• French PM suggests naked breasts represent France better than a headscarf
    161 replies, posted
[b]French PM suggests naked breasts represent France better than a headscarf[/b] Via [url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/30/france-manuel-valls-breasts-headscarf-burkini-ban-row?CMP=fb_gu]The Guardian[/url] _________________________ [quote][img]http://i.imgur.com/6g7ol41.jpg[/img] [i]People look at Eugène Delacroix’s 1830 painting Liberty Leading the People, which Manuel Valls appeared to be referencing.[/i] - - - The French prime minister has drawn criticism for suggesting that naked breasts are more representative of France than a headscarf, in the latest flare-up of the bitter political row over the burkini. Manuel Valls, who clashed with France’s education minister over his support for mayors who have banned full-body swimsuits from beaches, gave a rousing speech on Monday night in which he hailed the bare breasts of Marianne, a national symbol of the French Republic. “Marianne has a naked breast because she is feeding the people! She is not veiled, because she is free! That is the republic!” he thundered at a government rally. The inference that bare breasts were a symbol of France while the Muslim headscarf was problematic sparked scorn from politicians and derision from historians and feminists. Mathilde Larrere, a historian of the French revolution and French citizenship, tweeted: “Marianne has a naked breast because it’s an allegory, you cretin!” She then explained in a long series of tweets that images of Marianne with a naked breast harked back to classical allusions.[/quote] I agree. There are a certain number of values to which they refer, that are unabashedly French, and they argue that a burkini/headscarf/burqa is just not one of them.
I agree but thats no good grounds to ban a piece of clothing. If they're prepared to ban clothing to get closer to their ideal of women being topless then where should the line be drawn? I'm ok with banning of stuff which covers the face but there is absolutely no rational argument for the banning of the "burkini" or headscarfs. Even the face covering thing is shakey I can't think of any solid argument for it beyond not being able to see someones face makes me uneasy, if I saw a person in a balaklava I'd be uncomfortable yet I'd be ok with a motorcyclist helmet, I guess I'm not ok with banning of face covering stuff.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;50977393]I agree but thats no good grounds to ban a piece of clothing. If they're prepared to ban clothing to get closer to their ideal of women being topless then where should the line be drawn? I'm ok with banning of stuff which covers the face but there is absolutely no rational argument for the banning of the "burkini" or headscarfs.[/QUOTE] France is world famous for their topless and nudist beaches. French people take great pride in being so progressive that they don't bat an eye when surrounded by naked people... I can definitely see why they'd consider it an offense having someone dressed up as a scuba diver, under religious pretenses.
Then feel free to stomp on people's right to choose what to wear
There's nothing more French than walking around a nudist beach wearing nothing but a beret, while dipping a croissant into café crème, with Edith Piaf playing in the background. To me, it's such a beautiful country that I can't help but agree with their attempts at keeping what makes France, France. [editline]31st August 2016[/editline] Fun fact: Legend has it that the shape of the croissants represent a celebration after winning over the Ottomans. They both go way back. [quote]The legends include tales that it was invented in Europe to celebrate the defeat of the Umayyad forces by the Franks at the Battle of Tours in 732, with the shape representing the Islamic crescent; that it was invented in Buda; or, according to other sources, in Vienna in 1683 to celebrate the defeat of the Ottomans by Christian forces in the siege of the city, as a reference to the crescents on the Ottoman flags, when bakers staying up all night heard the tunneling operation and gave the alarm. The above-mentioned Alan Davidson proposed that the Islamic origin story originated with 20th century writer Alfred Gottschalk, who gave two versions, one in the Larousse Gastronomique and the other in his [i]History of Food and Gastronomy[/i]: "According to one of a group of similar legends, which vary only in detail, a baker of the 17th century, working through the night at a time when his city (either Vienna in 1683 or Budapest in 1686) was under siege by the Turks, heard faint underground rumbling sounds which, on investigation, proved to be caused by a Turkish attempt to invade the city by tunnelling under the walls. The tunnel was blown up. The baker asked no reward other than the exclusive right to bake crescent-shaped pastries commemorating the incident, the crescent being the sympol of Islam. He was duly rewarded in this way, and the croissant was born. The story seems to owe its origin, or at least its wide diffusion, to Alfred Gottschalk, who wrote about the croissant for the first edition [1938] of the Larousse Gastronomique and there gave the legend in the Turkish attack on Budapest in 1686 version; but on the history of food, opted for the 'siege of Vienna in 1683' version." — Alan Davidson, Oxford Companion to Food This has led to croissants being banned by some Islamic fundamentalists.[/quote] So if legends/word of mouth are to be believed, croissants are a massive fuck you to Islam, in a way.
