Ukraine is a fight for liberal democracy, right? Maybe not quite: at the heart of the protests is a - Polidicks

[quote] [url]http://www.thenation.com/article/178013/ukrainian-nationalism-heart-euromaidan[/url] [t]http://www.thenation.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/main_node_view_image/kiev_protest_rtr_img_3.jpg[/t] [I]Members of the nationalist Ukrainian Insurgent Army [a.k.a. the Nationalist Party of Ukraine] rallied in Kiev in December 2013. (Reuters/Gleb Garanich)[/I] Kiev’s two-month-long “Euromaidan” protest turned violent on Sunday as people in masks, outraged over restrictive protest laws hurriedly passed last week, marched on parliament and ran into police cordons that they pelted with stones and Molotov cocktails. Police hurled gas canisters, stun grenades, and a water cannon and rubber bullets at them, setting off a wave of clashes previously unknown at the largely peaceful protest. Spearheading the clashes with police was Right Sector, a group with ties to far-right parties including the Patriots of Ukraine and Trident, which BBC Ukraine reported is largely comprised of nationalist football fans. In a statement the next day, the group claimed credit for Sunday’s unrest and promised to continue fighting until President Viktor Yanukovich stepped down. [img]http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/131217154143-03-ukraine-1217-horizontal-gallery.jpg[/img] [i]In the background waves two flags of the "Nationalist Party of Ukraine"- the red and black bars.[/i] “Two months of unsuccessful tiptoeing about under the leadership of the opposition parties showed many demonstrators they need to follow not those who speak sweetly from the stage, but rather those who offer a real scenario for revolutionary changes in the country. For this reason, the protest masses followed the nationalists,” the statement read. The surge in violence sparked by Right Sector has revealed how uncritical and undiscerning most of the media has been of the far-right parties and movements that have played a leading role in the “Euromaidan,” the huge protests for closer ties to Europe that flared up in November and have taken over Kiev’s Independence Square... According to Maksim Butkevich of the coordinator of the No Borders Project of the Center for Social Action NGO, which works against discrimination and xenophobia, far-right groups have grown in popularity over the course of Euromaidan. “I wouldn’t say it’s big, that huge numbers of activists will join far-right groups after this, but they became more acceptable and in a way more mainstream than before for many active citizens,” Butkevich said. [img]http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/131201133946-09-ukraine-protest-1201-horizontal-gallery.jpg[/img] [i]A photo of a large protest. Among the flags, many Svoboda and Nationalist Party flags are flying.[/i] Although the outcome of the protests is still up in the air, if they lead to snap elections, nationalists could win greater political power, Butkevich said, especially Svoboda, the far-right parliamentary party in the coalition of three opposition parties leading the protest. (Right Sector criticizes all three for “pacifism,” including Svoboda.) It was Svoboda that was responsible for the most iconic image to come out of Euromaidan: On December 8, masked protestors waving blue Svoboda flags and yelling “Hang the Commie!” toppled a 67-year-old statue of Vladimir Lenin in the city center. Svoboda leader Ihor Miroshnychenko, who has faced charges for pulling down a Lenin statue in another city, told journalists his party was responsible. Svoboda is the most visible party on the square, it has essentially taken over Kiev City Hall as its base of operations, and it has a large influence in the protestors’ security forces. ... It also has revived three slogans originating in the Ukrainian nationalist movement of the 1930s that have become the most popular chants at Euromaidan. Almost all speakers on Independence Square—even boxer-turned-opposition-leader Vitaly Klitschko, who has lived mostly in Germany and has a US residence permit—start and end with the slogan, “Glory to Ukraine!,” to which the crowd responds “To heroes glory!” Two other nationalist call-and-response slogans often heard on the square are “Glory to the nation! Death to enemies!” and “Ukraine above all!” [img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71465000/jpg/_71465041_71465040.jpg[/img] [i]Among the protest are flags of the Nationalist Party and Svoboda.