I like playing video games for the gameplay and story. I could care less about what race or gender my character is unless it's directly tied to the narrative.
I mean anything that strays away from the "crew cut white man looking menacingly in front of him" kind of main characters is a welcome change. Diversity in general is a plus, not just when it's about race/gender/sexual orientation or whatever but also in terms of story, environment, characters. As long as it doesn't feel forced or out of place at least.
I'd bet many companies base their protagonists off of analytics of their audience.
[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52991114]I'd bet many companies base their protagonists off of analytics of their audience.[/QUOTE]
I doubt the majority of gamers are buff like your typical protagonist.
Fuck off bringing this shit into my games. I don't give a fuck about social politics, I just want to play a damn game.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52991079]I mean anything that strays away from the "crew cut white man looking menacingly in front of him" kind of main characters is a welcome change. Diversity in general is a plus, not just when it's about race/gender/sexual orientation or whatever but also in terms of story, environment, characters. As long as it doesn't feel forced or out of place at least.[/QUOTE]
Crew-cuts and hypertrophy have been out of style for years. It's all about the grizzled middle-aged men now.
[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52991114]I'd bet many companies base their protagonists off of analytics of their audience.[/QUOTE]
where are my sweaty overweight protagonists?
[QUOTE=orcywoo6;52991251]Fuck off bringing this shit into my games. I don't give a fuck about social politics, I just want to play a damn game.[/QUOTE]
Why are you so angry if you don't give a fuck?
Like most of these things it's not directly relating to the industry itself, it falls back on a societal problem of low key racism that's persisted for hundreds of years that's not entirely addressed, a low income family[URL="http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2015/working-poor-families.aspx"] (which, sadly, is statistically black or Hispanic)[/URL] which are less likely to have a child that ends up in a STEM field which doesn't increase diversity. The same applies to female protags and underlying systematic sexism that still persists.
I think it's something designers should be aware of when producing their games - it's surprisingly what kind of influence it might have on younger children playing a protagonist of a different race or gender.
[QUOTE=artDecor;52991291]Why are you so angry if you don't give a fuck?[/QUOTE]
Its tiring when it seems like devs are more worried about being political than making a good game.
[QUOTE=Cmx;52991316]Its tiring when it seems like devs are more worried about being political than making a good game.[/QUOTE]
Except that's never the case, just because they make a character black, or are focused on giving even representation or diverse characters does't mean they intrinsically produce a worse game. It shows they're trying to diversify or choose a character that isn't mr gruff 5 o'clock shadow white man!! The same amount of time and effort that goes into designing Mr. Paco Rabanne will likely be the same amount of effort that creates a completely different character.
You have straight up confirmation bias on really awful games that also happened to have diverse elements, Andromeda comes to mind. But how many other A Class titles with a diverse cast that turned out well have you complained about? Probably none, but for some reason you want to place certain game's failures on it trying to be progressive rather than it being a bad game?
[QUOTE=ZombieDawgs;52991324]Except that's never the case, just because they make a character black, or are focused on giving even representation or diverse characters does't mean they intrinsically produce a worse game. It shows they're trying to diversify or choose a character that isn't mr gruff 5 o'clock shadow white man!! The same amount of time and effort that goes into designing Mr. Paco Rabanne will likely be the same amount of effort that creates a completely different character.
You have straight up confirmation bias on really awful games that also happened to have diverse elements, Andromeda comes to mind. But how many other A Class titles with a diverse cast that turned out well have you complained about? Probably none, but for some reason you want to place certain game's failures on it being progressive rather than it being a bad game?[/QUOTE]
I can't think of a way to word this without it seeming like an argument, but what are some excellent games that have had a diverse cast? I'm not keeping up with the new games so I don't know one way or the other.
[QUOTE=Darth_Toast;52991333]I can't think of a way to word this without it seeming like an argument, but what are some excellent games that have had a diverse cast? [B]I'm not keeping up with the new games so I don't know one way or the other.[/B][/QUOTE]
You and me both, but I do have an idea on a handful of games that could be classed as "good and diverse": Left 4 Dead 2, Wolfenstein 2, Overwatch, Uncharted: The Lost Legacy.
