Retired head of the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) Lt. General Michael Flynn: Drones c
28 replies, posted
[quote][B]US President Barack Obama's former top military intelligence official has launched a scathing attack on the White House's counter-terrorism strategy[/B], including the administration's handling of the ISIL threat in Iraq and Syria and the US military's drone war.
In a forthcoming interview with Al Jazeera English's Head to Head, retired US Lt. General Michael Flynn, who quit as head of the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) in August 2014, said "there should be a different approach, absolutely" on drones.
"When you drop a bomb from a drone… you are going to cause more damage than you are going to cause good," Flynn said.
[B]Flynn was a senior intelligence officer with the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC), which is responsible for the US military's secretive and controversial drone program[/B] in countries such as Yemen and Somalia.
Asked by Al Jazeera English's Mehdi Hasan if drone strikes tend to create more terrorists than they kill, Flynn, who has been described by Wired magazine as "the real father of the modern JSOC", replied: "I don't disagree with that", adding: "I think as an overarching strategy, it is a failed strategy."
"What we have is this continued investment in conflict," the retired general said. [B]"The more weapons we give, the more bombs we drop, that just… fuels the conflict. Some of that has to be done but I am looking for the other solutions."[/B]
Commenting on the rise of ISIL in Iraq, Flynn acknowledged the role played by the US invasion and occupation of Iraq. [B]"We definitely put fuel on a fire," he told Hasan. "Absolutely… there is no doubt, history will not be kind to the decisions that were made certainly in 2003."[/B]
[B]"Going into Iraq, definitely… it was a strategic mistake,"[/B] said Flynn on Head to Head.
The former lieutenant general denied any involvement in the litany of abuses carried out by JSOC interrogators at Camp Nama in Iraq, as revealed by the New York Times and Human Rights Watch, but admitted the US prison system in Iraq in the post-war period "absolutely" helped radicalise Iraqis who later joined Al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) and its successor organisation, ISIL.[/quote]
[url]http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/retired-general-drones-damage-good-150716105352708.html[/url]
Its like the pentagon has an attention span and fortitude of a child. Not to be 'that guy' but i've been saying this exact thing for years. How can you bomb a country and not expect its people to be pissed off that you killed their entire family in a drone strike, it's like no fucking shit that we have an even bigger problem on our hands.
Retired head of the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) Lt. General Michael Flynn: Grass Confirmed Green, Sky is Blue
Doesn't take the head of the DIA to know that Iraq was a "mistake" at the least.
[QUOTE=draugur;48230330]Retired head of the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) Lt. General Michael Flynn: Grass Confirmed Green, Sky is Blue
Doesn't take the head of the DIA to know that Iraq was a "mistake" at the least.[/QUOTE]
Given some rhetoric by some Congressmen, I think it in fact takes more than the head of the DIA to get them to realize it.
You mean we can't solve all middle East problems with high explosives?
Well damn, glad someone actually realized what the rest of us already knew... Of course, given some of the people in Congress, etc, it's no surprise this had to be said. They think if we continue, the terrorists will stop, and the people will out the terrorists and everything will be ok. In reality the terrorists use the drone strikes as a recruitment tool, and it is very effective. The Iraq War indirectly lead to the formation of ISIS, and other groups in the area, while us clandestinely helping rebel groups also backfired, like it does EVERY SINGLE TIME, and fucked up the region even more. More reasons for us to stay the fuck out of the region. Or at least listen to people who have common sense solutions to problems in the middle east...
[QUOTE=Sableye;48238709]You mean we can't solve all middle East problems with high explosives?[/QUOTE]
well we can just that there is for whatever reason still a tabu on just nuking them so unless we go that high explosive no they cant fix the problems
[QUOTE=k2.;48238892]well we can just that there is for whatever reason still a tabu on just nuking them so unless we go that high explosive no they cant fix the problems[/QUOTE]
If you're ever getting that angst feeling just turn off you're computer
[QUOTE=k2.;48238892]well we can just that there is for whatever reason still a tabu on just nuking them so unless we go that high explosive no they cant fix the problems[/QUOTE]
that would solve exactly 0 problems, and create a slew of new ones that would quite possibly [B]never[/B] be solved. but hey at least we dun nuked dem der' towel heads right? :vs:
[QUOTE=k2.;48238892]well we can just that there is for whatever reason still a tabu on just nuking them so unless we go that high explosive no they cant fix the problems[/QUOTE]
But then you've pissed off the rest of the world. The problem is now much bigger.
[QUOTE=k2.;48238892]well we can just that there is for whatever reason still a tabu on just nuking them so unless we go that high explosive no they cant fix the problems[/QUOTE]
Let's just kill millions of people and make an entire region uninhabitable. As well as glassing the cradle of human civilization.
I can see no problem with this plan.