[/i] ... The protests come amid a resurgence of nationalist sentiment in Ukraine that can be compared to a Europe-wide rise of nationalist parties. Svoboda, which was originally known by the Nazi-esque moniker “Social-National Party of Ukraine” and whose leader Oleh Tyahnybok is infamous for a 2004 speech in which he argued that a “Moscow-Jewish mafia” was ruling Ukraine, entered parliament for the first time in 2012 by winning 10.44 percent of the popular vote. Before this, the party had come to dominate regional parliaments in three provinces in the largely Ukrainian-speaking west of the country. In last year’s elections, Svoboda notably finished second in cosmopolitan, Russian-speaking Kiev. [img]http://i.imgur.com/s0sR7dL.jpg[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/TD6Nory.jpg[/img] [I]This is Oleh Tyahnybok, he has claimed a "Moscow-Jewish mafia" rule Ukraine and that "Germans, Kikes and other scum" want to "take away our Ukrainian state."[/I][/quote] [quote] [url]http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/ukraines-fascists-hiding-plain-sight-9481[/url] Western coverage of the protests has ignored or downplayed the role of the crypto-fascist All-Ukrainian Union party, “Svoboda.” Its presence, however, is obvious—banners with its three-fingered symbol appear in many photographs from Independence Square in Kyiv. A man in a Svoboda jacket can be seen (at 1:26) in footage of an attack on police protecting a statue. And Svoboda’s leaders have associated themselves with the protest’s most radical action—the occupation and barricading of the Kyiv City Hall. The press noted a Svoboda leader’s claim that the protesters were merely there to warm up, and helpfully pointed out that it was four degrees Celsius outside. Meanwhile, Svoboda head Oleh Tyahnybok declared the City Hall a “temporary headquarters” for the revolution, announced that similar headquarters should be set up around the country, and condemned alleged government plans to restore government control of government buildings. He’s called for “a total social and national revolution,” and urged his supporters to “block and sabotage the work of the local councils where most of the deputies are not patriots. We are starting to rock the boat of the regime. In order to oust this regime, we must lock the entire operation of the state.” All that might count as pertinent information in reports that Ukrainian prime minister Mykola Azarov’s claimed that the protests show “all the signs of a coup d'etat.” Yet it’s absent. ... [t]http://rt.com/files/galleryitem/65/02/00/00/gallery-1.jpg[/t] [i]Marked on the shield of this protestor is the sun cross, a neo-nazi symbol, with the numbers 14 ("from the Fourteen Words coined by David Lane, a late 20th-century American white supremacist: 'We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children') and 88, for "Heil Hitler", H being the 8th letter in the English alphabet.[/i] [t]http://agenciaeternity.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/20140120-055820.jpg[/t] [I]Here a protester sports the shirt with the Svoboda party logo.[/I] Media outlets also have been cagey about identifying Svoboda’s ideological aims—when mentioned at all, the party’s often branded as merely “nationalist.” Yet they can only be described as national socialists—that is, as members of the statist, ethnocentric, totalitarian family of political movements that have included Italy’s fascists and Germany’s Nazis. Indeed, they were founded under the name Social Nationalist Party of Ukraine, and their official political program should sound familiar to those versed in old fascist manifestos like the Nazis’ Twenty-Five Points. The ideological similarities are deeper than mere ethnonationalism—other fascist hobbyhorses like the empowerment of the military, recapture of irredenta, the return of the diaspora, a central role for the state in the economy and the public settling of old historical grievances are there, too. Svoboda’s logo until about a decade ago was a rune that had once appeared on the crests of several SS divisions, and which is now illegal to display in Germany. [img]http://i.imgur.com/5pHagsg.jpg[/img] [I]Here we see a battalion of Patriots of Ukraine paramilitaries tooled up in the midst of the protests.[/I][/quote] There is no doubt at this point that the majority of protesters are pro-European liberals, and there are 2 other major opposition groups involved here. But we should take not of the ultranationalist and fascist undermovement, else this could become an Iran or Egypt.