Probably a few others, but honestly the pickings are slim; which isn't a good thing. I'm sure if you find some bad game that also have a diverse cast their issues for messing up the game wouldn't boil down to "trying to be progressive"
[QUOTE=ZombieDawgs;52991324][B]Except that's never the case, just because they make a character black, or are focused on giving even representation or diverse characters does't mean they intrinsically produce a worse game.[/B] It shows they're trying to diversify or choose a character that isn't mr gruff 5 o'clock shadow white man!! The same amount of time and effort that goes into designing Mr. Paco Rabanne will likely be the same amount of effort that creates a completely different character.
You have straight up confirmation bias on really awful games that also happened to have diverse elements, Andromeda comes to mind. But how many other A Class titles with a diverse cast that turned out well have you complained about? Probably none, but for some reason you want to place certain game's failures on it trying to be progressive rather than it being a bad game?[/QUOTE]
Hey remember when Mafia 3 wasnt about the mafia and was [url=https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/nnk7b8/we-talked-race-and-politics-with-the-senior-writer-of-mafia-iii]just about some black guy because diversity and racism?[/url]
[QUOTE=Cmx;52991358]Hey remember when Mafia 3 wasnt about the mafia and was [url=https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/nnk7b8/we-talked-race-and-politics-with-the-senior-writer-of-mafia-iii]just about some black guy because diversity and racism?[/url][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]In the previous Mafia games, players are part of the Italian mob. But in Mafia III you shift to an oppositional perspective, where the player is seeing the story from the view of the criminal groups that are going up against the mob. That seems tricky. When players pick up a game that says Mafia III on the cover, they probably think they're going to get a game where they play as the Italian Mafia. Do you think there's a risk of losing some players with different expectations?
[B]
I don't think that's a risk, because we are telling a Mafia story[/B].[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Miruku;52991299]I know this is a joke but man to this day one of the neatest things I've seen out of the GTA series is the fact that CJ from San Andreas can actually get fat.[/QUOTE]
The neatest thing is that this actually affects the game and the world around you, unlike games such as skyrim where NPCs will treat you like a baby regardless, with maybe one or two scripted dialogues after a sequence, but eventually falling to trash talking you.
Aggressively 'not caring' is an easy position to take when you are a white man. White guys are fortunate enough to live in a reality where their race and their sex doesn't appear to matter at all. Because most things, ESPECIALLY in video games, are pretty much tailor made for that kind of person.
The people who claim not to care tend to also show how much they really do care because they get the most angry about it. If you really didn't care then why are you whining about it so much? Someone who 'doesn't care' will react to Star Wars having a black and female lead with "Eh, sure. As long as the storytelling is good." Not bitching and moaning on the internet about it. I mean imagine if every movie from now on started featuring Chinese people in the majority of roles. Every movie just happens to star Asians and some have nothing but Asians. You would probably start to get annoyed! And now you're starting to understand how other races feel when they see me and my honkey ass hogging the majority of media for eternity.
There's a really good comic that I wish I had on hand because it illustrates it perfectly, in which two guys are focusing on this one female focused bit of media and complaining about how they're having diversity shoved down their throats, only to pan out and see them completely surrounded by white male focused media.
Here's a thought that I think a lot of people don't get; not every game has to be made for you. You don't have to like everything. Gaming does not exist to please just [I]you[/I]. Something is not bad because you don't like it.
That sounds like an easy statement to accept, and yet [I]every fucking time[/I] we have a game that focuses on something that isn't something the general white guy demo can click with instantly, like a story about lesbians or hipsters or just people who aren't fucking white or male, in comes a [I]tsunami[/I] of white guys angry that this game appeals to [I]anyone else[/I] but them. Hey, geniuses, if you don't want to play a game about lesbians, you don't have to play it or even think about it. Go play the other 95 percent of video games that are for you.
[t]https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/ikkji5f4cfrqpfb0xmok.jpg[/t]
95 percent is fucking generous might I add
Also how about these people stfu and start making games?
