• [games] Bullet count VS Mag count?
    53 replies, posted
Lets imagine you created an FPS game. Which would you prefer, having a bullet count so that for example you can shoot 1 bullet and reload and you do not lose any bullets, OR having a magazine count, so that when you reload, you throw away the magazine and all the bullets left inside of it? I think a mag count is a lot more realistic and strategic approach, while bullet count is more arcadey. If you could decide whether to have bullet/mag count in Battlefield 3, which one would you choose? Why? Personally i would choose the mag count, because that brings an important strategic challenge to the game. will your bullets in the mag be sufficient when you enter that building, or do you have to reload?
In real life you have to be a fucking idiot to throw away a mag, especially one that still has bullets in it. Swappable mags work in theory but the problem is that you can't choose which mag you want so you need to reload a bunch of times before you get the right ones. And picking a specific mag in shooter games takes too much time and button presses. Regenerating health is not realistic one bit, but it doesn't force you to run miles with 1hp left. Or getting shot a bunch of times and not reacting to that isn't realistic either. I wouldn't mind if in BF3 they added a system where if you get shot in the leg you move slower or in the arm and you can't aim properly. But again it would be terrible because if you get shot in the leg in the middle of nowhere, it will take you ages to crawl to get killed or a medic. I especially hate games where you have a revolver but reloading causes you to throw out your ammo, wtf up with that shit? Since BF3 is not a simulator, I don't mind a bag of bullets and magically refilling magazines.
Mags work pretty well in Killing Floor, and it does add a bit of strategy to it. I think I actually prefer the mag system because of that.
I agree with the OP entirely. Sims like ArmA2 should have Mag Count because they have a realistic just about everything else - even the helicopters and jets require a refuel and rearm at a staging base. However for arcades such as BF3 (sorry DICE, this isn't ArmA3 it's a BF game) and Call of Duty, in the interest of simplicity, bullet count is just fine. Moving onto Ace's point, I like the way Bioshock and Bioshock 2 handled swappable ammo. You could either go into a UI which allowed you to choose one of the three types or scroll through with a key.
[QUOTE=Jon27;32920802]sorry DICE, this isn't ArmA3 it's a BF game[/QUOTE] I think they are really aware of that since they are competing with goddamn mw3 not arma. [QUOTE=Jon27;32920802] Moving onto Ace's point, I like the way Bioshock and Bioshock 2 handled swappable ammo. You could either go into a UI which allowed you to choose one of the three types or scroll through with a key.[/QUOTE] Sure, but I don't want that in BF3 because I don't want to sit near a house, picking the right mag when I get killed by an airstrike anyway. In bioshock you could just stand on the corner and pick what you like because chances of you getting killed were slim. TBH I don't see any use of mag picking system in BF. You reload in safe spots, not in the middle of action, usually. So you would pick the right mag in a safe spot. Which changes nothing from pressing R to reload. Then you just have to not run out while in a firefight. If you do, you will rush to safety to reload. What would change if you had to pick a mag? If you're going to throw away a mag that has 29/30 bullets, then atleast give me a chance to refill the goddamn mag.
Throwing a magazine away is probably more realistic, but not always more fun. I prefer playing my games with a bullet count, not a magazine count.
[QUOTE=Skidd;32920792]Mags work pretty well in Killing Floor, and it does add a bit of strategy to it. I think I actually prefer the mag system because of that.[/QUOTE] In KF the GUI just divides the number of rounds you have by the number of rounds in a full mag. Nothing is thrown away when you reload. [QUOTE=AceOfDivine;32920775]In real life you have to be a fucking idiot to throw away a mag, especially one that still has bullets in it. Swappable mags work in theory but the problem is that you can't choose which mag you want so you need to reload a bunch of times before you get the right ones. And picking a specific mag in shooter games takes too much time and button presses. Regenerating health is not realistic one bit, but it doesn't force you to run miles with 1hp left. Or getting shot a bunch of times and not reacting to that isn't realistic either. [/QUOTE] I think the best system is one where a reload swaps the magazine in the weapon for the one with the most ammo. So if I reload an empty weapon and I have two magazines left, one with 10 and one with 20 rounds, it will load the one with 20. Half Life FireArms also had a "Magazine merge" key which would, as implied, make as many full magazines from the ammo left in each one. If the game also has an inventory system, ideally you could select them manually if you want to. Personally, I prefer the magazine system, and I'd like to have the OPTION to keep or throw the mag during a reload. Hold down reload = keep mag, tap reload = dump mag, making the reload slightly quicker. I'd also like to see in games the ability to manually load magazines, ie mixing in different round types like tracer, JHP, FMJ etc. but for most people it'd be way too finnicky, and not really practical in a lot of games. Another thing I enjoy is a bit more interaction with weapons, like in Red Orchestra with the bolt-action rifles, where the first click will fire, the second cycles the next round into the chamber. It adds a sense of tactility.