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;50977428] So if legends/word of mouth are to be believed, croissants are a massive fuck you to Islam, in a way.[/QUOTE] Ban Croissants.
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;50977397]France is world famous for their topless and nudist beaches. French people take great pride in being so progressive that they don't bat an eye when surrounded by naked people... I can definitely see why they'd consider it an offense having someone dressed up as a scuba diver, under religious pretenses.[/QUOTE] "they're wearing too many clothes, I feel so triggered" The context is the recent banning (and unbanning) of the burkini. It's only offensive if you want it to be offensive and if you want it to be offensive then the issue isn't with the person wearing it.
Good, French traditions is something good - especially when boobies are involved. The burkini is an idiotic idea and should be banned, just like the burka and other extremist accessories in general.
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;50977397]France is world famous for their topless and nudist beaches. French people take great pride in being so progressive that they don't bat an eye when surrounded by naked people... I can definitely see why they'd consider it an offense having someone dressed up as a scuba diver, under religious pretenses.[/QUOTE] I'd cause more trouble walking around the streets of Paris in the nude than wearing a burka. Even comparing them is nonsensical.
[QUOTE=plunger435;50977468]I'd cause more trouble walking around the streets of Paris in the nude than wearing a burka. Even comparing them is nonsensical.[/QUOTE] Actually no, you've got it backwards. If you were to walk around Paris nude then you'd turn a few heads but nobody would care. As of the latest terrorist attacks in Paris, if you were to run while wearing a burka then you'd likely trigger a chase even. Why? Because it hides basic recognition i.e. facial expression or body language, so ban it and get it out of today's society.
[QUOTE=plunger435;50977468]I'd cause more trouble walking around the streets of Paris in the nude than wearing a burka. Even comparing them is nonsensical.[/QUOTE] Actually, no. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_nudity[/url] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_nudity#Public_social_nude_events[/url] It's probably ok to walk around topless in the middle of the streets in France/Germany, but a massive no-no in 'murica.
Lets stop oppression by oppressing people into not-wearing a piece of clothing. This is literally what some of you people are saying
[QUOTE=Tools;50977476]Actually no, you've got it backwards. If you were to walk around Paris nude then you'd turn a few heads but nobody would care. As of the latest terrorist attacks in Paris, if you were to run while wearing a burka then you'd likely trigger a chase even. Why? Because it hides basic recognition i.e. facial expression or body language, so ban it and get it out of today's society.[/QUOTE] I must have missed all the female terrorists committing terror attacks in France.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;50977483]The burkini is offensive on its own merit because of its unironic oppression of Muslim women, whether you want to admit it or not. Freedom of religion here collides with basic humanitarian values. They wear it because they were brought up in that enviroment. Therefore the argument of "they choose to wear it" plays no part here, since no choice was being made to begin with. This is a step in the right direction not because its against Islam, but because its against a symbol of oppression. I hate to use all these buzzwords but I hope I got the point across.[/QUOTE] As opposed to a burkini ban being an ironic oppression of muslim women. I understand what you are saying, but I just don't think banning articles of clothing could be considered healthy for liberty and freedom.
