• Body Clocks Altered at Cell Level in Depression
    30 replies, posted
[url]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130513152359.htm[/url] [QUOTE][B]Every cell in our bodies runs on a 24-hour clock, tuned to the night-day, light-dark cycles that have ruled us since the dawn of humanity. The brain acts as timekeeper, keeping the cellular clock in sync with the outside world so that it can govern our appetites, sleep, moods and much more.[/B] "There really was a moment of discovery," says Li, who led the analysis of the massive amount of data generated by the rest of the team and is a research assistant professor in U-M's Department of Computational Medicine at Bioinformatics. "It was when we realized that many of the genes that show 24-hour cycles in the normal individuals were well-known circadian rhythm genes -- and when we saw that the people with depression were not synchronized to the usual solar day in terms of this gene activity. It's as if they were living in a different time zone than the one they died in." "Hundreds of new genes that are very sensitive to circadian rhythms emerged from this research -- not just the primary clock genes that have been studied in animals or cell cultures, but other genes whose activity rises and falls throughout the day," she says. "We were truly able to watch the daily rhythm play out in a symphony of biological activity, by studying where the clock had stopped at the time of death. And then, in depressed people, we could see how this was disrupted." Now, she adds, scientists must use this information to help find new ways to predict depression, fine-tune treatment for each depressed patient, and even find new medications or other types of treatment to develop and test. One possibility, she notes, could be to identify biomarkers for depression -- telltale molecules that can be detected in blood, skin or hair. And, the challenge of determining why the circadian clock is altered in depression still remains. "We can only glimpse the possibility that the disruption seen in depression may have more than one cause. We need to learn more about whether something in the nature of the clock itself is affected, because if you could fix the clock you might be able to help people get better," Akil notes.[/QUOTE] That's rather interesting, hope we can do some actual good with this piece of knowledge.
Well, that may explain how when everyone in my house had a 9-5 sleeping schedule theirs was PM to AM and mine was AM to PM. That was a weird month.
[QUOTE=helpiminabox;40645515]Well, that may explain how when everyone in my house had a 9-5 sleeping schedule theirs was PM to AM and mine was AM to PM. That was a weird month.[/QUOTE] Melatonin works wonders for fixing a sleep schedule.
Does that mean that those stay up all night are more prone to depression, or just that those who are depressed are more prone to staying up all night?
[QUOTE=deadoon;40645587]Melatonin works wonders for fixing a sleep schedule.[/QUOTE] not really it just helps me get to sleep.
[quote]The brain acts as timekeeper, keeping the cellular clock in sync with the outside world so that it can govern our appetites, sleep, moods and much more.[/quote]What? This is wrong, everybody knows that it's God who wakes you up in the morning. [IMG]http://filesmelt.com/dl/2897.jpg[/IMG] What is a brain anyway? I've never seen it, how do I know it's even real? You can't see air either, and as far as we know that isn't real either
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;40645610]Does that mean that those stay up all night are more prone to depression, or just that those who are depressed are more prone to staying up all night?[/QUOTE] I'd wager the former. Past research has strongly linked night shift worker to significantly worse health/health risks compared to 9-5 workers, by extent including pretty much anyone with deviant sleeping habits.
[QUOTE=Killer900;40645751]What? This is wrong, everybody knows that it's God who wakes you up in the morning. [IMG]http://filesmelt.com/dl/2897.jpg[/IMG] What is a brain anyway? I've never seen it, how do I know it's even real? You can't see air either, and as far as we know that isn't real either[/QUOTE] Way to bring religion into a discussion where it wasn't needed or wanted.
[QUOTE=Forumaster;40649338]Way to bring religion into a discussion where it wasn't needed or wanted.[/QUOTE] Or relevant in any way.
[QUOTE=Forumaster;40649338]Way to bring religion into a discussion where it wasn't needed or wanted.[/QUOTE] I don't think he was being serious. I hope he wasn't.
[QUOTE=Inufin;40649509]I don't think he was being serious. I hope he wasn't.[/QUOTE] Even if he was joking, he still summoned religion into the discussion.
