Democratic lawmakers introduce bill to ban conversion therapy nationwide - Polidicks

[quote] This week, Democratic lawmakers introduced the Therapeutic Fraud Prevention Act of 2017, which will ban treatments nationwide that target the LGBTQ community and claim to be able to change an individual's sexual orientation or gender identity. The treatment, which is often referred to as conversion therapy, has received lots of criticism from LGBTQ rights groups and mental and medical health organizations. In an October 2015 report by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, conversion therapy is referred to as a treatment that "perpetuates outdated views of gender roles and identities as well as the negative stereotype that being a sexual or gender minority or identifying as LGBTQ is an abnormal aspect of human development." Conversion therapy advocates heartened by Republican electoral victories Undercover at a so-called gay conversion camp The bill, which was introduced on April 25, isn't the first attempt Democratic lawmakers have made to try and ban the idea that members of the LGBTQ community need treatment for their sexual orientation. On Feb. 6, 2016, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo announced executive actions banning public and private health care insurers in the state of New York from covering conversation therapy. "We will not allow the misguided and the intolerant to punish LGBT young people for simply being who they are," Cuomo said in a press release. Former first daughter Chelsea Clinton also tweeted out her support for the conversion therapy ban, calling it "child abuse by another name." [/quote] [url]http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/democratic-lawmakers-introduce-bill-ban-conversion-therapy-nationwide/story?id=47087995[/url]

Please let it pass...

Good, ban it. It's torture and evil. It must be removed.

And if it fails to pass, those who prevented its passing should probably be exposed publically, due to being a very tangible threat to humanity.

Let people do what they want if it's not hurting anyone else. Conversion "therapy," is a disease that needs to be eradicated.

At best it's a fraud. At worst it's torture. This type of shit should definitely be regulated.

I thought the US constitution already had a thing about not allowing cruel and unusual punishment.

Diffently about time something was finally done . It's plain God damn torture with no basis to it all.

With the GOP holding a strong majority, it seems unlikely. Just a reminder that the vice president, Mike Pence, supports conversion therapy -- including electroshock.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52168537]With the GOP holding a strong majority, it seems unlikely. Just a reminder that the vice president, Mike Pence, supports conversion therapy -- including electroshock.[/QUOTE] Actually it's not certain whether he does or not. He's still an anti-LGBT prick but [URL="http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2016/dec/02/gavin-newsom/pences-support-conversion-therapy-not-settled-matt/"]according to Politifact it's a bit up in the air.[/URL] Of course, he's never explicitly come out against it and it is clear he dislikes LGBT people so...

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52168537]With the GOP holding a strong majority, it seems unlikely. Just a reminder that the vice president, Mike Pence, supports conversion therapy [B]-- including electroshock.[/B][/QUOTE] Gonna have to take you to one side on Electroconvulsive therapy. The name does conjure horrible images of 40's/50's psychiatric wards where patients are treated like animals and rights and welfare were generally held to poor standard BUT in practise it IS actually an effective treatment for several very serious mental health problems. Most notably it is a treatment of last resort for suicidal depression, in any and ALL cases it should require informed consent of the patient. [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroconvulsive_therapy#Medical_use"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroconvulsive_therapy#Medical_use[/URL] The treatments may seem "barbaric" and backward but they actually work when little else does. Just because Mike [I]"Herr Commandant"[/I] Pence is using it in his pseudo medical religious bullshit does not mean you should discount it. On another note, if someone is gay and really REALLY wishes they were not, and of their own volition as opposed to pressure from peers, should they not have access to therapy to help them as such? Like if they are genuinely miserable due to the fact that they are attracted to the same sex?

[QUOTE=thisguy123;52168815]On another note, if someone is gay and really REALLY wishes they were not, and of their own volition as opposed to pressure from peers, should they not have access to therapy to help them as such? Like if they are genuinely miserable due to the fact that they are attracted to the same sex?[/QUOTE] Yes, but this is far from how gay conversion therapy is practiced and applied. Instead, it's more about torturing teens until they stop being "different" and toe the line on a moral code straight out of the 50s. Someone making an informed decision to seek counselling because they are uncomfortable with their sexual preferences is a galaxy apart from sending your gay kid to Abuse Camp.