What you could do is have the partially expended mag be retained, but not merge the magazines. Make it so that with each reload you automatically choose the mag with the most bullets left.
In real life you don't reload until your mag is out of bullets, so this is all nonsense anyways.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;32921708]In real life you don't reload until your mag is out of bullets, so this is all nonsense anyways.[/QUOTE] So you're saying in every engagement to have occurred in history ever involving firearms, nobody has reloaded until their mag is depleted? There's a lot of times at which a "tactical reload" is practical, especially in close quarters.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;32921708]In real life you don't reload until your mag is out of bullets, so this is all nonsense anyways.[/QUOTE] Uh, so if you had less than half a mag left and you're stacked up on a door about to clear it, you wouldn't change mags first? Seems like a load of crap to me. There's this thing called a tactical reload, look it up. [editline]23rd October 2011[/editline] wow morbo beats me to the punch every time damn it
[QUOTE=iFail;32921738] wow morbo beats me to the punch every time damn it[/QUOTE] I swear you're my paraphrasing echo One thing I hate in FPS is not being able to change my weapon's firemode - Being stuck in Full auto all the time just angers me
Sometimes you gotta choose between fun and realism, and personally i'd prefer the bullet count since I wouldn't end up throwing away magazines or loading a mag that I switched out earlier when it was on it's last legs. Also, regenerating health isn't necessarily as unrealistic as they say. Sure the "hide behind barrel for 10 seconds until screen is clear of jam" type of regenerating health is very unrealistic, but a system whereby the health regenerates at a slow and gradual pace is closer to the real-life equivalent, where the human body gradually recovers from injuries over the course of days, weeks, months, etc. Sure there are injuries where the body's condition deteriorates faster than it can heal, but the milder cases of such injuries can be stabilised if proper medical treatment is applied. Have the healing slow-ish but boostable by using correct healing items, and you've got a better system. The limb-based health mechanic would also offer a more tactical experience; it worked in Deus Ex.
[QUOTE=BrQ;32921603]Throwing a magazine away is probably more realistic, but not always more fun. I prefer playing my games with a bullet count, not a magazine count.[/QUOTE] It's not realistic at all. In real life only stupid people throw away empty mags or mags that have some bullets left. A magazine can be refilled and just throwing it out is such a waste. It's like throwing out the gun if you run out of ammo. You might do it in a videogame but not in real life.
[QUOTE=ironman17;32921904]Sometimes you gotta choose between fun and realism, and personally i'd prefer the bullet count since I wouldn't end up throwing away magazines or loading a mag that I switched out earlier when it was on it's last legs. Also, regenerating health isn't necessarily as unrealistic as they say. Sure the "hide behind barrel for 10 seconds until screen is clear of jam" type of regenerating health is very unrealistic, but a system whereby the health regenerates at a slow and gradual pace is closer to the real-life equivalent, where the human body gradually recovers from injuries over the course of days, weeks, months, etc. Sure there are injuries where the body's condition deteriorates faster than it can heal, but the milder cases of such injuries can be stabilised if proper medical treatment is applied. Have the healing slow-ish but boostable by using correct healing items, and you've got a better system. The limb-based health mechanic would also offer a more tactical experience; it worked in Deus Ex.[/QUOTE] Doesn't work for multiplayer fps's.