[QUOTE=Forumaster;40649519]Even if he was joking, he still summoned religion into the discussion.[/QUOTE] Give the guy a break; he was just making a joke and you suddenly came at him all offended and shit.
well you did also bump a thread which was 6 hours old just to bitch about it when clearly no one else really noticed because the thread was dead
[QUOTE=Pandamox;40649646]well you did also bump a thread which was 6 hours old just to bitch about it when clearly no one else really noticed because the thread was dead[/QUOTE] not posted in in six hours = dead you have never used a forum besides facepunch have you? i think this makes perfect sense, my circadian rhythms seem to be at like 32 or 34 hours (when i adjust to my body completely and sleep comfortably and whatnot) awake for 20 and then sleep for 12
I stay awake for about 20 hours and sleep for 4
[QUOTE=ashrobhoy;40655798]I stay awake for about 20 hours and sleep for 4[/QUOTE] same here, during the week when i have shit to do
[QUOTE=Forumaster;40649338]Way to bring religion into a discussion where it wasn't needed or wanted.[/QUOTE] He's being an ~~EDGY~~ atheist CHECKMATING those dumbass fundies.
[QUOTE=innerfire69;40655761]not posted in in six hours = dead you have never used a forum besides facepunch have you?[/QUOTE] how is the time for a thread to die on non-facepunch forums relevant [b]on facepunch?[/b]
[QUOTE=SPESSMEHREN;40656149]He's being an ~~EDGY~~ atheist CHECKMATING those dumbass fundies.[/QUOTE] stop using the word edgy, it's annoying as fuck and just perpetuates shitty internet humour at such a low level I half expect a laugh-track to accompany it
[QUOTE=Hellduck;40656222]how is the time for a thread to die on non-facepunch forums relevant [b]on facepunch?[/b][/QUOTE] the forums keep going past page 1 you know
Interesting fact: With artificial light (no real sun/moon), you can lengthen the circadian rythm with about an hour. This is over an extended period of time though. Lecture time! According to the circadian organizations, there are three categories that defines our sleeping behaviour. First off is the [B]Chronotype.[/B] This one defines when we actually naturally go to sleep. Some of us are night persons, others are morning persons. Remember that this is without a stimulus that is keeping us awake (e.g. computers, tv, books etc). You could call this the "biological clock of sleeping". At certain points during the day your body temperature will drop and your body will prepare itself for sleep, you become drowzy. This happens at about three times in a day. When, depends on your chronotype. Second is the [B]Somnotype.[/B] It defines the typology of individual differences in the homeostatic regulation of sleep. It means that there are differences in how much we actually need to sleep. Some are natural 5 hour sleepers whilst others might need 10 hours per night. Sleeping more will make you overly tired and not feel refreshed. Sleeping less will sleep deprive you. [U]You might feel fine for a few days but you are really making yourself sleep deprived over time.[/U] There is no escaping this, and I will come back to that later. Third, and least exciting part, is the [B]Trototype.[/B] This one shows the differences of our reactions to being sleep deprived. Some might experience serious disorientation whilst other just get a bit cranky. Motor control could suffer in various degrees. It all depends on the individual. Alright then, you ask, what actually makes us go to sleep? I'm going to keep it simple for you boys and girls out there. Imagine a see-saw. On one end, there are a group of neurons that are called "monoaminergic." On the other end there are a bunch of dudes called Ventrolateral Pre-optic neurons, but we'll just call them MA and VLPO for short. MA got a buddy called Orexin that helps him push down on MA's side of the see-saw. As long as MA's feet are touching the ground, he keeps the Ascending Reticular Activating System up and running. That means we are awake. When MA's feet is touching the ground, it also means that it actively keeps VLPO's feet from doing the same. This is important. When VLPO is floating high above ground, it gets filled with something called Adenosine. This makes VLPO heavier over time. After some time, VLPO starts to descend and it won't take long until the tables are turned. The VLPO neurons activate and it does three things at once. It actively inhibits [I]both[/I] MA and Orexin from working. It is done by a steady release of Galanin and gamma-Aminobutyric Acid (GABA). While it is blocking MA and Orexin, it also sends other orders to the brain to initiate a sleep state. Sweet dreams. If anyone is interested, I will (tomorrow) write a post on the different stages of sleep, and what differentiates them from the REM sleep we hear so much about.
[QUOTE=Kazumi;40658308] If anyone is interested, I will (tomorrow) write a post on the different stages of sleep, and what differentiates them from the REM sleep we hear so much about.[/QUOTE] I personally would enjoy reading more.
This is pretty interesting, and whats with all the hate goin all of a sudden? edit: if your feeling cranky, go outside and get ur cell clocks straightened out!
[QUOTE=deadoon;40645587]Melatonin works wonders for fixing a sleep schedule.[/QUOTE] Or just stay awake for 24 hours.