[QUOTE=Medevila;52991398]projecting much[/QUOTE]
Not really, if you mean me assuming your opinion. I mean maybe you personally wouldn't give a shit but considering how little a lot of white guys can handle ONE major film having a black main character, or a woman main character, I can easily imagine how much people would lose their fucking minds if most movies were like that for even just a year.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52991380]
[t]https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/ikkji5f4cfrqpfb0xmok.jpg[/t] [/QUOTE]
To play devil's advocate, short-haired white guy is probably the lowest common denominator for people playing those games. It's the blank canvas for players to project themselves onto.
Not that it's impossible for a white guy to sympathize with a black lesbian woman, but statistically more players won't be bothered by the main character's appearance if they look like that.
Safer = more money.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52991380]Aggressively 'not caring' is an easy position to take when you are a white man. White guys are fortunate enough to live in a reality where their race and their sex doesn't appear to matter at all. Because most things, ESPECIALLY in video games, are pretty much tailor made for that kind of person.
The people who claim not to care tend to also show how much they really do care because they get the most angry about it. If you really didn't care then why are you whining about it so much? Someone who 'doesn't care' will react to Star Wars having a black and female lead with "Eh, sure. As long as the storytelling is good." Not bitching and moaning on the internet about it. I mean imagine if every movie from now on started featuring Chinese people in the majority of roles. Every movie just happens to star Asians and some have nothing but Asians. You would probably start to get annoyed! And now you're starting to understand how other races feel when they see me and my honkey ass hogging the majority of media for eternity.
There's a really good comic that I wish I had on hand because it illustrates it perfectly, in which two guys are focusing on this one female focused bit of media and complaining about how they're having diversity shoved down their throats, only to pan out and see them completely surrounded by white male focused media.
Here's a thought that I think a lot of people don't get; not every game has to be made for you. You don't have to like everything. Gaming does not exist to please just [I]you[/I]. Something is not bad because you don't like it.
That sounds like an easy statement to accept, and yet [I]every fucking time[/I] we have a game that focuses on something that isn't something the general white guy demo can click with instantly, like a story about lesbians or hipsters or just people who aren't fucking white or male, in comes a [I]tsunami[/I] of white guys angry that this game appeals to [I]anyone else[/I] but them. Hey, geniuses, if you don't want to play a game about lesbians, you don't have to play it or even think about it. Go play the other 95 percent of video games that are for you.
[t]https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/ikkji5f4cfrqpfb0xmok.jpg[/t]
95 percent is fucking generous might I add[/QUOTE]
where is Adam Jensen? is he too sexy for that list? cuz I think he is.
[QUOTE=milktree;52991409]where is Adam Jensen? is he too sexy for that list?[/QUOTE]
Adam Jensen can't be on that list, he's disabled. /s
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52991380]
[t]https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/ikkji5f4cfrqpfb0xmok.jpg[/t]
[/QUOTE]
This is incredibly nit picky and I agree with you entirely but I find it a bit odd they included Michael from GTA on this despite there also being a black lead.
Truthfully yes I can see this being a huge issue overall for anyone who is non-white - not really associating as much with lead characters when a majority of popular titles feature white leads. It's slowly shifting but not as quickly as it should. This applies to both race and gender.
There have definitely been a ton more female roles overall at least which is great. But off the top of my head I can barely think of any major roles this year that featured anyone of color. Assassins Creed Origins and, if you want to count it, Death of the Outsider.
[QUOTE=Segab;52991408]To play devil's advocate, short-haired white guy is probably the lowest common denominator for people playing those games. It's the blank canvas for players to project themselves onto.
Not that it's impossible for a white guy to sympathize with a black lesbian woman, but statistically more players won't be bothered by the main character's appearance if they look like that.
Safer = more money.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and if you're a cold hearted businessman, that makes sense. But if we all adopted that kind of belief system then nobody would make anything but pop music and movies would all be even more samey than they are now. Not everything needs to have the broadest appeal. And besides, properties like Star Wars and shitty ass Assassin's Creed have proven that it's not as much of a deal breaker as people make it out to be.