Im tempted to ask if any of you could think of a piece of clothing you would be okay with if banned out in public... for example an ammunition belt or something... I sure could, but a burkini... as long as the face is visible and recognizable i dont see any safety issues.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;50977483]The burkini is offensive on its own merit because of its unironic oppression of Muslim women, whether you want to admit it or not. Freedom of religion here collides with basic humanitarian values. They wear it because they were brought up in that enviroment. Therefore the argument of "they choose to wear it" plays no part here, since no choice was being made to begin with. This is a step in the right direction not because its against Islam, but because its against a symbol of oppression. I hate to use all these buzzwords but I hope I got the point across.[/QUOTE] I understand this mentality and feel for it, but i want the right to wear a swastika tshirt and to wear metal shackles if i want to...
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;50977435]"they're wearing too many clothes, I feel so triggered" The context is the recent banning (and unbanning) of the burkini. It's only offensive if you want it to be offensive and if you want it to be offensive then the issue isn't with the person wearing it.[/QUOTE] You're not seeing this the way they do. Let's take for example, football and English football fans. Imagine that for some reason, there's a massive exodus of English people flying to Japan, where they have better job prospects and a coincidentally, the possibility of settling down in Japan. Now we all know how polite and orderly Japan football fans are, they are world wide known for their politeness, cleanliness and respect for public places, like football stadiums - unlike most (not all, *most*) English football fans, who just see it as an opportunity to get drunk, trash everything in their path and be loud as fuck the entire match. Now Japanese football fans are orders of magnitude more respectful, clean and cheerful than English football fans, who are just loud and crass, and prone to cause trouble inside and out of stadiums, compared to Japanese fans. And Japanese people, could very well take offense in all that; not because watching a football match without being a drunk, loud cunt is "The Japanese Way", but because that's just how things are in Japan, and you don't just walk in and tell them how to act and what to do around them; it's always the other way around. So you can't expect these new (hypothetical) English migrants to whine along the lines of: "these fookin japs won't let us enjoy football like we use to in England! We're just cheering* and 'aving a jolly good time with the lads! so what if we 'ave a few more beers**?!" *as in: being too obnoxious by Japanese standards. **as in: getting shitfaced drunk, trashing the place, fighting each other and acting practically like hooligans, to the point more Police is present than usual at the stadiums. You see what I mean? You can't just barge in, and impose your will onto the host country, and expect them to bend to your will. This is what they refer, when they consider the burkini an affront to "The French Way", so to speak. Just my 2 cents.
I mean, at that point why not just ban the whole religion because it is oppressive. It's going to come to that eventually might as well get it out of the way.
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;50977488]Actually, no. [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_nudity[/URL] [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_nudity#Public_social_nude_events[/URL] It's probably ok to walk around topless in the middle of the streets in France/Germany, but a massive no-no in 'murica.[/QUOTE] None of the links you posted say waking around the town square with your dick swinging is socially acceptable in France. It says it's okay in naturist locations which had always been the case. Are you trying to say someone wearing a burka to a mosque would draw more attention than that?
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50977503]How does burkini compare to hooliganism? What kind of an analogy is that? How does burkini bother you? It is clothing For Fucks SAKE[/QUOTE] Can you read my entire post?
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50977497]Muslim women cant have free will because they know no better. We make choices for them because they cant decide whether something is a symbol of oppresion or basic modesty. Got it. I mean, If you ask me personally I dont like burkinis because of said reason, but passing legislature to ban it is 999 levels of hypocrite and stupid. "They were brought up in that enviroment" is not a legally sound argument against free will. Especially for clothing. Fucking clothing.[/QUOTE] By that argument you can escalate and say a person born in captivity and trained and used as a sex slave that chooses to stay in captivity out of fear for the outside world is exercising their free will.
[QUOTE=Megadave;50977502]I mean, at that point why not just ban the whole religion because it is oppressive. It's going to come to that eventually might as well get it out of the way.[/QUOTE] Christian nuns are being oppressed too because they can't/don't want to get their tits out. Should we ban Christianity too?