Except they're just bandwagoning, they will have no power in the government.

[QUOTE=Reshy;43695909]Except they're just bandwagoning, they will have no power in the government.[/QUOTE] Probably not, but as the article did say there's a chance they could ride their immediate support to elecotral victories in smaller elections soon. Svoboda already has 36 seats in parliament.

i wouldn't worry about fascists taking over the country too much. i mean these protests have all been about fighting oppression or whatever, and i'm fairly sure that's one of the key things fascism needs to work

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43696015]i mean these protests have all been about fighting oppression or whatever[/QUOTE] lol no they aren't. snap out of your romanticized and sensationalized views of protest and defiance already, these people aren't fighting for democracy or peace. all they are doing is tearing the country apart and causing millions in damages.

[QUOTE=Melnek;43696311]lol no they aren't. snap out of your romanticized and sensationalized views of protest and defiance already, these people aren't fighting for democracy or peace. all they are doing is tearing the country apart and causing millions in damages.[/QUOTE] Half the reason this is happening is because the people who were already there were all made into criminals and backed into a corner. It was a peaceful protest, but now they have no recourse, if they step down, it's decades of jailtime for them. There was no way out for them, that's why things turned violent.

and then there's rioters who do it for the sole reason of posing cool in a picture

[QUOTE=Reshy;43695909]Except they're just bandwagoning, they will have no power in the government.[/QUOTE] Svoboda already has 37 MPs in parliament. I assume they will have more after the next parliamentary elections

[QUOTE=Melnek;43696311]lol no they aren't. snap out of your romanticized and sensationalized views of protest and defiance already, these people aren't fighting for democracy or peace. all they are doing is tearing the country apart and causing millions in damages.[/QUOTE] so i guess you don't think those laws were oppressive?

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43696675]so i guess you don't think those laws were oppressive?[/QUOTE] Of course they were oppressive, but this is the natural course of action when thousands of protesters gather at your front door. The first reaction to any protest in any country, no matter how democratic and liberal the government may be, is quelling those protests. Not just splitting the country in half and bending over to the demands of the people at the blink of an eye. That isn't how things get resolved, especially not in a democratic nation. If this was happening in, for example, Belarus, then violence wouldn't even be a question. But this is Ukraine, and a peaceful change -even with these oppressive laws in place-, was still a very viable and realistic option. Instead of pursuing that goal, the protesters decided to effectively turn into rioters and start beating the shit out of Berkut officers and hurling Molotovs at their faces. Taking out their anger on those who are simply there to keep the peace. After this, both the officers and the government went on the offensive. Officers were going on the offensive not through orders from higher ups, but by their own free will and lust for revenge. Many of the officers have colleagues who were put into a coma or had other serious life injuries, and so of course they would destroy any stray protester they got their hands on out of sheer anger. And even then, these are just isolated, disgruntled officers, most officers exercise extreme restraint as shown in many [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xuDveZEguc] videos.[/url] The government on the other hand also made some shitty decisions like kidnapping protesters from hospitals and questioning them 50's-KGB style in dark woods which of course added fuel to the fire, but the protesters are still the main instigators of violence rather than the other way around. These protests are unique because some of the opposition supporters are very clever. They mainly focus on PR and gaining the support of the world through omission. Their cameras show only Berkut-on-citizenry violence, and omit any footage of citizen brutality on officers who have to just stand there and take it by order. This is why so many people on FP support the protesters, they only see one side of this clusterfuck and anyone who says otherwise is a dictatorship-supporting Fascist.

except the reason these protests even got violent/out of hand in the first place is due to those ridiculous laws

This thread made me look up Svoboda on Wikipedia. Here's a few interesting points [quote]- Only those born in Ukraine can become Ukrainian citizens, with the exceptions for those who have lived in Ukraine for more than 15 years, know the Ukrainian language, culture and Ukrainian Constitution - Ban on abortion, except in cases of medical necessity, or rape; and imprisonment from three to seven years for those who violate this ban - Cancelling taxes on Ukrainian language products — films, music and literature — and instead imposing taxes on non-Ukrainian language products. The proceeds obtained this way will be channeled into developing Ukrainian language products - The restoration of the Soviet practice of indicating the ethnic origin in passports and on birth certificates - Ban on adoptions by non-Ukrainians of Ukrainian children - Dismissal of employees of state structures who had been active in the Soviet apparatus before 1991 - Russia should apologize "for its communist crimes"[2] - Ukraine should again re-acquire tactical nuclear weaponry[/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29#Stances[/url] And these guys control 8% of the seats in the Ukrainian parliament.

[QUOTE=Melnek;43696311]lol no they aren't. snap out of your romanticized and sensationalized views of protest and defiance already, these people aren't fighting for democracy or peace. all they are doing is tearing the country apart and causing millions in damages.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_spring[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autumn_of_nations[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_revolution[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_revolution[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_revolution[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_revolution[/url] Look at all those stupid protesters throughout history, tearing up a country they were supposed to be content with

