren't really distinct entities anymore. any agreement on the future of iraq has to account for the future of syria.
arming and funding the ISF and the "moderate" opposition has failed, the kurds have only had limited success to the chagrin of regional allies, shifting support to assad would prove disastrous for US credibility both regionally and globally, and any direct ground intervention is bound to have the same problems we faced previously in iraq.
hence, i would argue that the best possible option for the united states would be to act multilaterally. the use of peacekeeping forces has been dismissed since the 1990s for its failures in somalia and bosnia, but one area of mixed but important success was in cambodia. despite a failure to disarm the khmer rouge, democratic elections were still held successfully, even with their meddling. if we can use russian involvement as a pretext to greater bilateral cooperation, then maybe we can cobble together an international force that learns from the lessons of previous operations and intervenes successfully.
of course, peacekeeping isn't exactly a useful option when dealing with the islamic state, but it [I]is[/I] useful in forestalling the conflict between assad and the opposition such that fighting the islamic state becomes an easier task.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;48879951]You give implicit consent when you use the roads and are protected by the cops mate. You're in an agreement with the state by being here, you can renounce you participation, but you would have to leave entirely. It is just a matter of agreeing to the laws of the land by living on that land.[/QUOTE]
Reread my post and you will see that I mentioned that you consent.
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