[QUOTE=laserguided;40659164]Or just stay awake for 24 hours.[/QUOTE] Unless you have the day off, I'd advise against this. When you are sleep deprived your judgement is distorted and you take higher risks. Avoid driving. Let's see. Some of you wanted to know about the different sleep stages, right? But first, how do we measure brain activity when we sleep? We do something called [B]Polysomnography[/B] (PSG). That is a collection of electrode with different purposes fastened over the body. It consist of: EEG - Electroencephalogram. Electrodes fastened at the scalp measuring brain activity. EOG - Electro-oculogram. Electrodes fastened near the eyes to measure eye movement. EMG - Electromyogram. These electrodes measure muscle tone and how relaxed you are. These are usually put below the chin. There are a few other things we measure during polysomnography. ECG (heart rhythm), breathing rhythm, and sound levels (a microphone). [img]http://i.imgur.com/BGmlifT.jpg[/img] Why not use PET (Positron Emission Tomography) or fMRI (Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging)? (images are in order) [img]http://i.imgur.com/guziJKG.jpg[/img] [img]http://i.imgur.com/7eZYPcc.jpg[/img] Well. PET scan is incredibly slow in comparison. It is also incredibly expensive and long sessions will completely drain all the funding. It requires the ingestion of a radioactive isotope. It binds to the glucose and when the brain cells consume these, a positron is released. When the positron collides with an electrode it annihilates, and that is what we see in the pictures. The stronger the colour = the more isotopes are annihilated in that area = the greater the activity there is. fMRI on the other hand is a lot quicker. But compared to the PET scanner, it is incredibly noisy. There are great pumps that circulate liquid helium to keep the machine cool and efficient. When it actually scans, metal inside the machine vibration in a quick asynchronous manner. The noise can be unbearable and you are required to have both ear plugs and ear protection. On top of that, you can't move or the pictures will be ruined. The head can be mounted in a cage/mask of sorts. But this hardly makes it an optimal sleeping environment. Right, now we've established that PSG is the shit. What kind of readings to we get from it? I'm going to borrow some pictures from my professor's slides, just to make things easier for all of us. The EEG part of the PSG measure the brain activity, and the activity has 5 different stages when it comes to sleep. The lower the frequency, the higher amplitude we get. That means that the waves become bigger but more far in between. [img]http://i.imgur.com/u6j0scO.jpg[/img] Gamma = 32-100 Hz Beta = 12-32 Hz Alfa = 8-12 Hz Theta = 4-8 Hz Delta = < 4 Hz So, let's dive into the sleep-part of this here lecture. As you might now, we have REM sleep (Rapid Eye Movement). Studies have shown that we are almost always dreaming when we are in REM sleep. But there is also something called NREM sleep. That simply means Non Rapid Eye Movement. NREM got three stages ranging from N1 to N3. N1: Also called the sleep onset stage. This is when we just have fallen asleep. This stage got low amplitude and generally high frequency (beta, alfa, theta). This stage lasts only for a few minutes. N2: This is where things get interesting. The amplitude gets a bit higher and the frequency slows down (theta). But we can also find something called [B]sleep spindles[/B] and [B]k-complexes[/B]. Sleep spindles are short bursts of very high frequency whilst k-complexes are a sudden blast of high amplitude. The k-complexes are always followed by a spindle. N3: What we call deep sleep. Now we have theta and delta movements going on. Breathing is heavy and regular and we usually snore. Let us look at some pictures shall we? I will post the picture then put a description underneath describing the different parts in proper order. This might all seem confusing, but I will try and lead you through it. We start with the baseline awakened state. [img]http://i.imgur.com/DCWIUSB.jpg[/img] Up at the EOG we see the eye movements. The patient has both shifted his gaze and blinked. Below we see the brain activity. As you can see the activity is high and constant. The EMG are split up in two parts here. The above one has the electrode set below the chin, and the lower is probably fastened on the tibia. ECG shows the heart rhythm. This one is probably the least interesting one, so I will probably skip that one. Breathing is irregular, and it is normal when we are awake. We sometimes take deep breaths, sighs, clear our throat etc. The microphone picks up a bit of noise. This could either be from the subject himself or from moving in the bed. [img]http://i.imgur.com/KTqeW2m.jpg[/img] Now the subject is asleep. As you can see, everything has calmed down quite dramatically. The EOG shows that there is still some tension in the eye muscles. The EEG has become marginally slower but far more stable. The EMG still shows some activity in the muscles. The sleeper isn't completely relaxed yet. Breathing has become heavy and more regular. Our sleeper is probably breathing out from his or her