[QUOTE=ironman17;32921904]Sometimes you gotta choose between fun and realism, and personally i'd prefer the bullet count since I wouldn't end up throwing away magazines or loading a mag that I switched out earlier when it was on it's last legs. Also, regenerating health isn't necessarily as unrealistic as they say. Sure the "hide behind barrel for 10 seconds until screen is clear of jam" type of regenerating health is very unrealistic, but a system whereby the health regenerates at a slow and gradual pace is closer to the real-life equivalent, where the human body gradually recovers from injuries over the course of days, weeks, months, etc. Sure there are injuries where the body's condition deteriorates faster than it can heal, but the milder cases of such injuries can be stabilised if proper medical treatment is applied. Have the healing slow-ish but boostable by using correct healing items, and you've got a better system. The limb-based health mechanic would also offer a more tactical experience; it worked in Deus Ex.[/QUOTE]The longest you spend alive in MP games is like 5-10 minutes. There's not a chance you could heal your bullet to the head wound in such a short timespan. Regeneration on the field is not realistic at all. In SP, I doubt you would like to play a hospital minigame every time you get shot.
both ways work making it more realistic invokes a new sense of strategy while having it unrealistic lets you blast away mindlessly at whatever you're shooting at
[QUOTE=General J;32921967]both ways work making it more realistic invokes a new sense of strategy while having it unrealistic lets you blast away mindlessly at whatever you're shooting at[/QUOTE] Except having it unrealistic and applying strategy most of the time grants you a win anyway. Especially in teamplay.
[QUOTE=ironman17;32921904]Sure there are injuries where the body's condition deteriorates faster than it can heal, but the milder cases of such injuries can be stabilised if proper medical treatment is applied. [/QUOTE] A gunshot wound is typically that sort of injury. Having to heal yourself or be healed rarely works in mainstream games unless it's simplified like BF2. Basically, the Firearms mod for Half Life is ideal in terms of everything that's been mentioned so far. If you get tagged badly (Which is most of the time), you'll bleed and have to bandage it, but the only way you can actually recover any health is by having a medic heal you, or doing it yourself if you are one. And this can only be done once until you respawn. Project Reality deals with health in a sort of odd way. When your health goes below a certain threshold (85% I think), you will bleed. You can use a field dressing to recover 20% but you'll still bleed if your health is still below 85%. Another feature I find lacking in many games is the complete absence of the state of incapacitation. I dislike the fact that once a number reaches 0 you're completely dead. While it may contradict my usual stance towards realism in games, it adds an extra teamwork factor when someone can be revived. In PR, if you're incapacitated you can be revived by a medic, but you only come back with 15-20% hp - At this point your vision's blurred and black and white, making you pretty much combat ineffective. The medic then has to spend time healing you back to full. If you get "killed" again within 1 minute of being revived, then you're dead and must respawn. I like this system a lot. In FA, nobody can be revived, but since the team's ability to respawn is dependent on whether there are reinforcement tickets left, medics can somewhat mitigate the reduction in tickets by finding a body and stabilising or medevacing it, depending on the medic skill level. It's a more realistic approach to the matter, but it doesn't hugely affect gameplay.
In BC2 you could defib dead bodies.
I like the way killing floor does it. shows how many bullets are left in your magazine, and if you reload you just go to the next magazine, and lose any bullets from the previous one. keeps it realistic IMO.
[QUOTE=legolover122;32922057]I like the way killing floor does it. shows how many bullets are left in your magazine, and if you reload you just go to the next magazine, and lose any bullets from the previous one. keeps it realistic IMO.[/QUOTE]Are we playing different killing floors here? Mine always keeps the bullets.