Guys I feel like k2. was joking. Sorta hunch there.
i swear the condescending replies taking k2 seriously are worse than the joke he made in the first place
[QUOTE=DeathDoom;48239595]i swear the condescending replies taking k2 seriously are worse than the joke he made in the first place[/QUOTE]
maybe he should have made his joke funny. or since its not funny, he should have said it was a joke. literally anything other than posting something people actually believe and say.
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;48239393]Let's just kill millions of people and make an entire region uninhabitable. As well as glassing the cradle of human civilization.
I can see no problem with this plan.[/QUOTE]
Well I've met people who actually believe this. Pretty hardcore with the[I] us or them[/I] mindset.
[QUOTE=draugur;48230330]Retired head of the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) Lt. General Michael Flynn: Grass Confirmed Green, Sky is Blue[/QUOTE]
Sky is blue and full of drones.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;48240347]maybe he should have made his joke funny. or since its not funny, he should have said it was a joke. literally anything other than posting something people actually believe and say.[/QUOTE]
oh don't get me wrong it was an awful joke and i get that sarcasm doesn't transfer well over text but if you guys weren't so eager to tell somebody what a dumb moron they are then you'd be able to tell that was a joke
Flynn has [url=http://www.cnas.org/files/documents/publications/AfghanIntel_Flynn_Jan2010_code507_voices.pdf]openly said for years[/url] that using drones as the be-all and end-all of counter-insurgency strategies is not an effective solution because it's reactionary and not sufficiently proactive. He was behind the DIA's [url=http://www.themilitant.com/2012/7647/764704.html]push to deploy more human intelligence collection officers[/url] to supplement the CIA's HUMINT operations, under DOD auspices. But as far as I know he has never before said that drones are counterproductive altogether. Either he's had a radical change of heart, or those ellipses:
[quote]"When you drop a bomb from a drone[b]…[/b] you are going to cause more damage than you are going to cause good," Flynn said.[/quote]
are omitting some conditional statement, which seems more likely considering this quote:
[quote]"The more weapons we give, the more bombs we drop, that just… fuels the conflict. [b]Some of that has to be done[/b] but I am looking for the other solutions."[/quote]
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that he's probably not actually saying what is being reported here, but other news websites are eating this up. I guess we'll find out when the actual interview comes out.
What about airstrikes from manned planes? There's literally no difference, both cause collateral damage.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;48241361]It's much easier to fire a missile when you're playing a videogame 5000 miles away.[/QUOTE]
I fail to see a significant difference between seeing a man getting blown up on a small black and white display in the back of an F/A-18 vs a small black and white display in a tent at some airbase.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;48241361]It's much easier to fire a missile when you're playing a videogame 5000 miles away.[/QUOTE]
A Hellfire strike isn't a spur-of-the-moment decision. It's planned in advance, by someone not flying the plane, in either case. The main difference between the two is that a drone can loiter on-station and better determine whether or not a possible target is indeed a threat, whereas the best you can do with a JDAM strike is have someone on-site give a go/no-go call to the pilot, so if anything the drone operator has a much better idea of what he's doing, and a drone's camera feed can be routed up the chain of command to make a decision. Drones have consistently had far lower rates of collateral damage than conventional airstrikes, because the pilot can see whether or not a strike is justified and 'clean' before making it, and their direct superiors can be watching and deciding along with them.
The accusations leveled against drone strikes are common to most air power. As much as pundits and media groups like to say drone strikes are a new and troublesome technology turning killing into a game yadda yadda, most military analysts see them as just another kind of air strike, and the problem is more with using air strikes because they're available and convenient when other approaches might be ideal. We have to use the right tool for the right job, and drone strikes will never win hearts and minds or recruit assets.
Lt. General Michael Hindsight
You know it really is frustrating how often it seems we get these former officials who come out criticizing the administration. Any time they come out on TV taking swings at their former employers it makes me think they're trying to reconcile their conscience against the fact that they didn't do the right thing when they were in a position to do it.
This is why we need sniper drones, instead of massive collateral damage, you know what you're killing and your specific with it. We've already got a gun that can aim itself;
[video=youtube_share;YBC8IFWC1P0]http://youtu.be/YBC8IFWC1P0[/video]
Now we just need to put it on a drone and make it remote operable, tell it who EXACTLY to aim for and bang, we're good. And if automation is a worry in cases of friendly fire or whatever, just make it remote controlled and fired instead.
I don't know why we haven't done this already. A sniper is much more selective than artillery or airstrike, or what else. I don't know why people hate snipers so much.
[QUOTE=TheNerdPest14;48242842]This is why we need sniper drones, instead of massive collateral damage, you know what you're killing and your specific with it. We've already got a gun that can aim itself;
[video=youtube_share;YBC8IFWC1P0]http://youtu.be/YBC8IFWC1P0[/video]
Now we just need to put it on a drone and make it remote operable, tell it who EXACTLY to aim for and bang, we're good. And if automation is a worry in cases of friendly fire or whatever, just make it remote controlled and fired instead.