[QUOTE=Melnek;43696906]Of course they were oppressive, but this is the natural course of action when thousands of protesters gather at your front door. The first reaction to any protest in any country, no matter how democratic and liberal the government may be, is quelling those protests. Not just splitting the country in half and bending over to the demands of the people at the blink of an eye. That isn't how things get resolved, especially not in a democratic nation. If this was happening in, for example, Belarus, then violence wouldn't even be a question. But this is Ukraine, and a peaceful change -even with these oppressive laws in place-, was still a very viable and realistic option. Instead of pursuing that goal, the protesters decided to effectively turn into rioters and start beating the shit out of Berkut officers and hurling Molotovs at their faces. Taking out their anger on those who are simply there to keep the peace. After this, both the officers and the government went on the offensive. Officers were going on the offensive not through orders from higher ups, but by their own free will and lust for revenge. Many of the officers have colleagues who were put into a coma or had other serious life injuries, and so of course they would destroy any stray protester they got their hands on out of sheer anger. And even then, these are just isolated, disgruntled officers, most officers exercise extreme restraint as shown in many [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xuDveZEguc] videos.[/url] The government on the other hand also made some shitty decisions like kidnapping protesters from hospitals and questioning them 50's-KGB style in dark woods which of course added fuel to the fire, but the protesters are still the main instigators of violence rather than the other way around. These protests are unique because some of the opposition supporters are very clever. They mainly focus on PR and gaining the support of the world through omission. Their cameras show only Berkut-on-citizenry violence, and omit any footage of citizen brutality on officers who have to just stand there and take it by order. This is why so many people on FP support the protesters, they only see one side of this clusterfuck and anyone who says otherwise is a dictatorship-supporting Fascist.[/QUOTE] The protesters were peaceful during the last three months and managed to instigate change without violence during November/December. The government responded by making protesting illegal, as well as criticizing the government. Only when the protesters became wanted criminals did they respond violently, as an army of police are waiting for the protest to disperse so they can issue thousands of politically-motivated arrests. You can't retroactively justify the laws by pointing at the violence that's happened since. Oh, and nice damage control for the Berkut. I didn't realize "questioning" injured protesters meant beating them further or killing them.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43696928]except the reason these protests even got violent/out of hand in the first place is due to those ridiculous laws[/QUOTE] The violence started before that. It just got worse after the laws were passed. "Peaceful protests", as in "less people throwing stones and using pepper sprays": neo-nazis there were violent from the start, and they tried their best to provoke violence in return.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43696015] i'm fairly sure that's one of the key things fascism needs to work[/QUOTE] Different views of liberty. Liberation of the country, defeating foreign oppressors, etc. Ultra right wing parties also don't necessarily argue for dictatorship nowadays. Lets also not forget how easily a revolution driven by ideals can be twisted.

An extreme right wing fascist government would never be created or even remotely subsist because anything remotely resembling a nazi party would get taken down immediately. See golden dawn.

[QUOTE=Melnek;43696906]Of course they were oppressive, but this is the natural course of action when thousands of protesters gather at your front door. The first reaction to any protest in any country, no matter how democratic and liberal the government may be, is quelling those protests. Not just splitting the country in half and bending over to the demands of the people at the blink of an eye. That isn't how things get resolved, especially not in a democratic nation. If this was happening in, for example, Belarus, then violence wouldn't even be a question. But this is Ukraine, and a peaceful change -even with these oppressive laws in place-, was still a very viable and realistic option. Instead of pursuing that goal, the protesters decided to effectively turn into rioters and start beating the shit out of Berkut officers and hurling Molotovs at their faces. Taking out their anger on those who are simply there to keep the peace. After this, both the officers and the government went on the offensive. Officers were going on the offensive not through orders from higher ups, but by their own free will and lust for revenge. Many of the officers have colleagues who were put into a coma or had other serious life injuries, and so of course they would destroy any stray protester they got their hands on out of sheer anger. And even then, these are just isolated, disgruntled officers, most officers exercise extreme restraint as shown in many [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xuDveZEguc] videos.[/url] The government on the other hand also made some shitty decisions like kidnapping protesters from hospitals and questioning them 50's-KGB style in dark woods which of course added fuel to the fire, but the protesters are still the main instigators of violence rather than the other way around. These protests are unique because some of the opposition supporters are very clever. They mainly focus on PR and gaining the support of the world through omission. Their cameras show only Berkut-on-citizenry violence, and omit any footage of citizen brutality on officers who have to just stand there and take it by order. This is why so many people on FP support the protesters, they only see one side of this clusterfuck and anyone who says otherwise is a dictatorship-supporting Fascist.[/QUOTE] Oh god are you for real? "natural course of action" Please, never ever be in charge over anything more important than a dumpster truck.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;43697896]An extreme right wing fascist government would never be created or even remotely subsist because anything remotely resembling a nazi party would get taken down immediately. See golden dawn.[/QUOTE] Don't underestimate the ability of fascism to sneak in the door