[QUOTE=thisguy123;52168815]On another note, if someone is gay and really REALLY wishes they were not, and of their own volition as opposed to pressure from peers, should they not have access to therapy to help them as such? Like if they are genuinely miserable due to the fact that they are attracted to the same sex?[/QUOTE] Therapy should help them come to terms and accept it since it is an irrefutable part of yourself and to merely hide it and live a miserable lie is significantly worse

[QUOTE=thisguy123;52168815]Gonna have to take you to one side on Electroconvulsive therapy. The name does conjure horrible images of 40's/50's psychiatric wards where patients are treated like animals and rights and welfare were generally held to poor standard BUT in practise it IS actually an effective treatment for several very serious mental health problems. Most notably it is a treatment of last resort for suicidal depression, in any and ALL cases it should require informed consent of the patient. [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroconvulsive_therapy#Medical_use"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroconvulsive_therapy#Medical_use[/URL] The treatments may seem "barbaric" and backward but they actually work when little else does. Just because Mike [I]"Herr Commandant"[/I] Pence is using it in his pseudo medical religious bullshit does not mean you should discount it. On another note, if someone is gay and really REALLY wishes they were not, and of their own volition as opposed to pressure from peers, should they not have access to therapy to help them as such? Like if they are genuinely miserable due to the fact that they are attracted to the same sex?[/QUOTE] I'll read on up on electroconvulsive therapy on your recommendation, but regardless of its efficacy for mental illness, homosexuality is NOT a mental illness. To answer the question posed at the end of your post: that depends on what kind of therapy you're talking about. You cannot [I]stop[/I] being a homosexual. It's not a decision or a choice. So, any "therapy" intended to [I]reverse[/I] or [I]cancel[/I] homosexuality is only going to cause [B]more[/B] psychological damage to the subject by instilling an even deeper sense of shame and alienation. Thus, such "therapy" should be illegal. It is in violation of the medical code of ethics. However, therapy intended to help struggling homosexual people come to terms with who they are is nothing but a positive. Break down the shame and the alienation and replace it with self-acceptance. That should be the goal of therapy for self-loathing homosexuals, and it should be readily available for those who need it.

[QUOTE=Louis;52168883]Therapy should help them come to terms and accept it since it is an [B]irrefutable[/B] part of yourself and to merely hide it and live a miserable lie is significantly worse[/QUOTE] Personally I would not be so quick to say such things when our understanding of the mind is so limited, but I do agree that whatever Pence is advocating is the wrong way to go about it. There might be edge cases where someone with a traumatic or unfortunate upbringing wasn't able to develop a proper sexual identity and would need psychiatric help and therapy to resolve these issues.

[QUOTE=thisguy123;52169122] There might be edge cases where someone with a traumatic or unfortunate upbringing wasn't able to develop a proper sexual identity and would need psychiatric help and therapy to resolve these issues.[/QUOTE] What does that have to do with being gay?

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52169142]What does that have to do with being gay?[/QUOTE] An improperly developed sexual identity might manifest in way that outwardly appears to be gay but is just a misplaced hatred of women due to an abusive mother.

[QUOTE=thisguy123;52169202]An improperly developed sexual identity might manifest in way that outwardly appears to be gay but is just a misplaced hatred of women due to an abusive mother.[/QUOTE] That is horseshit. That's not how that works at all.

[QUOTE=thisguy123;52169202]An improperly developed sexual identity might manifest in way that outwardly appears to be gay but is just a misplaced hatred of women due to an abusive mother.[/QUOTE] Can you cite any cases of this actually happening? Abusive parents, especially sexually abusive parents, can do a hell of a number on a child's psychological condition. You can end up with violent sexual predators, child molesters, and even killers. I've never once heard of a case where a sexually abused child has "turned gay," however. Homosexuality is not a byproduct of abuse. I mean, again: if you're simply saying that therapy should be available to help people work through sexual identity problems, then of course it should. If you're saying that the medical community should tolerate conversion "therapy" geared towards reversing homosexuality, however? Hell no.

[QUOTE=thisguy123;52169202]An improperly developed sexual identity might manifest in way that outwardly appears to be gay but is just a misplaced hatred of women due to an abusive mother.[/QUOTE] [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3535560/[/url] you may want to try reading it and understanding at least the gist of the study. The bottom line is that it's a huge can of worms, whether maltreatment influences sexuality or vice versa, but nowhere does it say anything about misplaced hatred as a potential cause.

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52166384]Please let it pass...[/QUOTE] Why? If a person is for social justice and supports this passing, they are invalidating the rest of their ideology. Conversion therapy is based on the idea a person can be changed via social engineering (in this case shock therapy) and a person chooses to be gay or not. Opponents of conversion therapy are stating gay people are born that way. The entire premise of social justice (including political correctness) is based on the idea people are not born a certain way. Its based on the tabula rasa (blank slate) concept and thus can be corrected via social engineering methods. If one says one is born gay and must end conversion therapy, they are saying tabula rasa is false, thus saying the entire premise social justice and political correctness is based on is false as well. Pick one.