I think it kind of depends on how they handle any of it and whether or not its being preachy and/or obnoxious. Off the top of my head i can think of Mass Effect Andromeda (ignoring all of its other flaws for a second) that has that one character you can talk to who from videos i remember seeing can be boiled down to "hello my name is Space Trans, i am trans and also in space, aint that some shit?"
Compare it to stuff like Metal Gear which is gay as fuck, or GTA SA where the main cast is mostly inner city black gangbangers, or Metroid where you play as a woman, but nobody seems to mind at all.
I also just think more games need to let you create your own unique character, where the problem no longer exists.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;52991414]I think it kind of depends on how they handle any of it and whether or not its being preachy and/or obnoxious. Off the top of my head i can think of Mass Effect Andromeda (ignoring all of its other flaws for a second) that has that one character you can talk to who from videos i remember seeing can be boiled down to "hello my name is Space Trans, i am trans and also in space, aint that some shit?"
Compare it to stuff like Metal Gear which is gay as fuck, or GTA SA where the main cast is mostly inner city black gangbangers, or Metroid where you play as a woman, but nobody seems to mind at all.[/QUOTE]
Oh sure, I agree, but people jump the gun way too much and accuse any medium of pushing that kind of narrative when it just, has those characters. Like TFA was immediately deemed SJW schlock when not once in the movie do they make a point of the main characters being minorities. Neither do they in the new one.
And, it can be easily confused between between preachy and obnoxious and making a legitimate point. A lot of media is made to make a point or push a certain point of view. Like Get Out, a movie who's main point was that obvious bigotry is not the only form of racism and that there are still a lot of unacceptable and uncomfortable things white people who [I]think[/I] they're being accepting do.
Racism, sexism, transgenderism, depression, so on, are all things that can be and deserve to be talked about as the main subject of a story. Including video games. Some characters in other stories can exist solely to make a point about those subjects the same way any character can be a metaphor or exist to prove some other point. Now, that doesn't mean beat you over the head examples don't exist and aren't obnoxious, but honestly, the big problem there isn't 'forced diversity' as much as it is just plain old bad writing.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52991380]That sounds like an easy statement to accept, and yet [I]every fucking time[/I] we have a game that focuses on something that isn't something the general white guy demo can click with instantly, like a story about lesbians or hipsters or just people who aren't fucking white or male, in comes a [I]tsunami[/I] of white guys angry that this game appeals to [I]anyone else[/I] but them. Hey, geniuses, if you don't want to play a game about lesbians, you don't have to play it or even think about it. Go play the other 95 percent of video games that are for you.
[t]https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/ikkji5f4cfrqpfb0xmok.jpg[/t]
95 percent is fucking generous might I add[/QUOTE]
I actually go out of my way to play games like Night in the Woods and what not, whatever is built that challenges my views and I'd love to see more variety in games, but for this to happen people need to actually develop games rather than moan about there not being enough of them, and people need to actually buy and support the devs going out of their way to build such experiences.
Point is, I have no idea why people give so much weight to the voices of people who are so easily offended they can't see a movie about a woman/black man/etc kicking ass.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52991431]Oh sure, I agree, but people jump the gun way too much and accuse any medium of pushing that kind of narrative when it just, has those characters. Like TFA was immediately deemed SJW schlock when not once in the movie do they make a point of the main characters being minorities. Neither do they in the new one.
And, it can be easily confused between between preachy and obnoxious and making a legitimate point. A lot of media is made to make a point or push a certain point of view. Like Get Out, a movie who's main point was that obvious bigotry is not the only form of racism and that there are still a lot of unacceptable and uncomfortable things white people who [I]think[/I] they're being accepting do.
Racism, sexism, transgenderism, depression, so on, are all things that can be and deserve to be talked about as the main subject of a story. Including video games. Some characters in other stories can exist solely to make a point about those subjects the same way any character can be a metaphor or exist to prove some other point. Now, that doesn't mean beat you over the head examples don't exist and aren't obnoxious, but honestly, the big problem there isn't 'forced diversity' as much as it is just plain old bad writing.[/QUOTE]
hellblade is a great example of great writing, great female lead, and interesting depictions of mental illness.
Developers clearly can make complex games - but most publishers tend to play it safe.
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