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;43697896]An extreme right wing fascist government would never be created or even remotely subsist because anything remotely resembling a nazi party would get taken down immediately. See golden dawn.[/QUOTE] The Golden Dawn managed to hold seats in parliament for years until the recent outrage with a famous singer getting killed. But I guess they never really got a dangerous amount of power. [editline]28th January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Lonestriper;43697929]Don't underestimate the ability of fascism to sneak in the door[/QUOTE] It can exist, it just has to be a bit more slithery in its dealings. But with nationalist movements on the rise and such, you never know what might happen.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;43697896]An extreme right wing fascist government would never be created or even remotely subsist because anything remotely resembling a nazi party would get taken down immediately. See golden dawn.[/QUOTE] Golden Dawn is not an example. Riots in Greece naturally align to the left a lot, so the extreme right parties get taken down even despite having solid number of voters. The situation is diffirent in Ukraine, there exists a very visible division between population of eastern and western territories. Fascists naturally gain the upper hand where such division is present, and on the foreground of shit present government does, they might even seem like a good alternative for a lot of people.

Fascism relies on political instability and the misgivings of a collective turning into a big nasty pile. It offers a sort of sense of unity, authority, and stability in an otherwise unstable state and then rides off of that support to perpetuate itself, and the hatred of "the enemy" that comes along with it. As long as sectarian hatred, instability, and shit like that exists, fascism will weed its way into a position where it can be exercised. The only thing keeping it from springing up is vigilance and the self-control of those who are caught in a sociopolitical hellhole.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;43697919]Oh god are you for real? "natural course of action" Please, never ever be in charge over anything more important than a dumpster truck.[/QUOTE] I believe this is the same guy who thought every country should just disband their military and then we would have world peace, while also defending Israel's foreign policy.

Since the beginning it was obvious that Ukrainian nationalists are the main driving force of what they call 'a fight for the democracy.' I'm not surprised by seeing McCain near Tyahnybok, but I'm happy that US congressman Eliot Engel admits the anti-Semitic nature of Euromaidan's opposition - engel.house.gov/latest-news1/engel-statement-on-antisemitic-actions-by-ukrainian-member-of-parliament-from-svoboda-party/ Since I live in Europe I don't want to see nationalist zealots here and Tyahnybok is not the person to be a friend of Europe. I don't understand why US congressman realizes that nationalists are big danger and headache while European authorities widely support Ukrainian nationalists. That's a big shame for all of us and I'm sure that we won't be able to vipe off the disgrace inflicted on our reputation. Today Europe is overwhelmed with dozens of problems, so why adding new ones?

"...Germans, Kikes and other scum" want to "take away our Ukrainian state." Where did he say this, is there any video about it? on the wiki "The core positions in the party's ideology has been broadly described as Anti-Semitism by political opponents, Jewish organisations, various Israeli politicians and journalists." It's pretty easy to spread disinformation, don't get fooled.

This is why people should be careful fetishing protests.

[IMG_thumb]http://i.imgur.com/5pHagsg.jpg[/IMG_thumb] Lad on the far left [IMG]http://media.psu.com/media/articles/image/heihachi-mishima.jpg[/IMG] ???

I would have imagined rightists would be taken part in the riots, you wouldn't take too kindly to a foreign nation giving you the short end of the stick economically.

[QUOTE=tr00per7;43700047]I would have imagined rightists would be taken part in the riots, you wouldn't take too kindly to a foreign nation giving you the short end of the stick economically.[/QUOTE] You get both far-right and far-left groups at mass demonstrations like these, you also get louts who have no real political opinion and are just there to cause trouble and fight. This is almost universal to any protest, and thats often how riots start. When police have to move in they often target those lads specially.

Okay this sounds like some bullshit, especially this part. "This is Oleh Tyahnybok, he has claimed a "Moscow-Jewish mafia" rule Ukraine and that "Germans, Kikes and other scum" want to "take away our Ukrainian state." If you look at the richest Ukrainian people you can see a lot of them are jewish, and the multibillionaires control the government. A lot of senior NKVD officers in Ukraine were Jewish, these officers massacred innocent Ukrainians which also tainted the image of Jewish people from Ukrainians. But he did [b]not[/b] call Jewish people Kikes in that speech, he used the Ukrainian word for Jews and not Kikes. "Germans, Kikes and other scum" want to "take away our Ukrainian state." Here he was refering to the enemies the Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought a long time ago, he does not think they're all scum. Don't trust the OP, either it was intentional to make the party leader look bad or it was a mistake. See how he edited it to look like he's talking in present tense while in the speech he really wasnt? Oleh Tyahnybok himself even denied he was anti-Semitic, besides it was a long time ago he said that, it's likely he learned from his mistakes.