mouth as can be seen on the microphone. [img]http://i.imgur.com/1Dyq1Eg.jpg[/img] There are still some slight twitching around the eyes. The EEG here shows the spindles (first circle with high frequency) and the k-complexes (the big "booms"). Normally a k-complex is followed by a spindle. Not sure why it is the other way around here. EMG shows little to no muscle activity. Breathing has become shallow. The body doesn't require as much oxygen. [img]http://i.imgur.com/cqzz2S9.jpg[/img] Virtually no movement around the eyes. Here we have the massive delta waves. As you can see they are quite far in between. The EMG here shows a bit of twitching in the leg, otherwise it is incredibly calm. Breathing has intensified a little bit. Our sleeper is now snoring! Ok. That was the NREM sleep stages. What do you think will happen during REM sleep? Let's see. [img]http://i.imgur.com/3tyDukL.jpg[/img] Woah! Look at that eye movement! In fact, the REM is so intense that it is actually faster than what we can produce while we are awake! Our eyes are literally moving faster while we sleep. The brain activity got a bit of a boost. It is very similar to the N1 stage with mixed alfa, beta and theta waves. The brain is actively working right now. The muscle activity have completely flatlined. Our sleeper is effectively paralyzed, save for a tiny twitch in his leg. Breathing has become shallow and irregular. So this is what a sleep cycle looks like. But given the name "sleep cycle" it means that it occurs more than once per night. The first cycle is defined from sleep onset to the end of the first REM. All subsequent cycles are recorded from the end of the first REM to the end of the next. The first REM occurs (quite consistently) about 90-100 minutes after sleep onset. First REM is quite brief (5-10 minutes), but they get progressively longer during the night (up to 45 minutes). After REM (and during the second half of the night) we usually wake up for a bit, but we hardly ever remember it. During dream studies the subjects are awoken during REM sleep. We are more inclined to remember our dreams if we are aroused during REM than if we were to sleep the full night. About half the night we spend in N2 NREM. N3 is mostly found early on during the night and it gets shorter for each cycle. It is possible to deprive a person of deep sleep by constantly waking him during it. Here's a picture of a sleep schedule. [img]http://i.imgur.com/kRNxurC.jpg[/img] So, I guess that's everything. I can try and answer some questions, but I can't promise that I will give complete answers.
[QUOTE=innerfire69;40657878]the forums keep going past page 1 you know[/QUOTE] im, sure they do, but that's still irrelevant, even if you deem a thread on the fifth page to still be alie, the fact that threads die slower on other forums is still totally irrelevant
[QUOTE=Hellduck;40663170]im, sure they do, but that's still irrelevant, even if you deem a thread on the fifth page to still be alie, the fact that threads die slower on other forums is still totally irrelevant[/QUOTE] i'm sure your parents would be proud of your ability to argue irrelevantly about the relevance of a topic to something you're not actively discussing and you're not exactly an omnipotent orb of objectivity are you? what's relevant to me might not occur to you naturally, that's why you have to think about the connection i'm making, and not mash quick reply as soon as you see this to tell me more about how facepunch isn't a web forum and can't be compared to web forums, because it is, it can, and i have. on topic: what the fuck, REM breathing is "shallow and irregular"?
[QUOTE=innerfire69;40663225]i'm sure your parents would be proud of your ability to argue irrelevantly about the relevance of a topic to something you're not actively discussing and you're not exactly an omnipotent orb of objectivity are you? what's relevant to me might not occur to you naturally, that's why you have to think about the connection i'm making, and not mash quick reply as soon as you see this to tell me more about how facepunch isn't a web forum and can't be compared to web forums, because it is, it can, and i have. on topic: what the fuck, REM breathing is "shallow and irregular"?[/QUOTE] well you're arguing about it too, so don't come over all high and mighty. plus you've totally missed my point, but never mind
Makes a lot of sense, a bunch of my friends who constantly pull allnighters or have a skewed sleep schedule show symptoms of depression. [QUOTE=deadoon;40645587]Melatonin works wonders for fixing a sleep schedule.[/QUOTE] Any of the disagreers feel like elaborating? Melatonin's worked wonders for me when fixing my sleep schedule after vacations and stuff like that.
[QUOTE=innerfire69;40663225] on topic: what the fuck, REM breathing is "shallow and irregular"?[/QUOTE] This is compared to the regular rhythm one might have. It's not like you are dying. The instruments are very sensitive and pick up on these differences. If you look at the pictures I provided, REM breathing are more similar to the ones we have when awake than any of the NREM breathing patterns.
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