I don't know why we haven't done this already. A sniper is much more selective than artillery or airstrike, or what else. I don't know why people hate snipers so much.[/QUOTE]
The title of that video always makes me cringe. It's just a big computerized scope that compensates for distance and movement. It CANNOT compensate for wind in the same way, which is part of the reason why TrackingPoint is out of buisness now.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;48241361]It's much easier to fire a missile when you're playing a videogame 5000 miles away.[/QUOTE]
Bullshit reasoning, if the Air Force had even the slightest doubt in their Pilot's ability to do his job, he wouldn't be on the flight that's doing the bombing.
[QUOTE=Apache249;48241416]I fail to see a significant difference between seeing a man getting blown up on a small black and white display in the back of an F/A-18 vs a small black and white display in a tent at some airbase.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.gq.com/story/drone-uav-pilot-assassination[/url]
He does.
And the people in the areas bombed do and frankly that's all that is important.
[editline]20th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;48248673]Bullshit reasoning, if the Air Force had even the slightest doubt in their Pilot's ability to do his job, he wouldn't be on the flight that's doing the bombing.[/QUOTE]
You know this is wrong.
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/23/us/drone-pilots-found-to-get-stress-disorders-much-as-those-in-combat-do.html?_r=0[/url]
[editline]20th July 2015[/editline]
[url]http://www.npr.org/2011/12/19/143926857/report-high-levels-of-burnout-in-u-s-drone-pilots[/url]
[QUOTE=Killuah;48252356][url]http://www.gq.com/story/drone-uav-pilot-assassination[/url]
He does.
And the people in the areas bombed do and frankly that's all that is important.
You know this is wrong.
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/23/us/drone-pilots-found-to-get-stress-disorders-much-as-those-in-combat-do.html?_r=0[/url]
[editline]20th July 2015[/editline]
[url]http://www.npr.org/2011/12/19/143926857/report-high-levels-of-burnout-in-u-s-drone-pilots[/url][/QUOTE]
RichyZ was implying that drone pilots kill innocents easily because they're detached from the killing, and you're replying to people who disagreed, but providing articles that basically support their point. Both drone operators and conventional pilots do largely the same tasks and have a similarly close association with their actions. The idea that drone pilots don't care and treat it like a videogame is pretty much blown out of the water by the incidence of PTSD and related issues.
Of course it is. It's not easier for the guys carrying it out. It's easier for the guys giving the order to do Drone strikes.
But it's different for the people being bombed. It's a different thing to think that there is a plane up there or that there is a remote controlled robot up there.
It invokes terror and people respond with terror.
[QUOTE=Killuah;48252588]Of course it is. It's not easier for the guys carrying it out. It's easier for the guys giving the order to do Drone strikes.[/QUOTE]
But that's not what we were talking about, and you know it. We responded to
[QUOTE=RichyZ;48241361]It's much easier to fire a missile when you're playing a videogame 5000 miles away.[/QUOTE]
I said
[QUOTE=Apache249;48241416]I fail to see a significant difference between seeing a man getting blown up on a small black and white display in the back of an F/A-18 vs a small black and white display in a tent at some airbase.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Killuah;48252356][URL]http://www.gq.com/story/drone-uav-pilot-assassination[/URL]
He does.[/QUOTE]
Actually, he it seems he doesn't. You must not have expected anyone to read your article, because [I]not once[/I] does it compare the drones to conventionally piloted aircraft. Do you even read the posts you respond to?
[QUOTE]And the people in the areas bombed do and frankly that's all that is important.[/QUOTE]
And you know this from... experience? Please find me a source stating that people being bombed can tell whether it's coming from an MQ-9 or an Apache.
[quote]But it's different for the people being bombed. It's a different thing to think that there is a plane up there or that there is a remote controlled robot up there.
It invokes terror and people respond with terror.[/quote]
Once again, I'm going to need a source on all of this. How is it different, exactly? Both platforms are going to be at high altitude or many miles away. You're most likely not going to hear either one when it fires at you.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;48248673]Bullshit reasoning, if the Air Force had even the slightest doubt in their Pilot's ability to do his job, he wouldn't be on the flight that's doing the bombing.[/QUOTE]
[Quote]You know this is wrong.
[URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/23/us/drone-pilots-found-to-get-stress-disorders-much-as-those-in-combat-do.html?_r=0[/URL]
[editline]20th July 2015[/editline]
[URL]http://www.npr.org/2011/12/19/143926857/report-high-levels-of-burnout-in-u-s-drone-pilots[/URL][/QUOTE]
He was talking about the pilots of conventional aircraft, but somehow you've proven him wrong with two articles which focus only on drone pilots/operators and [I]completely fail[/I][I] to address his statement.[/I] Either you don't read your own sources, or you're trying to pull a fast one and feed us some bullshit.
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