[QUOTE=Guriosity;52169862]Why? If a person is for social justice and supports this passing, they are invalidating the rest of their ideology. Conversion therapy is based on the idea a person can be changed via social engineering (in this case shock therapy) and a person chooses to be gay or not. Opponents of conversion therapy are stating gay people are born that way. The entire premise of social justice (including political correctness) is based on the idea people are not born a certain way. Its based on the tabula rasa (blank slate) concept and thus can be corrected via social engineering methods. If one says one is born gay and must end conversion therapy, they are saying tabula rasa is false. Pick one.[/QUOTE] Conversion therapy doesn't work and actively damages people. It should be banned to prevent people being victims to it - most of which do NOT want to undertake the therapy in the first place, and are forced into it. This doesn't go against social justice - this is actively apart of it.

[QUOTE=Guriosity;52169862]Why? If a person is for social justice and supports this passing, they are invalidating the rest of their ideology. Conversion therapy is based on the idea a person can be changed via social engineering (in this case shock therapy) and a person chooses to be gay or not. Opponents of conversion therapy are stating gay people are born that way. The entire premise of social justice (including political correctness) is based on the idea people are not born a certain way. Its based on the tabula rasa (blank slate) concept and thus can be corrected via social engineering methods. If one says one is born gay and must end conversion therapy, they are saying tabula rasa is false, thus saying the entire premise social justice and political correctness is based on is false as well. Pick one.[/QUOTE] This isn't about whether gay people can be come gay or not, it's about this kind of therapy specifically, you're completely missing what the problem with it is.

[QUOTE=Guriosity;52169862]Why? If a person is for social justice and supports this passing, they are invalidating the rest of their ideology. Conversion therapy is based on the idea a person can be changed via social engineering (in this case shock therapy) and a person chooses to be gay or not. Opponents of conversion therapy are stating gay people are born that way. The entire premise of social justice (including political correctness) is based on the idea people are not born a certain way. Its based on the tabula rasa (blank slate) concept and thus can be corrected via social engineering methods. If one says one is born gay and must end conversion therapy, they are saying tabula rasa is false, thus saying the entire premise social justice and political correctness is based on is false as well. Pick one.[/QUOTE] Who even mentioned social justice? This is about gay people potentially being forced to undergo this bollocks therapy because a group of old twats thinks they're sub-human and go against their precious Christian values. This is about giving people the right to choose how they live.

[QUOTE=simkas;52169883]This isn't about whether gay people can be come gay or not, it's about this kind of therapy specifically, you're completely missing what the problem with it is.[/QUOTE] No I am pointing out the hypocrisy. Conversion therapy is a form of social engineering. For such a thing to work, the concept of tabla rasa must be valid. If you are against conversion therapy, but adhere to social justice, you are being contradictory. Either forms of social engineering (including conversion therapy) are unatural, cruel and the assumptions it is based on invalid or they are not. Choose. Which one?

[QUOTE=Guriosity;52169908]No I am pointing out the hypocrisy. Conversion therapy is a form of social engineering. For such a thing to work, the concept of tabla rasa must be valid. If you are against conversion therapy, but adhere to social justice, you are being contradictory. Either forms of social engineering are unatural, cruel and the assumptions it is based on invalid or they are not. Choose. Which one?[/QUOTE] Who in god's name was talking about social engineering? What does that have to do with anything?

[QUOTE=Guriosity;52169908]No I am pointing out the hypocrisy. Conversion therapy is a form of social engineering. For such a thing to work, the concept of tabla rasa must be valid. If you are against conversion therapy, but adhere to social justice, you are being contradictory. Either forms of social engineering (including conversion therapy) are unatural, cruel and the assumptions it is based on invalid or they are not. Choose. Which one?[/QUOTE] It's not a "Form of social engineering" and you're being intentionally dense refusing to see that it isn't

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52169898] This is about giving people the right to choose how they live.[/QUOTE] Not to be a pedant but that's not really true according to your reasoning. It's not about choice it's about being born with a sexual orientation. Conversion therapy as far as I am aware is currently abhorrent but if there was a safe and humane way for it to work and the person did feel discomfort from their sexual orientation then I don't see how you could want to disallow it. It would be the same as not wanting someone to be able to transition.

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52169898]Who even mentioned social justice? This is about gay people potentially being forced to undergo this bollocks therapy because a group of old twats thinks they're sub-human and go against their precious Christian values. This is about giving people the right to choose how they live.[/QUOTE] Read the statement. Social justice is big believer in social engineering. Conversion therapy is a form of social engineering. If you are against conversion therapy, you are saying all forms of social engineering to "Correct" their innate nature is wrong and cruel. Including political correctness.

[QUOTE=Guriosity;52169919]Read the statement. Social justice is big believer in social engineering. Conversion therapy is a form of social engineering. If you are against conversion therapy, you are saying all forms of social engineering to "Correct" their innate nature is wrong and cruel. Including political correctness.[/QUOTE] No it isn't.