[QUOTE=Tools;50977466]Good, French traditions is something good - especially when boobies are involved. [B]The burkini is an idiotic idea and should be banned, just like the burka and other extremist accessories in general.[/B][/QUOTE] Apparently now wearing a burka makes you an Islamic extremist?
[QUOTE=plunger435;50977490]I must have missed all the female terrorists committing terror attacks in France.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah that's nice, manipulate my words into sounding as you want them to sound. A burka is a symbol of religion, and the terrorist attacks were also a symbol of religion. Do you see the connection? Either way then it's still an obstruction of your identification, so just like wearing a bike helmet while inside a bank - it should be banned.
i know a non muslim girl who wears headscarves because she thinks they are cute is she being oppressed facepunch???
[QUOTE=plunger435;50977504]None of the links you posted say waking around the town square with your dick swinging is socially acceptable in France. It says it's okay in naturist locations which had always been the case. Are you trying to say someone wearing a burka to a mosque would draw more attention than that?[/QUOTE] As someone who currently lives in the cultural regions you speak of, its not a taboo to walk in the nude here, people will look at you more for not sitting on a towel then actually for being fully nude in public. It rarely happens though, but for example in gymnasiums you can often see people walk naked or at the beach using the public showers and there is not a lot of privacy there... nudity is not really as much an issue as it is in the US.
[QUOTE=RainbowStalin;50977508]Christian nuns are being oppressed too because they can't/don't want to get their tits out. Should we ban Christianity too?[/QUOTE] Exactly, all the burkini banning has done is created either a slippery slope or one hell of a hypocrisy. Why not ban Christian values for the same reason we ban Muslim values?
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;50977500]You're not seeing this the way they do. Let's take for example, football and English football fans. Imagine that for some reason, there's a massive exodus of English people flying to Japan, where they have better job prospects and a coincidentally, the possibility of settling down in Japan. Now we all know how polite and orderly Japan football fans are, they are world wide known for their politeness, cleanliness and respect for public places, like football stadiums - unlike most (not all, *most*) English football fans, who just see it as an opportunity to get drunk, trash everything in their path and be loud as fuck the entire match. Now Japanese football fans are orders of magnitude more respectful, clean and cheerful than English football fans, who are just loud and crass, and prone to cause trouble inside and out of stadiums, compared to Japanese fans. And Japanese people, could very well take offense in all that; not because watching a football match without being a drunk, loud cunt is "The Japanese Way", but because that's just how things are in Japan, and you don't just walk in and tell them how to act and what to do around them; it's always the other way around. So you can't expect these new (hypothetical) English migrants to whine along the lines of: "these fookin japs won't let us enjoy football like we use to in England! We're just cheering* and 'aving a jolly good time with the lads! so what if we 'ave a few more beers**?!" *as in: being too obnoxious by Japanese standards. **as in: getting shitfaced drunk, trashing the place, fighting each other and acting practically like hooligans, to the point more Police is present than usual at the stadiums. You see what I mean? You can't just barge in, and impose your will onto the host country, and expect them to bend to your will. This is what they refer, when they consider the burkini an affront to "The French Way", so to speak. Just my 2 cents.[/QUOTE] Completely different. Holliganism would be banned in Japan because it's already against the law there. The burkinni situation started because they specifically went out of their way to make it a law, and quit pretending it's because of their sense of nudity. P
[QUOTE=plunger435;50977509]Apparently now wearing a burka makes you an Islamic extremist?[/QUOTE] Maybe if you'd pay attention to your middle school studies then you'd know that a lot of women don't get to choose whether or not they want to wear a burka? I don't know what you call that, but last I checked the definition of extremist then it was properly fitting.
[QUOTE=Megadave;50977522]Exactly, all the burkini banning has done is created either a slippery slope or one hell of a hypocrisy. Why not ban Christian values for the same reason we ban Muslim values?[/QUOTE] But... we already did, hence the last papal reformation happened.
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