U.S. Tax Bill May Inspire Cuts Globally, While Fueling Trade Tensions
25 replies, posted
[URL="https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/22/business/tax-bill-global-profits.html"]source[/URL]
[QUOTE]To President Trump and congressional Republicans, the [URL="https://www.nytimes.com/news-event/trump-tax-cut-plan"]overhaul of the tax code[/URL] that became law on Friday will make the United States a better place to do business. To the rest of the world, it has the potential to challenge the global economic order, creating an uneven playing field and setting off a race among countries to cut corporate taxes.
The overhaul is already threatening economic relations, adding to concerns that Mr. Trump is advancing a nationalistic agenda at the expense of other countries.
European leaders this week raised the prospect of a trade battle, implying that they may fight the new tax rules before the World Trade Organization. Chinese officials are readying defensive measures to protect the country’s economy and its competitiveness.
On Friday, Mr. Trump again emphasized his “America First” mantra, saying at a signing ceremony that the tax bill would mean more jobs and investment in the United States. “A lot of things are going to be happening in the U.S.A.,” the president said. “We’re going to bring back our companies. They’ve already started coming back.”[/QUOTE]
This article almost looks like it's just looking for more things to complain about with the tax bill. As far as I know, virtually everyone on both sides of the political spectrum want to see outsourcing go down and for increased productive activity within the country. Yet now people are complaining that the money is going to flow back to the US? If the only way the rest of the world can keep up is by asking us to punish our citizens for doing business, then something is really fucking wrong.
[QUOTE=halofreak472;53015288]This article almost looks like it's just looking for more things to complain about with the tax bill. As far as I know, virtually everyone on both sides of the political spectrum want to see outsourcing go down and for increased productive activity within the country. Yet now people are complaining that the money is going to flow back to the US? If the only way the rest of the world can keep up is by asking us to punish our citizens for doing business, then something is really fucking wrong.[/QUOTE]
Well, there does seem to be actual protectionist bullshit the article brings up. Such as tax breaks for profiting overseas, and discriminatory aspects against foreign firms.
That stuff isn't really merely just punishing our citizens for doing business.
But some of the other stuff, such as the corporate tax rate? Nah that's not really protectionism, and the article is actually a little misleading, since it implies to me that we set it at a very low rate, when really it's only just below the OECD average. As well, it's also near the average EFFECTIVE rate companies were paying before.
[QUOTE=halofreak472;53015288]This article almost looks like it's just looking for more things to complain about with the tax bill. As far as I know, virtually everyone on both sides of the political spectrum want to see outsourcing go down and for increased productive activity within the country. Yet now people are complaining that the money is going to flow back to the US? If the only way the rest of the world can keep up is by asking us to punish our citizens for doing business, then something is really fucking wrong.[/QUOTE]
The tax bill makes a credible case for outsorcing and keeping manufacturing overseas though thanks largely to the insane changes they made to expensing and the shift to a territorial tax system, now they can bring their obscene profits back into the US pretty much well below the tax level US manufacturers can and the weird "don't outsource" tax isn't even written yet and will almost certainly be impossible to enforce in general
US multinationals were already gaming the international trade and tax system to pay no taxes, we just handed them a loaded gun to bring to every capital in europe and asia to negotiate bigger tax breaks and kickback settlements
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;53015393]As well, it's also near the average EFFECTIVE rate companies were paying before.[/QUOTE]
So the average effective rate will be even lower now?
[QUOTE=_Axel;53015780]So the average effective rate will be even lower now?[/QUOTE]
some aspects yes. On its face, companies will pay more taxes this year than they normally do because they have a deadline to bring in their overseas profits if they want to get that much lower rate, so in FY2018 many companies will probably be lowering their expected profits, but after they've hauled in their plunder, and figured out exactly all of the loop holes that have yet to be written (and will still be in the process as the year goes on) You're going to see companies and the stock market really shoot up, which is not a great idea in our already overheated market.
and that's all before major economic blocks respond with their own tax packages.
[QUOTE=halofreak472;53015288]This article almost looks like it's just looking for more things to complain about with the tax bill. As far as I know, virtually everyone on both sides of the political spectrum want to see outsourcing go down and for increased productive activity within the country. Yet now people are complaining that the money is going to flow back to the US? If the only way the rest of the world can keep up is by asking us to punish our citizens for doing business, then something is really fucking wrong.[/QUOTE]
It really doesn't matter if it goes to the US. It doesn't go to the people of the US. It goes straight to the top earners and 1%.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53016091]It really doesn't matter if it goes to the US. It doesn't go to the people of the US. It goes straight to the top earners and 1%.[/QUOTE]
It helps anyone with a brokerage account, 401k/IRA, or pension (public or private).