ArmA 2's ACE mod also has a good approach to healing. There are basically 3 items available: Bandages, Morphine and Epinephrine. Bandages are obvious, to stop bleeding. However, once you're shot in ArmA, depending on where you're hit your stamina and aiming will be affected. The morphine is used to counteract this. Players can be rendered unconscious but only need bandaging, but if their heart has stopped, the healing soldier must apply epinephrine to revive them. The wounds are still there however, and only medics and field hospitals are capable of restoring health. [editline]23rd October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=legolover122;32922057]I like the way killing floor does it. shows how many bullets are left in your magazine, and if you reload you just go to the next magazine, and lose any bullets from the previous one. keeps it realistic IMO.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Morbo!!!;32921660]In KF the GUI just divides the number of rounds you have by the number of rounds in a full mag. Nothing is thrown away when you reload. [/QUOTE]
I wish video games would actually take body armor into account more. the US military's ESAPI plates can take multiple hits from standard assault rifle cartridges with zero penetration. [video=youtube;TE-Yu8zLtBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE-Yu8zLtBE[/video]
[QUOTE=legolover122;32922057]I like the way killing floor does it. shows how many bullets are left in your magazine, and if you reload you just go to the next magazine, and lose any bullets from the previous one. keeps it realistic IMO.[/QUOTE] [del]You don't lose the ammo in the magazine it just shows the general amount of ammo you have left in the form of magazines but you can fire as many bullets as you've bought.[/del] Ninjas, they're fucking everywhere :tinfoil: I can't quite decide which one I like better, I'll just say bullet-based.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;32922095]ArmA 2's ACE mod also has a good approach to healing. There are basically 3 items available: Bandages, Morphine and Epinephrine. Bandages are obvious, to stop bleeding. However, once you're shot in ArmA, depending on where you're hit your stamina and aiming will be affected. The morphine is used to counteract this. Players can be rendered unconscious but only need bandaging, but if their heart has stopped, the healing soldier must apply epinephrine to revive them. The wounds are still there however, and only medics and field hospitals are capable of restoring health. [editline]23rd October 2011[/editline][/QUOTE] And such system should never make it into games like bf3 because that's not fun at all. I don't want a realistic sim, I want to shoot something. [editline]23rd October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=iFail;32922111]I wish video games would actually take body armor into account more. the US military's ESAPI plates can take multiple hits from standard assault rifle cartridges with zero penetration. [video=youtube;TE-Yu8zLtBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE-Yu8zLtBE[/video][/QUOTE] Oh god CS is so guilty of this. I never understood how armor worked there. I'd buy a vest and helmet, get shot, have 1hp and yet still have 80 armor.
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;32922114]And such system should never make it into games like bf3 because that's not fun at all. I don't want a realistic sim, I want to shoot something.[/QUOTE]I've already acknowledged that more complicated ammo and health management isn't favoured in mainstream games, I'm just stating my preferences. The three games I was on about are more obscure.
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;32922081]Are we playing different killing floors here? Mine always keeps the bullets.[/QUOTE] I was using a machine shotgun or something along those lines, and it just showed magazine count and when i reloaded my bullets in magazine would go back up, but i would lose 1 magazine. Must have been a server mod. I dont really pay too much attention to my bullet count (i mean i glance at it to see how much i have left but i dont stare at it and calculate exact bullet loss or anything...)
[QUOTE=iFail;32922111]I wish video games would actually take body armor into account more. the US military's ESAPI plates can take multiple hits from standard assault rifle cartridges with zero penetration. [video=youtube;TE-Yu8zLtBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE-Yu8zLtBE[/video][/QUOTE] Regardless of the body armour's ability to stop penetration, getting hit would still fucking hurt. Don't forget about the speed and mass of the bullet, that force is going to be transferred to the plate and then you. And also, ceramic/steel inserts only cover the front of the abdomen. There's still a good bit of surface area for a bullet to potentially strike. [editline]23rd October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=legolover122;32922163]I was using a machine shotgun or something along those lines, and it just showed magazine count and when i reloaded my bullets in magazine would go back up, but i would lose 1 magazine. Must have been a server mod. I dont really pay too much attention to my bullet count (i mean i glance at it to see how much i have left but i dont stare at it and calculate exact bullet loss or anything...)[/QUOTE] It just rounds the mag count down. If you fire one round and reload, keep doing that and you'll notice you can reload multiple times and still have the same "number" of mags. KF basically uses the round count but shows you the mag count.
Since it's programmed into my head that I should reload after using half a mag, I much prefer bullet count.
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