[QUOTE=_Axel;53015780]So the average effective rate will be even lower now?[/QUOTE]
Maybe, they lost some large deductions tho. And I'm sure the accounting behind this shit is complicated.
[QUOTE=UserDirk580;53016257]It helps anyone with a brokerage account, 401k/IRA, or pension (public or private).[/QUOTE]
If you're living paycheck to paycheck you don't have a 401k, and the way the whole system tends to work nationally only rewards those that can afford to save money away, matching contributions are great in theory but are not helping those that need help the most since they can't make that contribution anyways, unlike the pension system. But then pensions don't really exist for people today outside government work, what funds do exist have been closed off and the new generation of the workforce will be forced to do without.
Besides which the value of a 401k/ira is hypathetical until you are living off of it, the markets will go up and down and sideways in my lifetime and i'll loose, gain, loose and gain money the whole time on paper.
[QUOTE=Sableye;53020561]If you're living paycheck to paycheck you don't have a 401k, and the way the whole system tends to work nationally only rewards those that can afford to save money away, matching contributions are great in theory but are not helping those that need help the most since they can't make that contribution anyways, unlike the pension system. But then pensions don't really exist for people today outside government work, what funds do exist have been closed off and the new generation of the workforce will be forced to do without.
Besides which the value of a 401k/ira is [B]hypathetical[/B] until you are living off of it, the markets will go up and down and sideways in my lifetime and i'll loose, gain, loose and gain money the whole time on paper.[/QUOTE]
Then those people that you referenced need to look for better employment. Might take a while but there are plenty of jobs that you can get so you won't be in that situation. This is regardless of schooling or race or whatever. The individual needs to be responsible for their own path in life. It is not the job of the government to take money from people that have it and give it to people that are too lazy to earn it for themselves. Also before you go on some bullshit tirade about how some people have legitimate reasons for being on government assistance. I am aware and am fine helping them if its legit. The people I am talking about are those that have the energy to bitch that rich people get more and they have less. If you have the energy to do that you have the energy to fill out a job application at a place that you will make more money.
Also you spelled hypothetical wrong.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53016091]It really doesn't matter if it goes to the US. It doesn't go to the people of the US. It goes straight to the top earners and 1%.[/QUOTE]
Then why don't you work to become one instead of complaining about it. Like it or not the 1% are the ones that create the majority jobs for the people. Also most people do get somewhat of a break, at least for a while. Which people that pay in are glad to get. Might not be happy it's not more but it's something.
I also think you are being a bit too cynical. I am sure some of this money will trickle back down. Say for instance one of these big companies decides to build a few new stores. They have determined sales are good, and there are markets they haven't covered yet. So think about how many people you need to contract to build the stores. You need survey teams, someone to do site prep(clear, grade, do soil correction etc.), equipment operators, masons, plumbers, electricians, painters, framers, glass fitters, an architect and many more. Then take that number and multiply it by the people it takes to build ten or so. Well now the stores are built, now what? Have to hire people to run the stores. More jobs. Then a company has to truck goods there. Another few jobs per store plus all the people that keep that company rolling. That product had to come from somewhere, so lets insert more jobs for distribution/warehousing and manufacture. Each one of these steps has more people employed or contracted that support them. If you think about it a small project does lead to a lot of people getting or keeping jobs. Plus we all know a business will manage money much better than the government would.
^Wow, could your post be any more of a cliché? It's complete with "Lazy people leeching off successful people's money", "Just get a better job", "Trickle down" along with typical "temporarily embarrassed billionaires" rhetoric.
[QUOTE=_Axel;53020963]^Wow, could your post be any more of a cliché? It's complete with "Lazy people leeching off successful people's money", "Just get a better job", "Trickle down" along with typical "temporarily embarrassed billionaires" rhetoric.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't invalidate my point.
[QUOTE=Sgt.Sgt;53021005]Doesn't invalidate my point.[/QUOTE]
Considering said clichés are all complete nonsense, yes. Yes it does.
Do you really need people to explain to you why "Just get a better job" isn't necessarily an option when getting a job period is already hard to begin with? Why most unemployed people aren't lazy? Why trickle down economics are bullshit? [I]Why only a select few people can actually become billionaires, and why it requires lots of luck and pre-existing privileges on top of hard work to be achievable?[/I]
[QUOTE=_Axel;53021037]Considering said clichés are all complete nonsense, yes. Yes it does.
Do you really need people to explain to you why "Just get a better job" isn't necessarily an option when getting a job period is already hard to begin with? Why most unemployed people aren't lazy? Why trickle down economics are bullshit? [I]Why only a select few people can actually become billionaires, and why it requires lots of luck and pre-existing privileges on top of hard work to be achievable?[/I][/QUOTE]
Please prove how they are nonsense. It isn't hard to get a job. Just sounds like you are upset that life isn't fair.
[QUOTE=Sgt.Sgt;53021258]Please prove how they are nonsense. It isn't hard to get a job. Just sounds like you are upset that life isn't fair.[/QUOTE]
Jesus, you sound out of touch.
[QUOTE=fulgrim;53021312]Jesus, you sound out of touch.[/QUOTE]
He really doesnt
[QUOTE=fulgrim;53021312]Jesus, you sound out of touch.[/QUOTE]
Once again trying to brush it off instead of answer what I asked.
[QUOTE=Sgt.Sgt;53020800]Then those people that you referenced need to look for better employment. Might take a while but there are plenty of jobs that you can get so you won't be in that situation. This is regardless of schooling or race or whatever. The individual needs to be responsible for their own path in life. It is not the job of the government to take money from people that have it and give it to people that are too lazy to earn it for themselves. Also before you go on some bullshit tirade about how some people have legitimate reasons for being on government assistance. I am aware and am fine helping them if its legit. The people I am talking about are those that have the energy to bitch that rich people get more and they have less. If you have the energy to do that you have the energy to fill out a job application at a place that you will make more money.
Also you spelled hypothetical wrong.
Then why don't you work to become one instead of complaining about it. Like it or not the 1% are the ones that create the majority jobs for the people. Also most people do get somewhat of a break, at least for a while. Which people that pay in are glad to get. Might not be happy it's not more but it's something.
I also think you are being a bit too cynical. I am sure some of this money will trickle back down. Say for instance one of these big companies decides to build a few new stores. They have determined sales are good, and there are markets they haven't covered yet. So think about how many people you need to contract to build the stores. You need survey teams, someone to do site prep(clear, grade, do soil correction etc.), equipment operators, masons, plumbers, electricians, painters, framers, glass fitters, an architect and many more. Then take that number and multiply it by the people it takes to build ten or so. Well now the stores are built, now what? Have to hire people to run the stores. More jobs. Then a company has to truck goods there. Another few jobs per store plus all the people that keep that company rolling. That product had to come from somewhere, so lets insert more jobs for distribution/warehousing and manufacture. Each one of these steps has more people employed or contracted that support them. If you think about it a small project does lead to a lot of people getting or keeping jobs. Plus we all know a business will manage money much better than the government would.[/QUOTE]
Except no, none of that wealth actually trickles down. It just accumulates at the top some more. Trickledown economics has literally never worked. All the aspects of it that are [I]supposed[/I] to stimulate the economy never actually happen and more often than not lead to recessions
The line about big companies creating jobs has always been marketing for an economic scheme that benefits only the already wealthy. It's the longstanding myth of supply side economics, that the rich will generously spread their wealth around for the benefit of everyone through big spending projects and expansion
But that never actually happens. The [I]vast[/I] majority of wealth these big companies accrue under supply side never gets put back into the economy in any way. Most of it is hoarded in offshore accounts and filtered through tax havens and loopholes until it comes to a rest squarely in the 1%'s pockets with as little loss as possible. What doesn't go to their pockets goes to expansion [I]elsewhere[/I]. In places with more favorable tax conditions and cheaper labor. Why expand in the US when you could just outsource to China or India or somewhere else with lax regulations and cheap labor?
Most of the jobs that end up being created by supply side economics aren't even good ones. They're service industry jobs like walmart and fast food chains that refuse to pay one red cent above the minimum wage and treat their workers like shit. And on top of that, these big companies actually kill local economies and the job market when they expand into them. Since they're massive companies with vast amounts of capital to draw on, they can undercut any local competition in the area. Walmart's entire marketing model is built off their low prices, and there's not a lot of smaller businesses that can stay in competition with that for very long. The options become go broke or go broke, and as all the smaller businesses fold, the opportunity for employment shrinks and shrinks, until your choices for employment are basically walmart, walmart, or the fast food joint next to walmart. And god help you if the location doesn't make enough profit for the company and they pull out, which happens distressingly regularly in the rural US where jobs are such a hot button issue
And of course having such a shallow job pool filled with dead end minimum wage customer service jobs fucks things up even more. Housing is expensive. Utilities aren't free. People gotta eat. Working a minimum wage job usually means living paycheck to paycheck because it's nigh impossible to actually save money. You're always one bad day away from falling right back to square one. Car broke down? So long savings! Feeling sick? Better go in to work anyway, you might get fired if you call in too much! After all, there's usually more than enough potential hires to fill the gaps, so why bother taking care of one easily replaceable employee? Serious injury? Sure hope you have insurance! And if you do, better hope that injury is covered, because the cheapest package is all you can barely afford, even if you're working full time as many hours as you can physically stand, and even then that might not be enough to cover everything
And of course, all these people living paycheck to paycheck has a bit of a knock on effect on the economy. Since the large companies aren't reinvesting in the US the way they're supposed to in the ideal trickledown fashion, and all these people are stuck living paycheck to paycheck, there's not a whole lot of profit to be made, which means there's not a whole lot of economic growth to be had. How the hell can there be? Not enough people can afford to go out and be consumers and stimulate the economy. There's not enough time. There's not enough money Sure, people would like to go out and buy new cars and TVs and computers and more expensive, higher quality food. They'd like to go out and get the latest sixty dollar AAA game and watch the latest big Disney movie, but sixty dollars is a lot of groceries, or good chunk of rent money, or bill money, or gas money. Theater food is expensive, and you've gotta pay for getting to the theater in the first place. Which means gas, because public transportation is a rarity in the US. And you might get stuck in traffic, or your car might break down because it's old and you can't afford a new one, not even the slightly newer, slightly less shitty ones on Craigslist. And so the theater just feels like a lot of time and effort for not much reward. An expenditure of time, money, and energy you just don't have, especially coming off five closing shifts in a row that have left you feeling like doing not much more than just going home and sleeping for the day and a half of off time you're getting
So yeah
I don't think you understand poverty or how fucked up trickledown economics actually are
[editline]1st January 2018[/editline]
Really I think that's the biggest flaw in trickledown economics and the weirdest part about its proponents. The part where we're supposed to put absolute trust in these massive corporations to do the right thing for the good of the American people at large. That we're supposed to just trust that once all the regulations are stripped away and they're free to operate however they will they'll keep being jolly good sports and not immediately seek to exploit their position in every possible way to maximize capital gains
I don't understand why private interests are seen as the most trustworthy for improvement of the country but the actual government is seen as being irreparably, unavoidably flawed. As though corruption is just something that happens in a vacuum and something inherent to holding public office, while in reality the most common root of corruption in politics comes from private interests, outside influences, seeking to make it easier for them to accrue even more wealth and power at the expense of others
[QUOTE=Sgt.Sgt;53021258]Please prove how they are nonsense. It isn't hard to get a job. Just sounds like you are upset that life isn't fair.[/QUOTE]
I'm actually in a pretty decent position professionally, thank you very much. But unlike [I]others[/I] I'm not pretentious enough to pretend that it is the result of hard work alone and that circumstances played no part in it whatsoever. And I certainly don't call those who put in as much work but failed regardless "lazy".
[QUOTE=_Axel;53021537]I'm actually in a pretty decent position professionally, thank you very much. But unlike [I]others[/I] I'm not pretentious enough to pretend that it is the result of hard work alone and that circumstances played no part in it whatsoever. And I certainly don't call those who put in as much work but failed regardless "lazy".[/QUOTE]
Just for context, those "lazy" workers i was talking about are 40-50 year old men and women working as contractors at a plant that produces extremely expensive components for a fraction of the pay and with almost no benefits along side full service employees that make 50-60,000$ a year with full healthcare, a ludicrous 401k system, and paid vacation time. Everybody here hangs on with the hope they might get hired on as a full service person to make that big bucks but in reality they are keeping the amount of full service employees flat while dramatically growing their contract force
My cowokers make substantially more than I do and we have very similar positions, I'm not exactly bitter because I have future prospects and I had no work experience when I took it but for most of the people at my plant they have nothing and this is the best they can do
[QUOTE=Sgt.Sgt;53021328]Once again trying to brush it off instead of answer what I asked.[/QUOTE]
You're like a walking talking meme
[QUOTE=Sgt.Sgt;53021328]Once again trying to brush it off instead of answer what I asked.[/QUOTE]
I mean that's literally what you are doing with your whole "just get a better job lol" shtick.
You are ignoring a plethora of contributing factors so you can pin all of a person's problems on poor work ethic or laziness.
It might feel better to pretend that we live in a perfect meritocracy and that anyone doing well must have made all the right choices and put in all the hard work, and conversely that anyone in any kind of shit got there by their own poor choices and lack of discipline- but it's simply not true. That's not how things work.
[QUOTE=Sgt.Sgt;53021258]Please prove how they are nonsense. It isn't hard to get a job. Just sounds like you are upset that life isn't fair.[/QUOTE]
The burden of proof lies on you. You can't just make a bunch of claims with no evidence then demand people provide proof that you're the one that's wrong.
I would agree that getting a job is easier than most people think.
Getting a secure, well-paying one on the other hand...
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.